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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:57:16 PM EDT
After shooting corrosive ammo, I have read that you can spray down your barrel,bolt, and gas system with diluted ?????? to neturalize the corrosive salts.

I can't remember if its diluted vinegar or diluted ammonia or something else.
Does anyone else know?

Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:08:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:24:28 PM EDT
Diluted water.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JBravo223:
I found this link for you...


www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/corrosive/index.asp



Soap and water.
Damn, that seems easy to remember.


Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:23:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:05:00 AM EDT
Clean it with Ballistol. Works for me.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:27:09 AM EDT
1/10 mixture of Ballistol and water will remove the corrosive salts caused by firing corrosive machine gun ammo. At least that's what it says on the Ballistol label. I generally use Windex labeled "Windex with vinegar". Followed by a generous application of Ballistol. I also use Ballistol to clean my black powder rifles. Since I discovered Ballistol I have used nothing else. Never had any rust after using it. Great stuff. Try it, you'll like it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:36:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Diluted water.



I use anhydrous water. It leaves less residue.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 8:50:47 PM EDT by einheit13]
window cleaner with amonia, soap and water, vinager and water, lemon juice and water (they all work great).....then clean as normal. I keep a small plastic oil bottle full of the "blue juice"(windex w/ amonia) in my bag. I run a couple of patches down the bore when I finish shooting, then clean them when I get home as normal. Never had any trouble.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:08:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 9:10:51 PM EDT by MonkeyGrip]
The residue is acidic so use a base. Like ammonia (e.g. windex or dilute ammonia cleaner). The base will neutralize the acid. There isn't many basic solutions commonly avaible, so I'd stick with that, it's commonly recomended in gun cirlcles. Vinegar or lemon juice doesn't sound right to me at all since these solutions are acidic too (so would just make things even more corrosive).
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:36:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 2:07:01 PM EDT by einheit13]

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
The residue is acidic so use a base. Like ammonia (e.g. windex or dilute ammonia cleaner). The base will neutralize the acid. There isn't many basic solutions commonly avaible, so I'd stick with that, it's commonly recomended in gun cirlcles. Vinegar or lemon juice doesn't sound right to me at all since these solutions are acidic too (so would just make things even more corrosive).




We use it (vinager or lemon juice) to stop the alcayds in concrete from eating your skin, aluminum, copper.....it neutralizes the calcium that eats everything. So you stop one form of corrosion with a milder 'acid' which is easier to stop. Amonia will strip the blue from your weapon too, so be carful if you use amonia/water mix. Do not let it sit on blued areas too long.



ETA: cleaning
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:27:25 PM EDT
Neither vinegar nor ammonia will dissolve the POTASSIUM SALTS left in the barrel, which cause the corrosion. Water does that, whether it's the water in Windex, the water in a weak vinegar or ammonia mix, or whatever.

It's not about acids vs bases.

Potassium salts were used as the oxidizer in corrosive primer mixtures.

A quote from exteriorballistics.com for reference:



Corrosive primers used potassium chlorate as the oxidizer in the priming compound. When ignited, the potassium chlorate produced potassium chloride, a compound very similar to common table salt. Like any salt, it attracted and held moisture. This moisture, in turn, caused rusting in very short order. The old frontiersmen had a saying, “the sun must not set on a dirty gun.” This was a direct reference to the absolute necessity of cleaning a gun almost immediately after firing it, because of the corrosion problem. Leaving it for a few days simply was not an option. Once potassium chlorate was identified as the cause in the corrosion problem, it was replaced, leaving us with the “non-corrosive” primers we enjoy today.



This is it guys.. No pH mystery, no magic rust fairy, just salt in the barrel.

So now when you get road salt on your vehicle, what do you use to get it off? Lemon juice?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:36:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 2:54:06 PM EDT by MonkeyGrip]

Originally Posted By einheit13:

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
The residue is acidic so use a base. Like ammonia (e.g. windex or dilute ammonia cleaner). The base will neutralize the acid. There isn't many basic solutions commonly avaible, so I'd stick with that, it's commonly recomended in gun cirlcles. Vinegar or lemon juice doesn't sound right to me at all since these solutions are acidic too (so would just make things even more corrosive).




We use it (vinager or lemon juice) to stop the alcayds in concrete from eating your skin, aluminum, copper.....it neutralizes the calcium that eats everything. So you stop one form of corrosion with a milder 'acid' which is easier to stop. Amonia will strip the blue from your weapon too, so be carful if you use amonia/water mix. Do not let it sit on blued areas too long.

ETA: cleaning



I do not believe that alkaline (basic) products are formed when shooting corrosive primers so that putting acid (vinegar, lemon) in your barrel is only as effective as water and being corrosive itself does not seem like a good idea. Acid is good for neutralization with concrete obviously since concrete formers (lime) are highly basic. No suprise there. If I could get the aeroballisticsonline.com site up I could show that acidic products are mentioned as left by corrosive primers. This is why after researching this issue, I decided to go with the dilute ammonia or dilute ammonia floor cleaner, which is recommended by many. Salts probably are the biggest contributor, thus I use (as many recomend hot dilute windex). Salts aren't "neutralized" though. They're dissolved and washed out. Neutralization is a term for acids and bases.

Dilute windex or dilute ammonia cleaner should have way less active ingredient than Sweets bore-cleaner so it can't be that bad. It's recommended to rinse it out with water afterward anyway.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:45:02 PM EDT
I love these technical discussions. Easiest thing to do is clean with wpter, preferably hot. Dry , then oil with whatever oil you want. Like I said before, I use windex that already has vinegar in it. It comes that way. Then I dry the bore and then swab with Ballistol. According to their literature, Ballistol is derived from coal. It emulsifies with water. It was developed for the German Army way back before WWI. So I figure it worked rather well with the corrosive ammunition of the day. I don't think that any German non-com would have tolerated rust in the bores of the rifles.
Or you could find some of the old GI bore cleaner. I believe that someone else makes a cleaner made to remove corrosive salts.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:15:44 AM EDT
While CLP doesn't neturalize the corrosive residue it does take it into solution so it can be wiped or rinsed out with brake parts cleaner. Which is a lot less messy than using water or a water based solution. Then trying to dry all the metal parts off. I use CLP/brake parts cleaner to clean all my firearms. It keeps the mess to minimum and it works fine cleaning up after firing corrosive ammo.

To clean a AK rifle go to Wal-mart and get from these depts.

Sporting goods dept.
A pump spray bottle of Break-Free CLP www.break-free.com/
A 30cal and a 20 gauge bore brushes

Automotive dept.
A can of brake parts cleaner
A set of brushes or brush with brass or steel brissles. like this
www.woodcarvingstore.com/RotaryToolAccessories/CleaningBrushes.asp

Housewares dept.
roll of paper towels

Drug dept.
A new tooth brush.

When you get home swap out your new tooth brush for your old one.Spray down all the parts of your rifle with CLP and let it sit for 15 minuites. Use your old tooth brush to scrub the inside of the receiver and parts. Use the brass/steel brush on the gas piston. It will take several applications of CLP and scrubbing to get heavy amounts of carbon off the gas piston. A wire wheel in a electric drill can be used to cut down on the amount of scrubbing needed. Use the 30cal brush on the bore and the 20 gauge brush on the gas tube/gas block. Once clean put 4 paper towels in the bottom of the bag you brought the stuff home from Wal-mart in. Hold the parts over the bag and use the brake parts cleaner to rinse everything off. Brake parts cleaner removes everything and leaves no residue. Spray a 4"x4" piece of rag and one patch with CLP. Rub the rag on every part inside and out to lube/protect it and run the patch through the bore. Put the rag and patch in a zip lock bag to use the next time you clean your rifle. Make sure to wipe the gas piston and the inside of the gas tube and gas block. The CLP will get into the pores of the metal and not let the carbon stick tight. So the next time you clean your rifle the brass/steel brissle brush will not be needed only the tooth brush. Take the bag with the paper towels which have absorbed all the brake parts cleaner and dirt outside or in the garage to let the bpc evaporate then throw it away.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:47:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Diluted water.



How do you dilute water?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:17:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Woodsman30350:

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Diluted water.



How do you dilute water?



Easy, just add water.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:43:14 AM EDT
So the general consensus is that there is no general consensus?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:57:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By webtaz99:

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Diluted water.



I use anhydrous water. It leaves less residue.





LMAO
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:09:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Neither vinegar nor ammonia will dissolve the POTASSIUM SALTS left in the barrel, which cause the corrosion. Water does that, whether it's the water in Windex, the water in a weak vinegar or ammonia mix, or whatever.

It's not about acids vs bases.

Potassium salts were used as the oxidizer in corrosive primer mixtures.

------------

This info is very helpful. You are correct: water is essential.

I would add one thing that I vaguely remember from an old chemistry class. (It was thirty years ago.) KCl (Potassium chloride) reacts with NH4OH (ammonia) to produce NH4Cl (ammonium chloride) and water. Water is essential for washing the chemical salts out of the barrel. NH4Cl washes out more easily than KCl and is less 'hydroscopic' meaning that it absorbs water less than KCl.

You may wish to use an ammonia solution at the range at the end of a shooting session and follow up with two day's cleaning at home with hot soapy water. The advantage is that you get most of the KCl out of the barrel at the range and hot soapy water at home is not carcinogenic like the original GI bore cleaner. --- Besides, you have an excuse to handle your firearms for two more days.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:29:27 PM EDT
I shower with my AK daily !!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:36:21 AM EDT
Anybody know just what is the chemical make-up of the old GI bore cleaner. I still have a few cans of it left.
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