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Posted: 6/15/2003 1:14:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 1:15:34 PM EDT by 1179]
well guys i have my 5.45's i'm now getting the 7.62~39mm bug,

i have some questions, what is the bullet
drop on the 7.62~39mm. "i heard at 300 meter's it drops all most the full highth of a man.what are groups like at 200meters? do they sell tracer ammo for the 7.62~39mm. thanks guys.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 1:37:58 PM EDT
With the standard sights zeroed for 300 meters and the rearsight set at 1, you will experience a large bullet drop when shooting a target at a known distance of 300 meters.

That is why you have an adjustable rearsight, put it on 3 and you'll be fine.

The first position marked (A) on my Hungarian(might differ on other AK's) is a position that raises the rear sight to 300 meters and is basicly the combat setting for targets at unknown distances. A factor most of us won't have to overcome.

But to you original question, yes the 7,62 x 39 has a great arc of flight. It's not as flat as say a 5.56 x 45 mm bullet
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 3:30:06 PM EDT
Kuiper descibed it pretty well. If you want exact balistic drop charts I will look one up for you.

The round is very obsolete as was designed for warfare in 1945.

That is not to say it is an ineffective round, just look at all the wars it has been in. It only punches a .30 caliber hole through a person where as the smaller rounds use tumbling and / or fragmentation to do their job.

It does have a much greater drop than the 5.45.
Look at the sights on the two rifles. The 7.62 only goes to 800meters, the 5.45 goes to 1,000.

They do sell tracers, best place to find them is a gun show. I know www.ammunitionstore.com had some for sale on their specials page last week. (Bottom of the center row.)
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:13:24 PM EDT
I think this might be what you are looking for.
headsbunker.nothingbutguns.com/html/article_trajectory.html
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:39:56 PM EDT
1179, I don't know if this helps, but I sight my AKs on a 5" shoot n see target at 100 yds on the 1 setting, I use a center hold on a plate (dozer tread plate) at 250 with the sight on the 3. Can wack it every shot if I take my time.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 11:41:58 AM EDT
ober, the link you gave me doesn't work. thank you guys for all your help. i'd be lost if it wasn't for yall.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 11:42:33 AM EDT
ober i got the link to go through thanks bro!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 12:19:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By plateshooter:
1179, I don't know if this helps, but I sight my AKs on a 5" shoot n see target at 100 yds on the 1 setting, I use a center hold on a plate (dozer tread plate) at 250 with the sight on the 3. Can wack it every shot if I take my time.



You must have tought this to Waldo. He is the only person I have ever lost to (except that one time to RS39 when I was shooting at the wrong set of targets and had my sights on the battle sight setting)

Waldo kicks my arse big time every time I go against him.

1179, hope that helps. I can pull acctual bullet drop out of a book if you need that.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:17:59 PM EDT
i would like to know ober when you get a chance.
thanks
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:34:29 PM EDT
ober, Waldo and I shoot almost every Sunday together when he's not working 7 days a week.
We start at 250 yds for the plates. He uses an AR with a 762X39 upper, with a JP trigger in his lower. That thing is REALLY accurate. I get him once in a while with my SAR and Kobra, but not too often. (hint) if you get the white plates, you have a better chance against him :)
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:44:15 PM EDT
Hell, I would love to shoot that much. Thats a great advantage right there.

I'll keep the white plates in mind if I can make it next weekend. Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:33:18 AM EDT
Oberschutze:

In your statement about only punching .30 caliber holes while other bullets use tumbling and fragmentation-is not entirely correct:there are some 7.62x39 bullets out there that are somewhat nasty and have a very early yaw cycle (like a 5.45mm) in both lead and steel core that they were designed in the 50's and 60's.

Hinein
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:22:45 AM EDT
KDFM, yes, you are correct. The Yugoslavia ammo has that effect, but is now hard to find.

There are reports that the HP Barnaul will do this, but I remain unconvinced until I see this for myself.

The vast majority of this type of ammo will act as I have stated, and I was trying to not be confusing.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:09:20 AM EDT
what are the chances of getting some testing done on the barnel hp
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:19:00 AM EDT
Is this the Silver Bear HP?

There are several new types / brands comming out right now. I will try to collect them and add to the origional tests after the 5.45 testing.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:28:50 AM EDT
sweet i'm foaming at the mouth for the 5.45 testing
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:51:47 AM EDT
It will be sometime after Bulletfest.

We even have some real Russian military ammo to test against.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:29:29 PM EDT
sweet
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:39:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:42:38 PM EDT
Concerned about little holes? Shoot the wolf 154g SP's. Big holes.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 10:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2003 10:27:54 PM EDT by the-real-Yoda]
here is the traj. for 762x39 FMJ-BT (Wolf ,G-Tiger ,klimovsk ,chinesePS SC) from a 16"B . the hollowpoint versions of the above are only some few inches lower/slower at 600M , so theyre almost the same .

Vel. @15ft.-2311fps , B.C.-.196 (G5) , temp.55.8F , altit-900ft.

0 - 2324fps / drop -1.9"
109-2036fps / drop +9.9"
218-1764" " / " "+11.8"
327-1520" " / " "+00.2" (328yrd zero / 300M)
436-1311" " / " "-29.4"
545-1140" " / " "-83.1"
654-1033" " / " "-168.0"
763-969 " " / " "-292.5"
872-917 " " / " "-460.0"

the rearsite battle setting isnt for 300M but 270M and will hit about 6 inches lower than the 300 ( '3' ) setting and rise about 9-10 inches inbetween 0 to 270M. sofar every 762AKs' rearsite seems cut for FMJ-BT except the yugos' , even from countries that used M67 .
this only matters beyond 400M . if you want to hit stuff farther than that , you need to use M43 FMJ-BT or, the temp. has to be 100F+ with M67 FMJ-flatbase .

all the M67 shape bullets yaw reliably in flesh&blood , not just the yugo . so do the shorter US bullet types if they dont expand . the Wolf FMJ-BT is the improved type with airspacetip and it is a YAW monster in flesh (or water or jello). what is more is that it dont 'tumble' , it turns sideways and rotates , all the way through ... everytime , without fail , within 4.5" after flesh contact it is sideways . except that beyond 400M and farther it may only tumble .

how do i know all this you ask ?

i am the real Yoda - ask me and i'll tell all !

Link Posted: 6/24/2003 11:48:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 12:01:25 PM EDT by obershutze916]

Originally Posted By the-real-Yoda:
here is the traj. for 762x39 FMJ-BT (Wolf ,G-Tiger ,klimovsk ,chinesePS SC) from a 16"B . the hollowpoint versions of the above are only some few inches lower/slower at 600M , so theyre almost the same .

Vel. @15ft.-2311fps , B.C.-.196 (G5) , temp.55.8F , altit-900ft.

0 - 2324fps / drop -1.9"
109-2036fps / drop +9.9"
218-1764" " / " "+11.8"
327-1520" " / " "+00.2" (328yrd zero / 300M)
436-1311" " / " "-29.4"
545-1140" " / " "-83.1"
654-1033" " / " "-168.0"
763-969 " " / " "-292.5"
872-917 " " / " "-460.0"



We found that bullet POI and drop were different for each riffle shot.


the rearsite battle setting isnt for 300M but 270M


All of my manuals say 300 or 350M


how do i know all this you ask ?
i am the real Yoda - ask me and i'll tell all !



Quoted directly from Fackler:

Soviet 7.62x39mm - The Soviet AK-47 Kalashnikov fires a full-metal-jacketed, boat-tail bullet that has a copper-plated steel jacket, a large steel core, and some lead between the two. In tissue, this bullet typically travels for about 26cm point-forward before beginning significant yaw. This author observed, on many occasions, the damage pattern shown in Fig. 2 while treating battle casualties in Da Nang, Vietnam (1968). The typical path through the abdomen caused minimal disruption; holes in organs were similar to those caused by a non-hollow-point handgun bullet. The average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctuate entrance and exit wound with minimal intervening muscle disruption.

More: Yugoslav 7.62x39mm - The Yugoslav copper-jacketed, lead-core, flat-base bullet, even when fired from the same Kalashnikov assault rifle, acts very differently in tissue. It typically travels point-forward for only about 9cm before yawing. Due to the lead core, this bullet flattens somewhat as it yaws, squeezing a few small lead fragments out at its open base, but this does not add significantly to its wounding potential. Referring to the wound profile of the Soviet AK-47 bullet (Fig. 2) and blotting out the first 17cm of the projectile path will leave a good approximation of what one might expect from this bullet.

Since this bullet would be travelling sideways through most of its path in an abdominal wound, it would be expected to cut a swath over three times the dimension made by the bullet travelling point forward. In addition to the larger hole in organs from the sideways-travelling bullet, the tissue surrounding the bullet path will be stretched considerably from temporary cavitation. Actual damage from the stretch of cavitation can vary from an almost explosive effect, widely splitting a solid organ such as the liver, or a hollow one such as the bladder if it is full at the time it is hit, to almost no observable effect if the hollow organs (such as intestines) when hit contain little liquid and/or air. The exit wound may be punctate or oblong, depending on the bullet's orientation as it struck the abdominal wall at the exit point. The exit wound could be stellate if sufficient wounding potential remains at this point on the bullet path. The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctate but the exit wound will probably be stellate, measuring up to 11 cm from the tips of opposing splits. The stellate exit wound results from the temporary cavity simply stretching the skin beyond its breaking point. These stellate wounds generally bleed very little. Small-to medium-sized vessels are certainly cut or torn, but the temporary
cavity tearing action generally stimulates the tiny muscles in the vessel walls to constrict and clots will form in their open ends, limiting blood loss. Being wide open, these wounds tend to drain and heal amazingly well even in situations of limited surgical resources. This increased tissue disruption of the leg will, of course, temporarily limit the mobility of the person hit to a greater extent than wounds causing less tissue disruption.



Ok, I'll bite, how / what do you know?
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 12:39:09 PM EDT
OBER CAN WE BUY THE YUGO STUFF HERE IN THE STATES?
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 12:53:50 PM EDT
Yes. Last year, about this time last year to be exact, it was common on the market. I have several cases of it. Some is really nice, some is pretty crappy.

The stuff on stripper clips is corrosive, and the stuff in boxes NOT on strippers is non-corrosive.

Beware, the last case in boxes that I picked up had been repackaged, and had over 10 different headstamps. It should all work the same, but must be treated as corrosive.

There should still be some at gun shows if you look around.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:51:02 PM EDT
thanks for the heads up ober, i'm an ak junky now
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:05:14 PM EDT
Don't worry, it happens to the best of us. I was strictly a Mauser guy before I met Campy.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 7:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 7:22:28 PM EDT by the-real-Yoda]
*"We found that bullet POI and drop were different for each riffle shot."*

you are confuseing the load/firearm interaction with trajectory . in AK type weapons the piston-carrier lay higher above the barrel than with any other handheld rifle . its not so much barrel harmonics as it is that this high line exerts more leverage on the barrel , before bullet muzzel-exit . variations in the pressurecurve (between various brands and types)have a (more) drastic effect on exactly WHERE the muzzel is pointed as the bullet exits. this can give the illusion that one load shoots flater than another when in reality it likely is exerting slightly less portpressure - not 'bumping' the barrel down as much before exit .
to prove this to yourself , use an AK with a scope rail attached , pick three loads that give the widest POA/POI
variation and fire a 3 shot group of each WITHOUT the scope ,through the open sites at 100M or something . then , with the scope attacted but , AIMING with the opensites at the same setting as at first . see what happens with 3/3shot groups . then attach a 4/5lb. weight to the top of the scope , fire another 3shot group of each with the open sites as before.
the only thing to do about this is to pick a load that works well in YOUR AK , buy a bunch of that/site in withit , and kentuckywindage-elevate anything else you mess with . or writedown the sightcorrections for differing loads and try too re-set them as needed , a very difficult thing to do on an AK.

the actual trajectory of any bullet is a close mathmatical certinty of X (b.c.) @Y (velocity)= Z(trajectory)at any pecuiar atmospheric condition.


*"All of my manuals say 300 or 350M"*

all of them are wrong . the original soviet('50s) method of sighting in an AK was to shoot at a target @100M , with the rearsite on '3' , and ajust the frontsite so POI was aprox +10" above POA (+maybe a little) and centered. they had a special target just for this , and it zeros the weapon at 300M on the '3'. gives a traj on 'battle' that is a 270M zero riseing (hardly) higher than +9" above LOS too 270 , and dropping to -6" by 300M. or , no lower than -9" by 313M. a more workable setting for close to mediumrange cambat than the +12.5" to +13" traj. hight on '3' .
however , if you were to sitein and zero A load at 300M (not yards) on '3' , you would then see the groups drop about -6" from that on 'battle'.
siteing in this way gives a more correct match of rearsite range settings at 4-600M too .
the commies rarely used the '1' and '2' settings.



*"Quoted directly from Fackler:"*

Fackler showed test results from chinesePS STEELCORE ammo and russian STEELCORE .545 ammo.

Facklers test-graph for the .545 RUSSIAN SC ammo is very correct , a timless work of science . but it in no way corresponds to what the CIVILIAN production ammo WE get now in Wolf and Barnaul .545 , IMPROVED .545 , airspacetip that shifts the bullets ballancepoint farther rearward ,but no ridged SC .

do any of you remember what Mr.MTK said in the interview on the HISTORYCHANNEL ? about that they would be better off with the IMPROVED 762 (in his opinion). Wolf , G-tiger , and klimovsk all make the IMPROVED 762x39 , but due to our laws , can only import ammo made for CIVILIAN consumption . no steelcore .

these act radically different than the milspec ammo .

you dont have to just take my word for it !whant me to tell/show you how YOU can see for yourself ? you cant test for the exact volumetric damage done to flesh&blood without some expensive equipment , like in laboritory controled jello , but you can test for bullet YAW fairly simply , with common things .

OH , i almost forgot , credit is due JBM ballistics for the trajectories from the first post . i couldnt do all that math! .
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:09:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 7:56:15 AM EDT by obershutze916]

Originally Posted By obershutze916
We found that bullet POI and drop were different for each riffle shot.




origionally Posted by The-Real-Yoda
you are confuseing the load/firearm interaction with trajectory . in AK type weapons the piston-carrier lay higher above the barrel than with any other handheld rifle. its not so much barrel harmonics as it is that this high line exerts more leverage on the barrel , before bullet muzzle-exit. variations in the pressurecurve (between various brands and types)have a (more) drastic effect on exactly WHERE the muzzel is pointed as the bullet exits. this can give the illusion that one load shoots flater than another when in reality it likely is exerting slightly less portpressure - not 'bumping' the barrel down as much before exit .



Irrelevant. Even if true, and it sounds like BS to me, it still does not change the fact that POI is different. What may or may not cause it does not matter. The fact that it happens is all that is of concern. This is common with all weapons. No two guns will ever shoot to the same POI with the same ammo. Some may be close, but never the same.


to prove this to yourself , use an AK with a scope rail attached , pick three loads that give the widest POA/POI
variation and fire a 3 shot group of each WITHOUT the scope ,through the open sites at 100M or something . then , with the scope attacted but , AIMING with the opensites at the same setting as at first. see what happens with 3/3shot groups.



We did do testing with both scoped and open sights, the loads that printed high open sights still printed high scoped and vice versa.



then attach a 4/5lb. weight to the top of the scope , fire another 3shot group of each with the open sites as before.


Why would I do something like this? This is adding an external condition to the testing that does not bear any relavence in real world shooting conditions.


the only thing to do about this is to pick a load that works well in YOUR AK, buy a bunch of that/site in with it , and kentuckywindage-elevate anything else you mess with . or writedown the sightcorrections for differing loads and try too re-set them as needed , a very difficult thing to do on an AK.


This would hold standard with almost any rifle / caliber in the world.
Besides, it is an AK, not a sniper rifle, worrying about sight corrections is a waste of time. In combat, you can change your sights, I will be shooting back.


the actual trajectory of any bullet is a close mathmatical certinty of X (b.c.) @Y (velocity)= Z(trajectory)at any pecuiar atmospheric condition.


Yes, in lab conditions. Real world conditions such as shooter error, fouled barrel, etc will change this.



*"All of my manuals say 300 or 350M"*

all of them are wrong. the original soviet('50s) method of sighting in an AK was to shoot at a target @100M , with the rearsite on '3' , and ajust the frontsite so POI was aprox +10" above POA (+maybe a little) and centered. they had a special target just for this , and it zeros the weapon at 300M on the '3'. gives a traj on 'battle' that is a 270M zero riseing (hardly) higher than +9" above LOS too 270 , and dropping to -6" by 300M. or , no lower than -9" by 313M. a more workable setting for close to mediumrange cambat than the +12.5" to +13" traj. hight on '3' .
however , if you were to site in and zero A load at 300M (not yards) on '3' , you would then see the groups drop about -6" from that on 'battle'.
siteing in this way gives a more correct match of rearsite range settings at 4-600M too .
the commies rarely used the '1' and '2' settings.



I guess all the books and manuals are wrong and you are right.
Besides, you are making this too difficult. Sight the rifle in for 100M, and adjust your sight as range would dictate and you should be close enough.

BTW I always changed my sights every time depending on conditions. Battle sights are just fine for most Soviet or other conscript armies.




*"Quoted directly from Fackler:"*

Fackler showed test results from chinesePS STEELCORE ammo and russian STEELCORE 5.45 ammo.



Proof?


Facklers test-graph for the 5.45 RUSSIAN SC ammo is very correct, a timless work of science. but it in no way corresponds to what the CIVILIAN production ammo WE get now in Wolf and Barnaul 5.45 , IMPROVED 5.45, airspacetip that shifts the bullets ballance point farther rearward, but no ridged SC .


SO?


do any of you remember what Mr.MTK said in the interview on the HISTORYCHANNEL ? about that they would be better off with the IMPROVED 7.62 (in his opinion). Wolf , G-tiger , and klimovsk all make the IMPROVED 7.62x39 , but due to our laws , can only import ammo made for CIVILIAN consumption . no steelcore .


I an sure MK was mad that they messed with his design. Most designers do get mad when someone changes it against their recomendations. If you are using the History Channel as a resource, I would recomend you try another. They are notoriously bad for the details.



you dont have to just take my word for it! want me to tell/show you how YOU can see for yourself ? you cant test for the exact volumetric damage done to flesh&blood without some expensive equipment , like in laboritory controled jello, but you can test for bullet YAW fairly simply, with common things.


No, I,ll pass. The fact that I have spent more time in this post correcting your grammar, spelling, and decimal points (and still havent fixed it all) leads me to doubt your knowlegde of the scientific process. Its 5.45, not .545. Don't worry, I fixed it for you.


OH , i almost forgot , credit is due JBM ballistics for the trajectories from the first post . i couldnt do all that math! .



Who are they, what credentials, what conditons, how many test rifles, how many ammunition types, what was the control?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:49:21 AM EDT
oh well , have a nice time .... i tried
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 12:02:59 PM EDT
We all more than welcome your input on this forum, but when you come here throwing around stats and such without proof or background of any kind, it just comes across in a bad light.

I welcome any further input, but would also welcome something to back it with.


Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:27:24 PM EDT
i agree lets see some resource's
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:16:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:24:40 PM EDT
Good links, extreemly close to what Fackler said, just put in more simple terms.

What forum is that? I don't recognize it.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:05:27 PM EDT
www.tacticalforums.com

I'm a bit curious about the 7.62 v. 5.45 debate.
I went 7.62 for these reasons.

1. The 7.62 is made in America and can be found in most every store that sells ammo.

2. In a TSHTF scenario the 7.62 is a better all around hunting round.

3. Less deflection from foliage.

4. Reports on other forums (reportedly first hand) of the 7.62 having greater knock down (stopping) power.

5. Can purchase steel core, tracer, and incendiary.

6. Reports like on the site listed above of the newer 7.62 having quick tumble rates and even fragmenting ability in the more exotic rounds.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:09:58 PM EDT
That other forum is tacticalforums.com. DocGKR is Doctor Gary Roberts who worked/studied with Fackler (I don't know the exact relationship) and has been president of the IWBA. It's a great forum with a lot of very good information.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:21:21 AM EDT
Sorry Ober. I did not mean to cause confusion. I like the steel core that tumbles early my self. I will be involved in a few gel tests myself in the near future to see what else is good for my protection.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:00:04 PM EDT
No confsuion at all. Please post your reults when you get them.


After a long conversation about the above, I have found that the proper Soviet sight in method does consist of two squares, one for 100M, and the other for the battle sight setting.

I still hold that simply setting in your POI at 100M and useing your range adjustment is more than fine for almost any user, but the Soviet method is as stated above.

Sorry guys, I'm not perfect.......just ask my wife, she'll tell you.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 10:23:30 AM EDT
Well, hopefully one day I will dig up an AK zeroing target I have been promised a few-but none have yet been delivered.....go figure. I also have a translated Soviet manual on the AK and I'll have to look up their procedures for zeroing agian but I thought it was done at 100M but like I said I'll have to check.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 6:55:08 AM EDT
Ok-from what I have been able to ascertain from the manual, the info that has been put forward about setting the sights at "3" at 100M and firing is for accuracy control only-not for zeroing but it is a little hazy there, I have always zeroed at 100 with the sight setting on "1" then I set to battle sight zero and it is good to 340 roughly, but is it the correct way-I cannot say for sure but it works for me.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:44:44 AM EDT
That's pretty much how I do it. For us civilians it is all you really need.I think Tantal has a picture of one of the targets on his site. I will try to dig it up.


Link Posted: 6/30/2003 4:00:47 PM EDT
Just for some clarification, our biggest differences in POI came between 2 different SAR1 rifles with ammo from the same box.
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