Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 3/22/2006 3:08:57 AM EDT
I heard that you can only build one gun per year for yourself. I was wondering if this is true. I did not see anything on the ATF website about a limit.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:10:13 AM EDT
Wow, if it's a limit of 1 build a year for ourselves, then there are alot of convits on this board.

Not sure what the limit is, if there is even a limit.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:29:06 AM EDT
nobody told me about any limits, i could be in real trouble!
I've never heard of any limits, if you keep them--if you start selling them, then your manufacturing, and thats a whole other story.--

Now get out there, and start building!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:24:54 PM EDT
i was told its 3 per year by more than one dealer/manu
but that was building your own rec and has nothan to do with 100% rec's


but i dont know if its true or total bs
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:54:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By socandyman:
i was told its 3 per year by more than one dealer/manu
but that was building your own rec and has nothan to do with 100% rec's


but i dont know if its true or total bs



If it's true then I know a lot of outlaws.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:55:38 PM EDT
If you are simply using a 100% receiver, then i don't think you are "building" a gun. The 'gun' 'firearm' is the receiver. right?

repair/replace/assemble all the parts ya want on 100% receivers? Beats the heck out of me but I'm not too worried about it. Shoot, my problem isn't building too many, it's having too many to build!

I'm more worried about my wife finding out than the goberment!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:05:45 PM EDT
Limits:

* Building from a < 80% receiver - in this case, you end up with a gun the feds know nothing about, which is why a lot of people like to build them, as well as the feeling of acomplishment of building a gun practically from scratch. You can't sell these guns - ever! - and there is a limit of one per year. there *may* be state laws preventing you from building these, or requiring you to register them.

* Building from a 100% receiver - in this case, the feds treat the receiver as a firearm. You will go through an FFL to get it, tax will have been paid on it, and the feds know very well that you have it (or at least can find out pretty easily). You can build as many of these as you want, with a couple of caveats: they should mainly be for your own use. if you build too many for family and friends, or even joe on the street the BATFE may decide that you are trading in arms -- for which you should have a license. However, they are (for the BATFE) reasonable about this, and won't go after you for making a couple for friends/family. Your state may have an N guns per month limit, in which case you won't be able to buy more than that limit of receivers.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:02:35 PM EDT
80% or 100%, it doesn't make a difference. You are only limited in how many you may build by your bank account. There is absolutely no law limiting how many you may build. You also may sell a build on a 80% receiver as long as it is marked according to the Federal regulations. Most importantly, 80% or 100%, you may not build for the purpose of resale without the proper licensing.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:08:08 PM EDT

You can't sell these guns - ever! - and there is a limit of one per year


I expect to see all the homebuilders on this site in jail then.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:28:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PhilipPeake:
Limits:

* Building from a < 80% receiver - in this case, you end up with a gun the feds know nothing about, which is why a lot of people like to build them, as well as the feeling of acomplishment of building a gun practically from scratch. You can't sell these guns - ever! - and there is a limit of one per year. there *may* be state laws preventing you from building these, or requiring you to register them.-------WRONG

* Building from a 100% receiver - in this case, the feds treat the receiver as a firearm. You will go through an FFL to get it, tax will have been paid on it, and the feds know very well that you have it (or at least can find out pretty easily). You can build as many of these as you want, with a couple of caveats: they should mainly be for your own use. if you build too many for family and friends, or even joe on the street the BATFE may decide that you are trading in arms -- for which you should have a license. However, they are (for the BATFE) reasonable about this, and won't go after you for making a couple for friends/family. Your state may have an N guns per month limit, in which case you won't be able to buy more than that limit of receivers.





Wrong Philip just plain wrong on most of your points.
It's been a while since I've seen a post so misinformed. There is no statute (Federal) that states ( or even suggests ) how many builds you may complete per year. READ THE REGS! You need to read the Federal regs, quite listening the the gunshow BS, I had a FFL dealer tell me that if I built a gun it MUST have a serial no. WRONG, it is only suggested by the ATF that it have a serial no. so it can be sought after in the event of its theft.

What IS legislated is what you can/cannot do with those builds. If you are building them to sell them, you are in violation of the law, in that your income, or part of it, is derived from the manufacture of firearms, thereby making you a "manufacturer of firearms". Without a license, you are subject to all kinds of nasty stuff. Even if you use a 100% receiver and you build a gun for someone else, they may try to get you for providing gunsmithing services without a license, and yes you need a license to be a gunsmith.

You may build a AK or other gun from an flat or 80% receiver, and later sell it, IF you apply for a "Makers Permit" which costs $35 dollars, I had to call the ATF office in Atlanta for that info. It must however have a serial no. and other info. Therefore, YES according to Federal law anyone may make and sell a gun made from either a 80% or 100% receiver. Just don't try to do it too often, if they think you trying to make some cash, your in trouble.

If you DO build one, and eventually sell it, there is nothing illegal about it, however there is legislation that states that it must be stamped or stenciled .003" deep by .125" deep and tall letters with your name and city/state and a serial number... I.E:
J. Doe
Mycity, ST
SN a1

There is nothing stated about the location of your markings, other than a "conspicuous location" and the depth and height of your markings/stampings. The Serial number is "suggested" that it be an alpha-numeric combination (letter AND number), and non-repeating to the manufacturer.

If you build one, you'd be wise to keep a record of the date and details of the gun as a part of some form of permanant record in your personal files.

Everyone, needs to read the regs. or call or write your local ATF office if you have questions.
So to recap,
NO LIMIT TO NO. OF BUILDS ANYWHERE IN THE FEDERAL REGS.
YES YOU MAY SELL A GUN MADE FROM A 80% RECEIVER IF YOU GET A MAKERS PERMIT
however, with regard to the personal liability involved with selling a gun you've made, I wouldn't do it, what if they blow it up due to a bad reload and try to sue you for the loss of their face? You will probably loose.
YOU SHOULD ONLY REALLY "ASSIST" OTHERS WITH BUILDING FROM 100% RECEIVERs TO PREVENT BEING CALLED A GUNSMITH or PROVIDING GUNSMITH SERVICES IF YOU AREN'T LICENSED.

But hey, why trust a bunch of guys on the internet with so much misinformation out there, read the regs yourself!
No no. of builds limited http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf
More info. here on this thread http://1919a4.com/cgi-bin/noncgi/Forum1/HTML/007092.html
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:52:02 AM EDT
You can only sell one build a year that you built from anything less than an 100% receiver. No serial number is required to sell it, however FFL's will not except it without one so unless you do a FTF sale you must engrave it to specs.

That doesnt mean you can go out and buy 200 100% receivers, build them up just to sell, thats considered a business and requires a FFL.

Basically without an FFL it is like a not for profit deal.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:18:15 AM EDT

What about the serial # on the trunion? For example, all of my AKs have serial's on the trunion but no serial on the receiver. Why does a home builder need to put an additional (different) serial on the receiver?

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:51:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mykrowyre:
What about the serial # on the trunion? For example, all of my AKs have serial's on the trunion but no serial on the receiver. Why does a home builder need to put an additional (different) serial on the receiver?




Because the ATF considers the receiver to be the actual firearm.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:25:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By mykrowyre:
What about the serial # on the trunion? For example, all of my AKs have serial's on the trunion but no serial on the receiver. Why does a home builder need to put an additional (different) serial on the receiver?




Because the ATF considers the receiver to be the actual firearm.



Then what about my SAR-1 that only is serialized on the trunnion?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:36:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1BMF:
You can only sell one build a year that you built from anything less than an 100% receiver. No serial number is required to sell it, however FFL's will not except it without one so unless you do a FTF sale you must engrave it to specs.

That doesnt mean you can go out and buy 200 100% receivers, build them up just to sell, thats considered a business and requires a FFL.

Basically without an FFL it is like a not for profit deal.



Wrong about not needing a serial no. on a 80% receiver if your going to sell it, damn, you are going to get someone in trouble. Here's a portion of the info. from a letter to the ATF in one of the links I posted. Guess didn't bother to read it.

"Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92). see statute posted below

Finally, a licensed collector may acquire, hold, or dispose of firearms classified as “curios or relics” as that term is defined in 27 CFR 478.11 (formerly 178.11). The collector’s license does not authorize the holder to manufacture a firearm for commercial resale.

For further details on issues related to your inquiry, please refer to the enclosed ATF publication, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (ATF P 5300.4). The text of 27 CFR 478.41(d) (formerly 178.41) appears on page 53; that of 27 CFR 478.93 (formerly 178.93), on page 58.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
"



Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:45:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By mykrowyre:
What about the serial # on the trunion? For example, all of my AKs have serial's on the trunion but no serial on the receiver. Why does a home builder need to put an additional (different) serial on the receiver?




Because the ATF considers the receiver to be the actual firearm.



Then what about my SAR-1 that only is serialized on the trunnion?




Man, I'm not sure why it's only on the trunnion, I do know that the rules are different for homebuilders, and definately if you sell it later, the serial on the trunnion is not good enough, you didn't make that, you made the receiver so it must be marked.

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 12:46:44 PM EDT
87


Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:52:47 PM EDT
Perhaps the trunnion becomes part of the receiver when it's riveted to it? Then the firearm (receiver) has a serial number (the one on the trunnion). If I was going to sell a firearm I built, I'd check with the alphabet soup boys to find out if this is correct before I did anything.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:46:44 AM EDT
No annual limits on the number of receivers you can build and sell, from 80% or from scratch according to the ATF (the rest of the rifle is just an afterthought according to the ATF).
But you cannot be in the business of building receivers without a manufacturers license, also according to the ATF.

And according to the ATF they have to be stamped - but I haven't been able to identify any part of the governing laws and regulations that apply to non-commercial builders. The law and the published regulations do exempt homebuilt firearms for personal use but not a word about stamping or selling. Anything on that form for the $35 license? Or is my problem lack of fluency in legal language?

I suspect the ATF is just desperate to try and control this source of evil assault weapons and is winging it. But I've got a couple cheap stamp sets and it's a lot easier to go along than fight them in court.

This same problem has been hashed over ad infinitum in the Curio and Relic Collectors community. You can buy and sell unlimited numbers of C&Rs as long as you do NOT run a business. Since the total costs, not just the cost of the guns but everything, and the limited profit margin make it impossible to run a successful C&R business without selling many hundreds of guns per year this isn't a problem for any collectors I know of.

The C&Rs also have the strange problem that only the complete gun, NOT the receiver, is the C&R and for military C&Rs they have to be in "original" condition. I wrote 2 letters to the ATF asking for clarification - how many missing or unoriginal parts allowed? - and got no answer.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:24:55 AM EDT

There is more BS in this tread than most cattle yards!


Originally Posted By acmech1:

You may build a AK or other gun from an flat or 80% receiver, and later sell it, IF you apply for a "Makers Permit" which costs $35 dollars, I had to call the ATF office in Atlanta for that info. It must however have a serial no. and other info. Therefore, YES according to Federal law anyone may make and sell a gun made from either a 80% or 100% receiver. Just don't try to do it too often, if they think you trying to make some cash, your in trouble. What the fuck are you talking about? A manufacturers license?


>More info. here on this thread http://1919a4.com/cgi-bin/noncgi/Forum1/HTML/007092.html
There is more BS on 1919a4.com than most of the gun boards.




Originally Posted By acmech1:

Originally Posted By 1BMF:
You can only sell one build a year that you built from anything less than an 100% receiver. No serial number is required to sell it, however FFL's will not except it without one so unless you do a FTF sale you must engrave it to specs.

That doesnt mean you can go out and buy 200 100% receivers, build them up just to sell, thats considered a business and requires a FFL.

Basically without an FFL it is like a not for profit deal.



Wrong about not needing a serial no. on a 80% receiver if your going to sell it, damn, you are going to get someone in trouble. Here's a portion of the info. from a letter to the ATF in one of the links I posted. Guess didn't bother to read it.

"Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92). see statute posted below

Finally, a licensed collector may acquire, hold, or dispose of firearms classified as “curios or relics” as that term is defined in 27 CFR 478.11 (formerly 178.11). The collector’s license does not authorize the holder to manufacture a firearm for commercial resale.

For further details on issues related to your inquiry, please refer to the enclosed ATF publication, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (ATF P 5300.4). The text of 27 CFR 478.41(d) (formerly 178.41) appears on page 53; that of 27 CFR 478.93 (formerly 178.93), on page 58.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
"






Have you even read 478.92? Individuals are not required to do anything only licensed manufactures and importers are required. Here is a link so you can read it for your self: a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr178.92.pdf

Once you have legally made a title 1 firearm it is just like any other title 1 firearm. You are free to do with it anything you are free to do with any other title 1 firearm.

People please do not spew BS. Look it up and post with a link to the law, regulation or ruling.



Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:06:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 11:22:43 AM EDT by acmech1]
Wombat, the copy and past I made is from a letter written directly to the ATF for an answer on homebuilt legalities. If you've never contacted them, you won't know who Sterling Nixon is. He still works for the ATF, still makes rulings on firearms, still is the person there you need to contact (Nixon recently ruled that semi mg42's are rifles and subject to the US parts countshere,
This letter was written to the ATF in 2004. Still, don't listen to me, CONTACT THEM LIKE OTHERS HAVE! If you've gotten a different response from the ATF on this, let us know what it is. LOL

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxx:

This refers to your letter of July 27, 2004, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you posed several questions. In general, you requested clarification regarding the classification of Hungarian AMD-63 and AMD-65 selective-fire rifle parts sets, as well as information regarding the manufacture of semiautomatic copies of these firearms.

As you know, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as follows:

…any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Further, with respect to your inquiry regarding the classification of the forward grip of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 based on 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 178.39), you should be aware that this is an integral part of the forearm, and, consequently would serve as the “forearm” as listed in 478.39(c)(1 7).

Concerning the manufacture of a semiautomatic copy of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 selective-fire rifle, this is possible only if the receiver is redesigned and incapable of accommodating the original fire control components. Further, the firearm must be designed to operate from the closed-bolt position. The redesigned receiver may be manufactured from new material or from the remnants of properly destroyed receivers. Proper destruction entails the diagonal torch cutting of the receiver in three critical locations. Each cut must displace at least ¼ inch of material.

We should add that prior to utilizing sections of a destroyed receiver, the features that make it capable of firing automatically—the machinegun sear pin hole and the slotted right receiver rail must be removed.

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92). see statute posted below

Finally, a licensed collector may acquire, hold, or dispose of firearms classified as “curios or relics” as that term is defined in 27 CFR 478.11 (formerly 178.11). The collector’s license does not authorize the holder to manufacture a firearm for commercial resale.

For further details on issues related to your inquiry, please refer to the enclosed ATF publication, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (ATF P 5300.4). The text of 27 CFR 478.41(d) (formerly 178.41) appears on page 53; that of 27 CFR 478.93 (formerly 178.93), on page 58.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:32:01 PM EDT
While you are in reality the manufacture of the firearm you are not a manufacture per the definition in law. (Reality is far different from ATF reasoning where shoe lasses are machineguns)

(a) Manufacturer
of firearms. A person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to manufacturing
firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal objective
of livelihood and profit through
the sale or distribution of the firearms
manufactured;

a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr178.11.pdf

Here is a picture of that letter you posted:



I am not arguing against what Nixon is saying. I do not know where they find people to write these obtuse letters but they are rarely straightforward. What he says is right but it is a little miss leading. There are no requirements to mark firearms on transfer only on manufacture and importation. The only entities (people) that need to mark them are licensed manufactures and licensed importers. He could have also said, that they must be transferred in accordance with the provisions set forth in § 478.94, and he would also be right but you would not be required to do anything as that also only applies to licensees.

The laws are written about things you cannot do, not things you can do for the most part. Lets hope it stays that way.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:02:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:21:55 PM EDT by acmech1]
Wombat,
I only know that Mr. Nixon seems to be in some position of authority at the ATF due to the fact that he answers most letters with regards to questions we might ask concerning our hobby. With respect to what he says though, and the fact that I was told (by the ATF in Atlanta) I would have to mark it and apply for a "makers permit" to sell a 80% homebuild, I think it would be safe to assume that, that is the law. True, it isn't spelled out word for word in the regs. as you say, so I would hope that you would agree, that we must assume the gun must marked (with respect to communications that have been made with the ATF regarding the sale of these guns), at least by doing this there is no chance of being sent to jail.

I couldn't tell anyone to do otherwise knowing they might be facing a jail sentence. The position of the Government is, that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Therefore my best advice would be to mark it if your going to sell it.

From the letters asking these direct questions of the ATF, and their response, I think its pretty clear what their position is. I don't think anyone here has the time or the money to argue it out in court by stating that the regs. are obscure. Most likely anyone taking this position will loose. The questions have already been asked, and they have been answered, now do whatever you feel lucky enough to get away with, we already know by the barrel ban that they are out to stop us homebuilders. Do you really want to take a chance like that and do you feel comfortable given others contrary advice?

All you need to do is sell a unmarked (80% receiver) built gun to a guy who later goes through a divorce and when his wife calls the police, telling them he has a illegal gun, he'll drop a dime on you in a heartbeat. If you've dotted your I's and crossed your T's (on your receiverhis
Guys do as you choose, I will say one last time, contact the ATF with any questions you may have. Write a letter and if they later change their mind at least you have their prior response that may help you. Of course some questions have already been asked so why defer.

Be careful, be safe...Out

Now to get back to my Yugo RPK build from a 80% coldsteel receiver.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:21:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PhilipPeake:

* Building from a 100% receiver - in this case, the feds treat the receiver as a firearm. You will go through an FFL to get it, tax will have been paid on it, and the feds know very well that you have it (or at least can find out pretty easily).



No Federal Excise Tax has been paid on bare receivers. This is one reason building many guns from bare receviers are cheaper. Specially AR15s..
Top Top