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Posted: 12/28/2005 7:51:37 PM EDT
Okay, I was watching the history channel and it was all about glue. One of the glues that they showed was a metal to metal bonder that is stronger than rivets, so why would this not work for fixing the front trunion to the receiver? It makes it so you would not have to mess around with removing the barrel and it would be stronger than rivets. Does anyone know someone that has tried this?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:25:09 PM EDT
Something like this seems like it would be fine, what do you guys think? http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/24690
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:06:17 PM EDT
Build one and report to us how it goes ... Super adhesive glues plobally cost more than rivets and the tools to build them. Personally i dont want to shoot a rifle that was "glued" together. When i build a rifle i'm not only building for the passion but for the authentic look, you could screw it, you could weld it, i guess you could glue it, but why bother when rivets are so easy to do and are fairly cheap.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:22:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 9:22:37 PM EDT by mk1271]
i agree
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:44:14 PM EDT
Weld, the original "Metal to metal glue "
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:59:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
i guess you could glue it, but why bother when rivets are so easy to do and are fairly cheap.




hell if cheap and easy were the only reasons to build one then everybody would be putting them together and welding them up, wouldn't take but one and a half 1/8th" rods to arc weld one of them together, cost bout .20 cents and doesn't take any special tools to assemble, but I build because I can and for the enjoyment of shooting a rifle I built myself, I've built with screws and rivets, both have their place, but doing the first rivet build sold me on rivets, gonna redo the screw builds with rivets later.


MLW>"<
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:03:21 PM EDT
I could maybe see using this glue stuff for lower rails and stuff like that. Anybody tried it ?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:31:24 PM EDT
The questions to ask are:

How impact resistant is this adhesive? Does temperature weaken the bond? What kind of prep will it require? How are the long-term properties of this adhesive? and stuff like that.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:00:10 PM EDT
The real trick would be getting some. I seriously doubt it's available in less than industrial-size lots. Also, I doubt the formulation was made to withstand the impacts or thermal changes in a firearm.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:20:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
The real trick would be getting some. I seriously doubt it's available in less than industrial-size lots. Also, I doubt the formulation was made to withstand the impacts or thermal changes in a firearm.




Like I said, though, what if you were to use it just for the lower rails ? I wouldn't use it on a trunnion myself, but I could see it as a alternative to spot-welding.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:43:26 PM EDT
It is about 30 bucks and is sold all over the place. Here it is
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:12:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Branspop:
The questions to ask are:

How impact resistant is this adhesive? Does temperature weaken the bond? What kind of prep will it require? How are the long-term properties of this adhesive? and stuff like that.




Quite correct.

I use a variety of Devcon materials in repairing aircraft. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

Ya gotta match the specific product to your specific application. Need to know all of the above and more, like interaction with your cleaning solvents, thermal expansion/contraction, strength in shear/tension, etc.


Some of their stuff hardens like steel, but I still wouldn't use it to assemble a firearm. Just don't like the idea of an unproven application going sour and rearrranging my face.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:15:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
We use a similar product when rebuilding automobiles. The main use is bonding structural panels to the vehicles (ex. quarter panels). This stuff is very strong, but I wouldn't trust it to build a gun with. Even when using this product, we still have to weld the parts in certain places.

Also, when we want to remove panels that have been glued with this stuff, we heat the area with a heat gun. It is heat that causes this stuff to separate, or weaken to allow us to remove it.

Cost, the stuff isn't cheap either. We pay about 30 dollars a kit for this type of adhesive. The adhesive is not the only cost. The applicator gun costs about $100 if IIRC. So in the end, I don't see it being practical.

I've done weld builds and rivet builds. Now that I've done both, I'm convinced that I like the looks of the rivet builds the best. I think weld builds work, and is an easy way to get the job done, but the rivet process is just more fun to do, and give the original look.




Amen
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:43:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By evilxi:
Okay, I was watching the history channel and it was all about glue. One of the glues that they showed was a metal to metal bonder that is stronger than rivets, so why would this not work for fixing the front trunion to the receiver? It makes it so you would not have to mess around with removing the barrel and it would be stronger than rivets. Does anyone know someone that has tried this?



I saw the same show. Interesting idea for gun use.

Don't worry - most people here will be naysayers to any newfangled thang that is mentioned. Gun entusiast move at a snail pace - take the classic 1911 for instance

For most people here, a gun with adhesives in it would need to have 10-12 million rounds put through it (no cleaning of course), with various cycles of heating/cooling, firing in salt water, firing in fresh water, sand, mud, put it between two 2000HP montser trucks and tug it, drop it from the space station and let it drop back to earth. If it survived all of this in about 100 years some here might try one. If in fact the bonding technology for use with guns could be certified and REDUCED costs someone here might try it in 50 years or so.

If Browning or Stoner thought convetionally only, we'd be missing way too much of the stuff we like. Look at the popularity of Old Painless and his Box o' Truth - he's not conventional.

While I agree there is something to be said to tried an true, do we really have all that we need now in terms of firearms? Might as well shut the R&D facilities and factories down now.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:01:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:06:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If it was a good way to assemble a rifle, don't you think someone would of done it already?



No, because it didn't go through the testing I described
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:04:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 3:07:35 PM EDT by H357SIGK]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If it was a good way to assemble a rifle, don't you think someone would of done it already?



Yea,

And if building a rifle out of aluminum was a good way to build one, Eugene, don't you think someone would have done it already?......

And if building a pistol out of plastic was a good way to build one, Mr. Glock, don't you think someone would have done it already?......(or at least stuck with it)......

Just my 2.........

Course I just finished my first rivet build and now I won't do it any other way

J
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:15:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metalrocks:

Originally Posted By evilxi:
Okay, I was watching the history channel and it was all about glue. One of the glues that they showed was a metal to metal bonder that is stronger than rivets, so why would this not work for fixing the front trunion to the receiver? It makes it so you would not have to mess around with removing the barrel and it would be stronger than rivets. Does anyone know someone that has tried this?



I saw the same show. Interesting idea for gun use.

Don't worry - most people here will be naysayers to any newfangled thang that is mentioned. Gun entusiast move at a snail pace - take the classic 1911 for instance

For most people here, a gun with adhesives in it would need to have 10-12 million rounds put through it (no cleaning of course), with various cycles of heating/cooling, firing in salt water, firing in fresh water, sand, mud, put it between two 2000HP montser trucks and tug it, drop it from the space station and let it drop back to earth. If it survived all of this in about 100 years some here might try one. If in fact the bonding technology for use with guns could be certified and REDUCED costs someone here might try it in 50 years or so.

If Browning or Stoner thought convetionally only, we'd be missing way too much of the stuff we like. Look at the popularity of Old Painless and his Box o' Truth - he's not conventional.

While I agree there is something to be said to tried an true, do we really have all that we need now in terms of firearms? Might as well shut the R&D facilities and factories down now.



Ive only got one face and I kinda like the one ive got. You give it a whirl!
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:08:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By evilxi:
Okay, I was watching the history channel and it was all about glue. One of the glues that they showed was a metal to metal bonder that is stronger than rivets, so why would this not work for fixing the front trunion to the receiver? It makes it so you would not have to mess around with removing the barrel and it would be stronger than rivets. Does anyone know someone that has tried this?

I saw that show also. After I saw the stress test, where the metal ripped before the glue bond failed, I have to admit, my first thought was about kit assembly.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:18:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GAU5-A-A:

Originally Posted By Branspop:
The questions to ask are:

How impact resistant is this adhesive? Does temperature weaken the bond? What kind of prep will it require? How are the long-term properties of this adhesive? and stuff like that.




Quite correct.

I use a variety of Devcon materials in repairing aircraft. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

Ya gotta match the specific product to your specific application. Need to know all of the above and more, like interaction with your cleaning solvents, thermal expansion/contraction, strength in shear/tension, etc.


Some of their stuff hardens like steel, but I still wouldn't use it to assemble a firearm. Just don't like the idea of an unproven application going sour and rearrranging my face.




Hysol 931NA would be a good glue for something like the rails inside the reciever, Ive seen some nasty and expensive mishaps with this stuff and a Kiowa swashplate.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:27:08 PM EDT
OK...OK...Lets say you glue the trunion. Lets say this stuff works...works really well. Then one day, for some reason you decide to change the receiver...or whatever....how in the world are you going to remove it?????

At least with rivets you have that option......
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:32:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metoo:
OK...OK...Lets say you glue the trunion. Lets say this stuff works...works really well. Then one day, for some reason you decide to change the receiver...or whatever....how in the world are you going to remove it?????

At least with rivets you have that option......



With a sheetmetal reciever its easy, a good putty knife and a mallet should be helpful along with a good heatgun. Takes a while to clean and you might scratch up the trunnion, but really who cares if the trunnion gets scratched, you dont see it anyways.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:38:33 PM EDT
Never had any luck with any "metal to metal" glue I've tried on anything.

GM
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:49:45 PM EDT
I wouldnt trust any glue in sustained rapid fire, put a couple hundred rounds down the tube in 5 minutes and I bet you could hit the barrel assembly on a tree stump and knock the front trunnion loose. IMO rivets/screws is the better idea here, even welding.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:32:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
With a sheetmetal reciever its easy, a good putty knife and a mallet should be helpful along with a good heatgun. Takes a while to clean and you might scratch up the trunnion, but really who cares if the trunnion gets scratched, you dont see it anyways.



OK, if a heat gun will help reduce the bond, is that really the substance you want on a trunnion, which will likely see it's own fair share of heat and impact stress?
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 11:36:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By GAU5-A-A:

Originally Posted By Branspop:
The questions to ask are:

How impact resistant is this adhesive? Does temperature weaken the bond? What kind of prep will it require? How are the long-term properties of this adhesive? and stuff like that.




Quite correct.

I use a variety of Devcon materials in repairing aircraft. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

Ya gotta match the specific product to your specific application. Need to know all of the above and more, like interaction with your cleaning solvents, thermal expansion/contraction, strength in shear/tension, etc.


Some of their stuff hardens like steel, but I still wouldn't use it to assemble a firearm. Just don't like the idea of an unproven application going sour and rearrranging my face.




Hysol 931NA would be a good glue for something like the rails inside the reciever, Ive seen some nasty and expensive mishaps with this stuff and a Kiowa swashplate.




Yeah, I've used Hysol NA9309 in rebuilding the same wingtip on a KingAir 200, twice. Both times the pilot taxiied it into a building. The .030 aluminum skin tore easily but the riveted joints and lap splices that were Hysol'd just crumpled.

Still, I'll let someone else be the crash-test dummy in this case. Be more than happy to buy them a beer and let them say "Told Ya So".

As far as testing, about 2500 rnds, at various rates of fire, with a detailed inspection afterward would convince me.

But I'd still use rivets on an AK build, cause I've got about every riveting tool known to mankind.




Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GAU5-A-A:

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By GAU5-A-A:

Originally Posted By Branspop:
The questions to ask are:

How impact resistant is this adhesive? Does temperature weaken the bond? What kind of prep will it require? How are the long-term properties of this adhesive? and stuff like that.




Quite correct.

I use a variety of Devcon materials in repairing aircraft. They each have advantages and disadvantages.

Ya gotta match the specific product to your specific application. Need to know all of the above and more, like interaction with your cleaning solvents, thermal expansion/contraction, strength in shear/tension, etc.


Some of their stuff hardens like steel, but I still wouldn't use it to assemble a firearm. Just don't like the idea of an unproven application going sour and rearrranging my face.




Hysol 931NA would be a good glue for something like the rails inside the reciever, Ive seen some nasty and expensive mishaps with this stuff and a Kiowa swashplate.




Yeah, I've used Hysol NA9309 in rebuilding the same wingtip on a KingAir 200, twice. Both times the pilot taxiied it into a building. The .030 aluminum skin tore easily but the riveted joints and lap splices that were Hysol'd just crumpled.

Still, I'll let someone else be the crash-test dummy in this case. Be more than happy to buy them a beer and let them say "Told Ya So".

As far as testing, about 2500 rnds, at various rates of fire, with a detailed inspection afterward would convince me.

But I'd still use rivets on an AK build, cause I've got about every riveting tool known to mankind.







then let me borrow one so i can built my AK's
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:29:34 AM EDT
I think an adhesive would be an interesting experiment. As far as the gun blowing up in your face, the bolt and carrier are locked up to the front trunnion. As long as the bolt carrier and trunnion lock-up is maintained, I don't see a problem with the gun coming apart.

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:18:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 6:19:53 AM EDT by metoo]

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By metoo:
OK...OK...Lets say you glue the trunion. Lets say this stuff works...works really well. Then one day, for some reason you decide to change the receiver...or whatever....how in the world are you going to remove it?????

At least with rivets you have that option......



With a sheetmetal reciever its easy, a good putty knife and a mallet should be helpful along with a good heatgun. Takes a while to clean and you might scratch up the trunnion, but really who cares if the trunnion gets scratched, you dont see it anyways.



Obviously, you have never worked with this stuff. Hysol or Devcon will eat your putty knife for breakfast. Heat??? You've got to be kidding. Maybe with a Victor cutting torch !!

If you use this stuff, it is permanent...period.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:26:32 AM EDT
Steel rivets have a max shear stress far over that of the glue. The design shear failure level for soft steel boiler rivets is, for example, 44 ksi, while the glue is only 2.52 ksi, so you'd have to get a good bond, no voids or a thick glue line, over 17 times the rivet cross sectional area for glue to equal the strength. And the glue service temperature only goes up to 250 deg. F, too low for use in a firearm.

Using glues in aluminum aircraft construction is another matter, as the thin aluminum may be far weaker than a rivet, and failure occures from tearing of the aluminum sheet, not rivet shear. A glue bond may cover a lot more area in this case, preventing failure due to concentrated loads around the rivets.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:53:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metoo:

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By metoo:
OK...OK...Lets say you glue the trunion. Lets say this stuff works...works really well. Then one day, for some reason you decide to change the receiver...or whatever....how in the world are you going to remove it?????

At least with rivets you have that option......



With a sheetmetal reciever its easy, a good putty knife and a mallet should be helpful along with a good heatgun. Takes a while to clean and you might scratch up the trunnion, but really who cares if the trunnion gets scratched, you dont see it anyways.



Obviously, you have never worked with this stuff. Hysol or Devcon will eat your putty knife for breakfast. Heat??? You've got to be kidding. Maybe with a Victor cutting torch !!

If you use this stuff, it is permanent...period.



Actually, Ive been working with Hysol products every day for the last 6 years, mainly 9309 and 934NA. The heat may not help as much, but a rawhide mallet will do a number on either product provided you have a vise and sturdy table. A prime example would be the stabilizer hinge fitting on a UH-60, where the two elastomeric bearings are bonded to the fitting with hysol 9309 and reinforced with scrim cloth or cheesecloth. I have seen these bonded with 934 also, much stronger bond between the two parts but still comes apart with a good ass whipping, both adhesives clean up fine with razor blades.
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