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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:17:01 PM EDT
From the info i have been able to figure out that you are able to sell one built reciever a year. Is this correct? Do i have to assume that any AK i build from a 80% is mine forever? ALso, if a ban goes into effect again (the democrats will win eventually), what legality would these weapons have. How do you prove there assembly date? Even if i etch a reciever with the date made it is just my word unless i take a crap load of pics and such and even then it would be a hard thing to prove. Any advice would be appreciated.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:07:03 AM EDT
Unless you are licensed, you cannot build a rifle with the intent to transfer (sell,give away) it. If you did not intend to transfer it at the time you built it, you may transfer it. There is no hard and fast number which you may or may not transfer in a specified time period. If you transfer enough, the government argues that you built them with the intent to transfer and charges you with being an un licensed manufacturer.
No one can predict the future and only a fool would try to even speculate what Congress and/or the BATFE will do. however, unless the Constitution is suspended, the government will have the burden of proving that you violated a law that prohibits you from assembling a rifle. Part of that burden will be to prove that the rifle was assembled after the ban. If you stamp a date on it now the government will argue that you assembled the rifle after the ban and back dated it to conceal your "crime". Bet on it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:12:28 AM EDT
thanks, on the first part about selling them that is good news. Of couse i do not plan or want to sell any of them that i am building but you also never know. I guess as far as any future bans go i can just always address those issues if/when they come. Thanks again for the info, You told me what i wanted to hear
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:25:28 PM EDT
you can NOT sell a homebuild receiver. you can only sell a gun that has a receiver which you filled out a yellow form to get, went through the FFL, and done a backgroundcheck through
NICS.

homebuilt receivers, the law says you can build one per year per immediate family member (father, mother, son, or daughter) Not sure about brothers and sisters.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:37:51 PM EDT
could you please post links to information stating this. I have heard people say you can not sell them. I have never heard that you can only make one gun per year per family member. Please please please tell me where you got this info from
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 9:44:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By santanatwo:
you can NOT sell a homebuild receiver. you can only sell a gun that has a receiver which you filled out a yellow form to get, went through the FFL, and done a backgroundcheck through
NICS.

homebuilt receivers, the law says you can build one per year per immediate family member (father, mother, son, or daughter) Not sure about brothers and sisters.



Completely and thoroughly wrong.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 10:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 10:54:44 PM EDT by aceface]
AARP Member
http://65.172.200.34/aceface.gif
Is it not a "gray" and wondrous world in which we live - such simple questions and no straight forward simple answers. Alas only a BATF "opinion" will quench the furry. (I like to collect them - like baseball cards)

My wife would like to know what to do with the horde when I die.
I can just see the head lines now -------
Seattle Times

Old lady caught red handed selling huge illegal ak47 rifle cache at Puyallup gun show”.

That would piss her off ;^)


________________________________________________
Getting old sucks.

Link Posted: 12/9/2005 11:07:59 PM EDT
thank you ACE for understanding. I do think these are simple questions but they always seem to start fights and then end with a quasi answer from BATF that is actually no answer at all.
Blammo, if he is wrong (which i do think he is), what is the right answer? DO you have a link to anything to back it up?
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 4:55:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 4:58:32 AM EDT by POLYTHENEPAM]
The key to this is the statute, which makes it legal to build a rifle FOR YOUR OWN USE. If you do not intend to transfer it AT THE TIME YOU BUILD IT you have made it for your own use, which is legal. If you build it with the intent to transfer it TO ANYONE (this includes friends, relatives and strangers) you have NOT made it for your own use, and in the eyes of the federal government, have committed a crime. After you build the rifle for your own use you may later transfer the rifle. If it was built on an 80% receiver you must mark it with your name and the City and State where the rifle was built before it is transfered. Note that if it was illegal to transfer a firearm built on a receiver which was home built the law would not have the marking requirements.
There is no hard and fast rule on the number you can transfer in a set time period. For example if you have built three rifles over the past 14 months and then have the misfortune to be transfered to Kalifornica by your employer, you can transfer all three rifles. In fact you have to since "you can't take them with you". Since you never intended to transfer the rifles when you built them you haven't violated any law, if you comply with the marking requirements.
On the other hand, if you produce one rifle a week and transfer it as soo as you complete it, the government will take the position that you intended to transfer the rifles at the time you built them and will charge you with being an unlicensed manufacturer. You will become the guest of the Bureau of Prisions.
If you have further questions I suggest you find an attorney who is familiar with federal criminal procedure and have him or her research the question of building firearms for your own use.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 5:17:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 6:05:12 AM EDT by aceface]
AARP Member

---POLYTHENEPAM---
Well done! +1 Very concise and to the point. The BATF could use a guy like you.

More or less from what I have gleened from various sources that is the way I also believe it is.

About the only thing I'm not "personally" sure of is there are those that say building on a 100 percent receiver gives you a "free ticket" to sell - since the receiver IS THE GUN and it was bought thru a ffl. Hmmmmm sounds good - but I'm not convinced. They are compairing this to say -- buying 10 new guns from a ffl, making a cosmetic change then reselling them. Which boils down to -- is the receiver THE GUN?? I have to admit when I read BATF rules - to me - some of them do seem to point in that direction.

________________________________________________
Getting old sucks.

Link Posted: 12/10/2005 6:15:41 AM EDT
ploy, I agree that before any gun was sold or even if it came to that, i would be doing much much legal checking. Would probably be cheaper to destroy then sell sadly. I have been doing some searches on the subject and even tried to read the document referenced by the BATF in there FAQ that talks about building your own gun. I have not been able to pull up much info other than the little blurb on the FAQ. Do you have any links to info on the subject? ANy info that i could read up on interests me. I just have a "learning" hair up my ass about this one now. Thanks
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 6:47:12 AM EDT
I don't have links right now. They were deleted accidently. I'll see what I can come up with.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 4:18:48 PM EDT
No one has mentioned stamping numbers or place of origin on the receiver. Is this necessary before you sell?
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 11:21:39 PM EDT
i found a couple things... Ill add to them as i find more. UNfortunatly alot of this stuff is still not backed up by any hard references. www.1919a4.com/FAQ/ questions 19, 20, 21
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:04:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAC762:
No one has mentioned stamping numbers or place of origin on the receiver. Is this necessary before you sell?



As stated in my previous post, if you transfer (sell, give away) a rifle or other firearm which you built and is not marked with the manufacturer ( for example an AK on an 80% receiver) you must stamp or engrave it with the name of the person who made it and the City and State where it was made.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:33:56 AM EDT
ploy, what i think he ment is that he has never heard anyone say that BEFORE you and he was just wanting confirmation from some other people. I have doing searches since you have said it and other than the link i previously posted i found one offical reference but it was from California and was talking about registering home built 50 BMG rifles. God knows that california is not reprentitive of federal law. If you have any info supporting what you say please please share. I know the info is out there, i just have to find it :)
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:35:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 10:56:38 PM EDT by dalesimpson]
I am out of this one. It is turning into a pissing contest and I want no part of it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:12:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aceface:
AARP Member
65.172.200.34/aceface.gif
Is it not a "gray" and wondrous world in which we live - such simple questions and no straight forward simple answers. Alas only a BATF "opinion" will quench the furry. (I like to collect them - like baseball cards)

My wife would like to know what to do with the horde when I die.
I can just see the head lines now -------
Seattle Times

Old lady caught red handed selling huge illegal ak47 rifle cache at Puyallup gun show”.

That would piss her off ;^)



________________________________________________
Getting old sucks.




Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:23:40 PM EDT
If I buy a bare receiver from a dealer, and assemble it into a pistol/rifle, I'm not the mfg'er of the item, the company with name stamped on the receiver is. the receiver has a s/n on it.
I am free to follow the laws of the state I reside in as to whom I may sell the item to. If I assemble it for the purpose of selling it, I need a ATF license to do so. much money & paperwork to get that license.

if I manufacture a AK receiver from parts, and plan to use it myself, I am under no fed requirement to put any markings on it whatever. Should I decide to sell/give it to someone at a later date, I am federally required to mark it with my name/city/state, since I'm the mfg'er. I'm NOT required to put a s/n on it.

should I start doin that on a regular basis, and the Feds start looking at me closely and discover I'm making them/selling them, Feds can charge me w/manufacturing w/out a license, and selling without proper marking of s/n, along with a bunch of other charges.
Anyone who notes any errors in the information above and can supply the missing facts, please do so.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:03:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 4:09:42 PM EDT by PAC762]
Thanks everyone! FYI, this is the title quoted in the letter posted by dale simpson. I am only pasteing the parts that relate to non-NFA weapons:

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart F--Conduct of Business

Sec. 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed
importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or
imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the
engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must
be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than
\1/16\ inch; and
(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For
firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the
engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be
to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(A) The model, if such designation has been made;
(B) The caliber or gauge;
(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business; and
(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.



My interpretation- It looks like the following is required:
1. SN
2. Model name IF SUCH DESIGNATION IS MADE.
3. Caliber or guage
4. Your name OR A RECOGNIZEABLE ABBREVIATION.
5. City and state OR RECOGNIZEABLE ABBREVIATION of the location of the MANUFACTURER, not place where manufactuired
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:18:03 PM EDT
No markings are required if you're not a manufacturer. Sec 478.92 ONLY applies to manufacturers. A private citizen can sell their home build gun without having to put any markings on it. Just don't get caught for 'manufacturing' as 'intent' is the key.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 9:52:59 PM EDT
THANK YOU DALE!!! that is exactly what i wanted to see.

Hail mary, the letter from the ATF states

if the firearm is tranfered to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provvions set forth in 27 CFR 478.92

even though this only applies to manufacturers it is clear that once the gun is sold it must be marked as such.
thank you guys for the great great info. I knew it woudl take a while but the info would come out.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:17:52 AM EDT
That section ONLY applies to licensed manufacturers and importers. NEVER try to read something into the law that isn't there. To get a manufacturers license you must be building firearms as a normal course of business, NOT as a hobby, and the BATFE won't give you one to put together a couple of AKs.
From what I've heard the BATFE would like every firearm to have a recognizable and traceable identification stamped on it. But the law doesn't provide that private makers to be required to do so. The marking section may have been added simply to try and convince the questioner to follow it even if he wasn't required, as a non-licensee, to do so.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:40:00 AM EDT
Well, the BATFE opinion was a unexpected surprise. I'll have to copy it for future use.

They take an interesting opinion on marking the receiver when you sell it. Personally, I'd just mark my receivers and be done with it, because they will prosecute based on their opinion. Then you'll get the chance to try to get the judge to agree with your view on the statutes.

I don't know where all this "one a year" and "never ever ever sell it" stuff comes from, but like it's been pointed out six or seven times in this thread already that's all bunk. I like to tell people a gun is a gun is a gun. The law doesn't know the difference between a "homebuilt" gun and "manufactered" gun once it's legally made. Sell it, trade it, give it away. Just don't make them with that intent.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:33:24 AM EDT
"I don't know where all this "one a year" and "never ever ever sell it" stuff comes from,..."

Me neither. You as an unlicensed individual can build 49 (yes, there is a number and 49 is it) firearms for your own use PER YEAR and not be considered a firearms manufacturer. This comes from an old ATF Ruling---got to remember, ATF Rulings are official interpretations of the various and often muddied regs. The ATF regs state if you build 50 you are a manufacturer and must be licensed as such. The ruling states that less than 50 per year does not require a license.

As far as transfers of personally built firearms go for an unlicensed individual, the transfers must be "casual", "infrequent", and not as part of a "business." If you made 40 rifles legally, then decided they were a burden to secure, I think selling them all would be OK. ONCE. However, if you did this a second time...build 40, sell 40....I think Lucy's got some splainin' to do. Build 5, sell 1? I don't see a problem.

PS--I work part time for the USA's second largest movie prop manufacturer. We regularly build full auto weapons to be used as props. If you ever saw an action flick, you've seen our stuff. We deal with these ATF questions every day...often from ATF-E field agents themselves. At our shop we all agree the two best laws promoting legal gun ownership are the Curio and Relics (Collector's license) regs and private lawful ownership of homebuilt firearms.

Build on.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:51:45 PM EDT
If I ever need the cash, I just plan on selling them as kits after I cut them in half
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:51:50 PM EDT
I said he said she said it was ok, and I think it is, so it is?!?!?

WRONG ANSWER

I read "one gun a year, per family member" on the ATF web site. No marking required, only sugested at this point.

The letter dale posted makes reference to a law, which no one has bothered to read.

if you want to sell your home built receiver, you must fill out paperwork first, from the ATF, for them to give you a serial number to place on the gun. You cannot sell it without this.

You must have a serial number, but you can't just make up any old number. The ATF can give you a number, but you must request a number from them before you can put the number on the gun.

read "paperwork first!"

Also, the 50 gun a year ruling is covering people who build on 100% receivers, NOT homebuild receivers. means, I can buy 49 oow receiovers a year, assemble them with krinkov kits and sell them for $1500, thus allowing me to make $49,000 per year, and not be considered a manufaturer

y'all better spend some more time reading before somebody ends up in club fed


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:39:10 PM EDT
ok i see a letter that seems pretty clear. I have read the law it references. SInce when does the BATF assign serial numbers?!??! Dale has provided a letter from the BATF tht backs up aot of things people have said. While it does not answer all the questions, it does answer a couple.

The letter dale posted makes reference to a law, which no one has bothered to read
the law it references is 27 cfr 478.92 which is posted here as well.

I said he said she said it was ok, and I think it is, so it is?!?!?

WRONG ANSWER

I read "one gun a year, per family member" on the ATF web site. No marking required, only sugested at this point.

You make a very good point SO i will do the same with you. Dale has a freakin' letter. If you want to support YOUR "i read" or "i saw" post a link that supports it. Until i see info supporting what people say when it comes to legalities i belive no one.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:43:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 1:43:47 PM EDT by Jetlag]

Originally Posted By santanatwo:
I read "one gun a year, per family member" on the ATF web site.




Originally Posted By santanatwo:
if you want to sell your home built receiver, you must fill out paperwork first, from the ATF, for them to give you a serial number to place on the gun. You cannot sell it without this.


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:06:39 PM EDT
Also, the 50 gun a year ruling is covering people who build on 100% receivers, NOT homebuild receivers. means, I can buy 49 oow receiovers a year, assemble them with krinkov kits and sell them for $1500, thus allowing me to make $49,000 per year, and not be considered a manufaturer

Partly true...you can build 49 from 100% receivers, but you can't sell them except in a way that does not make your actions "engaging in a business."
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:46:12 PM EDT
LOL

you have read part of a law.

there is more to the law than just the small sections dale has posted.

I have spent the long hours reading the laws. IT is hard work, and the ATF does not make it easy. There is a form you can complete, that will allow you to put a "real" serial number on a gun, and then sell it. The ATF will send you the papers to do it, if you ask them.

Go back and spend more time reading before you encourage people to try to go to prison.

I predict an eminent thread locking.

If the law makes you angry, well, I agree it's a stupid law. most gun laws are, but it's still the law .


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:19:19 AM EDT
you know what dale, I went back and you are right. This is getting ugly. It has deteriated he said she said. Thank you very very much for your letter. You answered my questions. I wish you would not have pulled it though because i did not copy it. Oh well. It made things pretty clear. Thanks all
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:31:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:34:24 AM EDT by arcom]
Jeesh, don't make it harder than it has to be. Here's the link containing the ATF letter.

If your build is not from a 100% receiver, then just mark it as required and you're good to go. Remember, don't make it a business...

Click here and Chill

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:35:07 AM EDT
swell. Thanks arcom!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:47:36 AM EDT
it seems the ATF web site has changed a lot over the years, sadly, I think it is for the worse.

I do clearly remember reading an official ATF statement that said you can only homebuild one gun per year, per family member. I'm not delusional, this has been the standard for as long as I can remember.

also, according to that letter pookie posted, it seems the ATF has written an opinion (very recently) which says you can sell a homebuilt gun, assuming you did not intend to sell it when you built it. and as long as you mark it properly.

www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms here is a list of forms

and here is the atf form which led me to believe that you must complete paperwork first, before you stamp a gun with a serial number,

www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:14:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By santanatwo:

and here is the atf form which led me to believe that you must complete paperwork first, before you stamp a gun with a serial number,

www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf





That's a Form 1 for making Title 2/NFA firearms.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:44:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arcom:
Jeesh, don't make it harder than it has to be. Here's the link containing the ATF letter.

If your build is not from a 100% receiver, then just mark it as required if you are a licensed manufacturer and you're good to go. Remember, don't make it a business...

Click here and Chill




Fixed

There is a lot of BS in this thread!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:54:23 AM EDT
Page 2, paragraph 2 of the ATF letter [translated]....an unlicensed person who transfers a home build without a serial number must add a serial number prior to transfer.

A licensed manufacturer will have already paid his 11% excise tax, stamped the serial number, and filed his inventory report (or kept it on hand for inspection.)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:10:46 AM EDT
It says that if the firearm is transferred to another party it must be marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92.

It does not say that a nonlicensee is required to mark the firearm.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:36:56 AM EDT
That sounds like an opinion letter.If it is that is all it is an opinion not law.Ask it again and you will probably get a different answer. Every time that question is asked a different director you get a different answer.
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