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Posted: 5/6/2003 3:12:14 PM EDT
Well, I have been hanging out over at AK-47.net to learn the world of AKs... I bought a SAR-1 which will be my shooter AK but I want to either build a dummy AKMs or I wanted to find a way to build one such that I can still have all the evil features... I know I am building an AR-15 pistol by killing the gas system so why not do the same with the AKM series.... Following is what I posted over at AK-47.net

---------------------------------------------

OK guys, I stole the following from:
www.alpharubicon.com/leo/theak47.htm
It's a good looking page... check it out!


The AK47 is a gas-operated weapon, using a rotating bolt inside of a bolt carrier. The gas tube containing a loose-fitting gas piston, is positioned directly over the top of the barrel. When the weapon is fired, some of the propellant gases are bled off through a gas port drilled through the top of the barrel. The gas drives the gas piston rearward, through the gas block, emerging over the top of the chamber, where the back end of the piston impacts against the bolt carrier.

The bolt, which is contained within the bolt carrier, has a lug on its side which mates to a groove milled in the carrier. As the carrier is forced back, it moves this slot over the lug, in turn, causing the bolt to rotate. This rotation and reward movement causes the bolt to unlock, disingaging its lugs from matching slots machined into the rear of the chamber. This rearward action of the bolt carrier also extracts the spent case, cocks the hammer and strips a fresh round from the magazine, chambering it, on its return journey forward into battery.

As the carrier and bolt are driven back they compress a recoil or return spring. At the end of its rearward travel, the carrier and bolt are driven forward, now under spring pressure, stripping a new round from the magazine and chambering it. The carrier and its corresponding machined grooves, cause the bolt to rotate and lock into the matching recesses machined into the chamber end of the barrel. The hammer is now cocked and the weapon is ready to fire. If immediate firing is not needed or anticipated, the safety, which is on the right side of the receiver, can be raised into its uppermost position, making the weapon safe. In additon to acting as the safety, this lever also doubles as a dustcover, keeeping dirt and debris out of the weapon's action.



How could someone make an AK varient NonSemiAuto when we look at the basic system as described in the paragraph above? Secondly, how can this be done in a way that it could be reversed later?

As I said before, with the AR-15 I just built using an upper with no gas tube and it does not fire only by pulling the trigger which I feel is enough to make my AR-15 non semi-auto! It was built this way from a stipped lower and it never had a gas tube so it was never a semi auto! With the AR-15, it would be easy to reverse this as all I need to do is install a gas...

Following is a cut away view...

aster.iespana.es/aster/fotosdentro/interiorak47.htm

I hate the thougt of welding the gas port closed.... Can someone suggest another way that the gas system could be stoped from working? Now my NEWBEE status comes through, but can the Gas piston be removed from the bolt carrier?


www.sksman.com/parts/parts3.html

And if we did, I know we would need something to replace it for the recoil spring assembly to re-close the system and to keep the system aligned properly. I can't help but wonder just how much gas would be blowing back into the action and the shooter's face if the piston wasn't there. In general, I can't see an easy way to make this work?

Now, another way that I think would work is by buying a new AK Gas Chamber and closing up the gas hole in it by welding it shut! Then, assemble my parts kit with this welded closed Gas Chamber. This will prevent the gas from ever getting to the piston making the rifle a charging handle operated BOLT-ACTION!

If the crime bill dies I could simply remove this non-functional gas chamber and replace it with the functional unit that came with the parts kit...


www.sksman.com/parts/parts2.html

This last option looks like the best way that I can come up with to make an AK-47 non-semiautomatic, or it's the best non-perminant method that I have found yet even though this is in fact a perminant change BUT the piece I am modifying wouldn't be too difficult to replace later....

So WHATCHA ALL THINK? to do this I simply buy an AK Gas Chamber and weld that puppy closed and add it to my PMKMS parts kit (saving the original part) and then assemble my parts kit on a new OOW receiver! I can have my threaded muzzle, bayonet lug, and underfolder plus my detachable magazines but I have lost my Semi-Automatic fire option.... If the crime bill dies, then I simply swap the parts and have an PMKMS the way it was supposed to be... well, except for the full auto :(

I think this should work and I would argue with the ATF anyday that my rifle built in this way is NOT a semiautomatic so the crime bill does not apply!

-----------------------------------------------

Is it possible to replace the gas chamber? Looking at the diagrams I have seen these look like they are mounted using pins (taper pins?). This is another example of my NEWBEE ignorance I guess... Any advise?

I need my Parts Kits to arive so I have something to look at! I'll also dig out my SAR-1 tonight to see if I can tell if I am even close...? I am hoping this is possible as this is how I will get my kit built if I can find a good gunsmith to agree with my logic!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 1:10:18 AM EDT
You are correct. If the rifle is not a semi-automatic, then the crime bill does not apply. Welding the barrel gas port would be the route to go. Nothing else needs to be done. Barrels are inexpensive, sort of, and everything seems to be OK unless you have the spare barrel stored with the single shot AK. Might be seen as intent. Store it at your sister's house or something. Better, get the chinese barrels. I think the gas port was never drilled on those. Global has a euro style trunion sized for the chinese barrel diameter and the chinese barrel and all sorts of bad things to put on it... Sell your trunion and barrel assy and have the nifty heavier style barrel. All about the same cost. Just don't try to bump it!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:42:48 AM EDT
Why weld the barrel as opposed to the gas chamber as shown above? This way, if the crime bill dies I can pull two pins and replace that piece without needing to go through the major hastle or rebareling a stamped AK?

With an AR-15... yea, throw out the barrel... but an AK would need much more work as you know!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:45:32 PM EDT
ok.. I have given in a few minutes of thought(commercial breaks on the TV) and have come up with this idea.

Remove the gas piston.
Get a new gas tube (so you don't damage you original one).
plug near the muzzle end of the gas tube with some sort of plug(to test)
then fire it and see if it works non-semi.

I do not know what the LEGAL requirements are for a single shot assault style weapon is.
I do not know if it has to be "not easily converted to semi"

I WOULD NOT modify the barrel by welding up the gas hole. In 16 months the AW ban WILL die.
I don't think a new one, unless something MAJOR happens with a shooting, will be put into law.
Bush would have to sign a EX order and that would be a political death sentence for him.

I would go for plugging the gas tub up and removing the gas piston.

Link Posted: 5/7/2003 5:52:25 PM EDT
I wonder if, just to test the non-semi feature, could remove the gas tube and fire the weapon.
This would vent the gas out and test your single shot idea prior to modifing anything.

I am just not sure how the weapon will work as a single shot.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 3:30:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 5:18:05 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Thanks for the new ideas and sugestions...


DrugRunR:

I don't think that I can just remove the piston as the piston is what guides the Bolt/Carrier forward when the weapon is cycled. Without the piston, which is screwed to the carrier, the carrier would twist, turn, or otherwise cause me problems.

Also, if I plug the rear of the gas tube, what I will have is gas pressure building up INSIDE the gas tube which likely wasn't designed to handle pressure.... In a normal AK, the piston moves allowing the pressure to escape! I don't want this thing to blow up in my face!





CAMPYBOB

Well, for a manufacturer the change may need to be perminant but I dare say that the crime bill only says that "a semiautomatic with a detachable magazine and two or more..."

So, does it really need to be perminant? I don't see that in the law! I agree that welding the gas port closed is the most perminate way and the way the liberals would like to see it done... BUT that isn't really a legal requirement IN MY OPPINION. The goal of the liberals was to prevent someone with a Semiautomatic rifle with a ton of hi-caps, and a bayonet lug and the all so deadly flash supressor from taking out a small town (Rambo style?). I argue, that as long as the rifle doesn't shoot more than one round per trigger pull, and it would require replacing parts (as in the gas block here) that this prevents my AKMs from being used by Rambo to take out a town!

Now, I agree that the gas port will be accessable if I am going to swap gas blocks anyways so I guess I could do it either way (close gas block or gas port). I wonder how hard it would be for a gunsmith to later re-drill the gas-port if the crime bill was to die? I know from other experiences that sometimes a weld is tougher to drill then the metal around it! Anybody have a guess on how hard it will be to make my non-Semi become Semiautomatic again?



I am still waiting for my parts kits and I am trying to find a local FFL to receive an OOW AK receiver.... from there, I am going to move forward with either a welded closed gas block or a welded closed gas port!

Edited to move pic to a new reply to make this easier to read!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:18:14 AM EDT
Following is a new Cut-A-Way AK pic that I found on the net to help those, like me, that are just learning about the AK...

Link Posted: 5/8/2003 11:45:43 AM EDT
the gas piston does NOT keep the carrier from twisting, turning, or any other movement.

The gas piston serves NO purpose other then to catch the gas.
The carrier rides on rails.

The gas tube can handle the pressure.
If you are worried you could just put a blockage in the gas block.

If you weld the barrel hole over then you will have to replace the barrel later to convert it back and you risk the change of the weld distorting the barrel or beading up in the barrel(a little) which would make your gun in accurate.

I have thought about it more and what I said would work just fine.

As far as it needing to be a perm fix, I don't think so.

Also on the gas piston, if you like you can just cut the end of the gas piston off leaving the shaft but nothing else.

I just don't get what the real deal is on wanting to have all of this trouble?
Just to get a "preban" looking rifle?
Do you like in CALI were you can't own a AK?

I did not reply to your message on the AK boards. I will keep my reply on here.



Link Posted: 5/8/2003 12:44:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 12:55:22 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
DrugRunR,

Thanks for the comments and I just read my previous reply and I wish to appoligize for the way that I had replied as I had meant to post my reply as a question like... "Wouldn't removing the piston cause..."

In reply to your method, I will have to give it some thought as I am certainly looking for suggestions and I really don't know shit about AKs! I have spent a good amount of time trying to read what I can find on the web and other sources and I am slowly catching up!

I think your methoud would be the easiest to UN-DO but it would be so easy to UN-DO that a person could do so in under a minute (right?). While I don't wish to do something so drastic that it would later require trashing the AK... such as tossing a barrel, I would like something perminant enough that if the ATF was to take me to court I am sure I could win the case. For that reason, I think I will stick to the MIDDLE-RISK with welding or sealing the gas block closed.

You also asked about why I would do this... I live in PA and I can legally own a pre or post ban AK. I do have a brand new SAR-1!

In this case, I bought the parts kit for about $150 and I wanted to build it as an underfolder... I could build this as a NON-GUN with a dummy receiver or I can build it as a NON-BAN gun by making in non-semiautomatic, or I can make it Post-Ban by grinding off the bayonet lug, welding on the brake, and welding the stock open!

The price and time to build a Non-Gun is about the same as building a Non-Ban gun so why not at least have the option of shooting it? As for the Post Ban, I already have one and I will be building another as described below.

Also, if the crime bill dies, even for just a few hours, I can configure this Non-Ban into a pre-ban Semiautomatic configuration! I can't do that with a Non-Gun and a post-ban could be done but again it will require some major work and I have two others that I will be converting!

Does this make sense or have I been trying to figure out how to do this so much that I lost my way in the woods because of all the trees (details)?

Oh yea, I have also considered doing this project as an AK pistol instead of an AKMs using the same principle!

Also, FWIW, I have two receivers on order along with two parts kits and the second receiver I am planning to build as a correct semi-auto Post-ban AKM! That will give me TWO Semi-Auto AKMs (one I bought and one I hope to build if I can) and one funky bolt action which I plan to have built for me so it looks as good as possible!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 3:36:18 PM EDT
If you remove the gas piston and block the gas tube it will take MORE then a few minutes to correct.
You would have to have the gas piston handy plus deal with whatever you figure out to block the gas.

hey, if you cut the gas piston near the carrier then it will look factory.
You know you could get a new gas tube, cut a notch in the top(like magna-ports)
I will look at my one of my ak's when I get home and see what I can figure out.
I WOULD NOT weld the barrel or do anything that can not be repaired in under 15 mins.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:58:52 AM EDT
Ever thought of going the detachable mag route instead? If I understand the law, which is not a given, would that accomplish the same thing?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 11:20:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WinnR:
Ever thought of going the detachable mag route instead?



I know you mean the NON-detachable mag route....

Well, I have tried to write the ATF for clarification on what THEY define a Detachable Magazine to be! Yes, if I could get the ATF to put into writing that a detachable magazine is one that requires tools to allow the removal of a magazine (Which I beleave is the way teh CA law is written) then YES I could figure out a way to modify or replace the mag catch on the AK to make it necessary to use tools to remove a mag!

I have also seen where people epoxy and pin mags in place or weld them fast. These two options do not apeal to me in the context of an AK as unless I use a Chinese drum mag or really come up with some funky way to modify a mag, reloading would involve removing the cover, removing the carrier and spring assembly, then loading from the top... only to put it all back together again....

I would rather have a BOLT Action at that point! Now, I could use it as a single shot but given the AK doesn't have a bolt catch that would be a pain in the ass too!

Yea, I do have a couple 75-rd chinese drums BUT I think I would prefer to just stick with a bolt action all things considered but THANKS for the suggestion!
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 6:52:48 AM EDT
It's nice to find someone who is plugged in to the legalese. I don't want to hijack your thread so please let me know if this is the wrong place to ask, but; what is 50 ounce rule and how could it apply to what you are attempting?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:57:29 PM EDT
50 oz rule applies to detachable mag post-ban pistols.

If you perm attach the mag then the 50oz rule does not apply.

Special Weapons made a "SW89".
Which was a clone of a HK89 9mm pistol.
In order to be legal they had to get it under 50oz.
The cut the barrel to the FSB(front sight block), did not install a front handguard, made lightening cuts in the bolt carrier, and went with a plastic trigger housing.

Now, in order to make the AK fit under the 50 oz rule you would have to make some drastic mods.
(1) NO selector lever
(2) NO upper handguard, just bare gas tube
(3) Ideally need to find a krinkov front end.
(4) Trim the extra meat off of the FCG(disconnector, hammer, and Trigger)

Those are just some things.
You would have to start weighing parts
Find out what a milled reciever compared to a stamped wieghs.
Find the lightest PG you can find

Sorry have not really thought about a AK pistol
There is a good thread on AK-47.net about it.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:14:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 5:50:44 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
DrugRunR has you covered...

Just rember what the crime bill says in regards to pistols....


A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:

  • an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.

  • a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.

  • a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.

  • a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.

  • a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.



If you have a semiautomatic pistol with a detachable magazine you can ONLY ONE (1) of the above features as listed above! With an AR-15 or AK-47 style pistol that ONE (1) item will be an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.

Therefore you can NOT have ANY of the other characteristics or it will be an illegal Semiautomatic Assault Weapon as defined by the law!

This is why there are lots of related topics on NON-SEMI auto pistols and/or why so many people weld a magazine to their lower. You only need to do ONE or the OTHER and the ban does not apply!

Following are a number of related topics as they relate to the AR-15 pistol....

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=157572&w=searchPop

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=156724&w=searchPop

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=26&t=161623&w=searchPop

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=154494&w=searchPop

Here are a few of my stupid posts over at AK-47.net that might help as well...

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118423

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118371

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117107

Good Luck!
QB
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:14:56 AM EDT
And what a wealth of information!
If the firearm is semiautomatic, has a detachable magazine and under 26 inches in length than it must not have a threaded barrel, or handgrips and it must be under 50 ounces in weight.
If the firearm is semiautomatic, has a detachable magazine and over 26 inches in length than the rifle rules determine legality.
I have a few spare receivers, an extra parts kit or two, and enough idle time to be dangerous. Let's see what happens.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:51:06 PM EDT
Quarterbore;
I'll try to offer something constructive here.
I looked at a couple of ak barrels with gas blocks attached to view the problem of the easiest way to semi permanently block the gas.
I think DrugRunR's right in saying the gas block itself is the most reasonable place to work. I tried a 4 mm tap and it looks like it may work inside the gas block itself and allow you to screw in a plug. Whether you adhered it in place or did something fancy is up to you but it would seem that should accomplish your purpose and also be removable.
Regards--Winn
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