Well, I have been hanging out over at AK-47.net to learn the world of AKs... I bought a SAR-1 which will be my shooter AK but I want to either build a dummy AKMs or I wanted to find a way to build one such that I can still have all the evil features... I know I am building an AR-15 pistol by killing the gas system so why not do the same with the AKM series.... Following is what I posted over at AK-47.net
OK guys, I stole the following from:
It's a good looking page... check it out!
How could someone make an AK varient NonSemiAuto when we look at the basic system as described in the paragraph above? Secondly, how can this be done in a way that it could be reversed later?
As I said before, with the AR-15 I just built using an upper with no gas tube and it does not fire only by pulling the trigger which I feel is enough to make my AR-15 non semi-auto! It was built this way from a stipped lower and it never had a gas tube so it was never a semi auto! With the AR-15, it would be easy to reverse this as all I need to do is install a gas...
Following is a cut away view...
I hate the thougt of welding the gas port closed.... Can someone suggest another way that the gas system could be stoped from working? Now my NEWBEE status comes through, but can the Gas piston be removed from the bolt carrier?
And if we did, I know we would need something to replace it for the recoil spring assembly to re-close the system and to keep the system aligned properly. I can't help but wonder just how much gas would be blowing back into the action and the shooter's face if the piston wasn't there. In general, I can't see an easy way to make this work?
Now, another way that I think would work is by buying a new AK Gas Chamber and closing up the gas hole in it by welding it shut! Then, assemble my parts kit with this welded closed Gas Chamber. This will prevent the gas from ever getting to the piston making the rifle a charging handle operated BOLT-ACTION!
If the crime bill dies I could simply remove this non-functional gas chamber and replace it with the functional unit that came with the parts kit...
This last option looks like the best way that I can come up with to make an AK-47 non-semiautomatic, or it's the best non-perminant method that I have found yet even though this is in fact a perminant change BUT the piece I am modifying wouldn't be too difficult to replace later....
So WHATCHA ALL THINK? to do this I simply buy an AK Gas Chamber and weld that puppy closed and add it to my PMKMS parts kit (saving the original part) and then assemble my parts kit on a new OOW receiver! I can have my threaded muzzle, bayonet lug, and underfolder plus my detachable magazines but I have lost my Semi-Automatic fire option.... If the crime bill dies, then I simply swap the parts and have an PMKMS the way it was supposed to be... well, except for the full auto :(
I think this should work and I would argue with the ATF anyday that my rifle built in this way is NOT a semiautomatic so the crime bill does not apply!
Is it possible to replace the gas chamber? Looking at the diagrams I have seen these look like they are mounted using pins (taper pins?). This is another example of my NEWBEE ignorance I guess... Any advise?
I need my Parts Kits to arive so I have something to look at! I'll also dig out my SAR-1 tonight to see if I can tell if I am even close...? I am hoping this is possible as this is how I will get my kit built if I can find a good gunsmith to agree with my logic!
You are correct. If the rifle is not a semi-automatic, then the crime bill does not apply. Welding the barrel gas port would be the route to go. Nothing else needs to be done. Barrels are inexpensive, sort of, and everything seems to be OK unless you have the spare barrel stored with the single shot AK. Might be seen as intent. Store it at your sister's house or something. Better, get the chinese barrels. I think the gas port was never drilled on those. Global has a euro style trunion sized for the chinese barrel diameter and the chinese barrel and all sorts of bad things to put on it... Sell your trunion and barrel assy and have the nifty heavier style barrel. All about the same cost. Just don't try to bump it!
Why weld the barrel as opposed to the gas chamber as shown above? This way, if the crime bill dies I can pull two pins and replace that piece without needing to go through the major hastle or rebareling a stamped AK?
With an AR-15... yea, throw out the barrel... but an AK would need much more work as you know!
ok.. I have given in a few minutes of thought(commercial breaks on the TV) and have come up with this idea.
Remove the gas piston.
Get a new gas tube (so you don't damage you original one).
plug near the muzzle end of the gas tube with some sort of plug(to test)
then fire it and see if it works non-semi.
I do not know what the LEGAL requirements are for a single shot assault style weapon is.
I do not know if it has to be "not easily converted to semi"
I WOULD NOT modify the barrel by welding up the gas hole. In 16 months the AW ban WILL die.
I don't think a new one, unless something MAJOR happens with a shooting, will be put into law.
Bush would have to sign a EX order and that would be a political death sentence for him.
I would go for plugging the gas tub up and removing the gas piston.
I wonder if, just to test the non-semi feature, could remove the gas tube and fire the weapon.
This would vent the gas out and test your single shot idea prior to modifing anything.
I am just not sure how the weapon will work as a single shot.
Thanks for the new ideas and sugestions...
I am still waiting for my parts kits and I am trying to find a local FFL to receive an OOW AK receiver.... from there, I am going to move forward with either a welded closed gas block or a welded closed gas port!
Edited to move pic to a new reply to make this easier to read!
the gas piston does NOT keep the carrier from twisting, turning, or any other movement.
The gas piston serves NO purpose other then to catch the gas.
The carrier rides on rails.
The gas tube can handle the pressure.
If you are worried you could just put a blockage in the gas block.
If you weld the barrel hole over then you will have to replace the barrel later to convert it back and you risk the change of the weld distorting the barrel or beading up in the barrel(a little) which would make your gun in accurate.
I have thought about it more and what I said would work just fine.
As far as it needing to be a perm fix, I don't think so.
Also on the gas piston, if you like you can just cut the end of the gas piston off leaving the shaft but nothing else.
I just don't get what the real deal is on wanting to have all of this trouble?
Just to get a "preban" looking rifle?
Do you like in CALI were you can't own a AK?
I did not reply to your message on the AK boards. I will keep my reply on here.
Thanks for the comments and I just read my previous reply and I wish to appoligize for the way that I had replied as I had meant to post my reply as a question like... "Wouldn't removing the piston cause..."
In reply to your method, I will have to give it some thought as I am certainly looking for suggestions and I really don't know shit about AKs! I have spent a good amount of time trying to read what I can find on the web and other sources and I am slowly catching up!
I think your methoud would be the easiest to UN-DO but it would be so easy to UN-DO that a person could do so in under a minute (right?). While I don't wish to do something so drastic that it would later require trashing the AK... such as tossing a barrel, I would like something perminant enough that if the ATF was to take me to court I am sure I could win the case. For that reason, I think I will stick to the MIDDLE-RISK with welding or sealing the gas block closed.
You also asked about why I would do this... I live in PA and I can legally own a pre or post ban AK. I do have a brand new SAR-1!
In this case, I bought the parts kit for about $150 and I wanted to build it as an underfolder... I could build this as a NON-GUN with a dummy receiver or I can build it as a NON-BAN gun by making in non-semiautomatic, or I can make it Post-Ban by grinding off the bayonet lug, welding on the brake, and welding the stock open!
The price and time to build a Non-Gun is about the same as building a Non-Ban gun so why not at least have the option of shooting it? As for the Post Ban, I already have one and I will be building another as described below.
Also, if the crime bill dies, even for just a few hours, I can configure this Non-Ban into a pre-ban Semiautomatic configuration! I can't do that with a Non-Gun and a post-ban could be done but again it will require some major work and I have two others that I will be converting!
Does this make sense or have I been trying to figure out how to do this so much that I lost my way in the woods because of all the trees (details)?
Oh yea, I have also considered doing this project as an AK pistol instead of an AKMs using the same principle!
Also, FWIW, I have two receivers on order along with two parts kits and the second receiver I am planning to build as a correct semi-auto Post-ban AKM! That will give me TWO Semi-Auto AKMs (one I bought and one I hope to build if I can) and one funky bolt action which I plan to have built for me so it looks as good as possible!
If you remove the gas piston and block the gas tube it will take MORE then a few minutes to correct.
You would have to have the gas piston handy plus deal with whatever you figure out to block the gas.
hey, if you cut the gas piston near the carrier then it will look factory.
You know you could get a new gas tube, cut a notch in the top(like magna-ports)
I will look at my one of my ak's when I get home and see what I can figure out.
I WOULD NOT weld the barrel or do anything that can not be repaired in under 15 mins.
Ever thought of going the detachable mag route instead? If I understand the law, which is not a given, would that accomplish the same thing?
I know you mean the NON-detachable mag route....
Well, I have tried to write the ATF for clarification on what THEY define a Detachable Magazine to be! Yes, if I could get the ATF to put into writing that a detachable magazine is one that requires tools to allow the removal of a magazine (Which I beleave is the way teh CA law is written) then YES I could figure out a way to modify or replace the mag catch on the AK to make it necessary to use tools to remove a mag!
I have also seen where people epoxy and pin mags in place or weld them fast. These two options do not apeal to me in the context of an AK as unless I use a Chinese drum mag or really come up with some funky way to modify a mag, reloading would involve removing the cover, removing the carrier and spring assembly, then loading from the top... only to put it all back together again....
I would rather have a BOLT Action at that point! Now, I could use it as a single shot but given the AK doesn't have a bolt catch that would be a pain in the ass too!
Yea, I do have a couple 75-rd chinese drums BUT I think I would prefer to just stick with a bolt action all things considered but THANKS for the suggestion!
It's nice to find someone who is plugged in to the legalese. I don't want to hijack your thread so please let me know if this is the wrong place to ask, but; what is 50 ounce rule and how could it apply to what you are attempting?
50 oz rule applies to detachable mag post-ban pistols.
If you perm attach the mag then the 50oz rule does not apply.
Special Weapons made a "SW89".
Which was a clone of a HK89 9mm pistol.
In order to be legal they had to get it under 50oz.
The cut the barrel to the FSB(front sight block), did not install a front handguard, made lightening cuts in the bolt carrier, and went with a plastic trigger housing.
Now, in order to make the AK fit under the 50 oz rule you would have to make some drastic mods.
(1) NO selector lever
(2) NO upper handguard, just bare gas tube
(3) Ideally need to find a krinkov front end.
(4) Trim the extra meat off of the FCG(disconnector, hammer, and Trigger)
Those are just some things.
You would have to start weighing parts
Find out what a milled reciever compared to a stamped wieghs.
Find the lightest PG you can find
Sorry have not really thought about a AK pistol
There is a good thread on AK-47.net about it.
DrugRunR has you covered...
Just rember what the crime bill says in regards to pistols....
If you have a semiautomatic pistol with a detachable magazine you can ONLY ONE (1) of the above features as listed above! With an AR-15 or AK-47 style pistol that ONE (1) item will be an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
Therefore you can NOT have ANY of the other characteristics or it will be an illegal Semiautomatic Assault Weapon as defined by the law!
This is why there are lots of related topics on NON-SEMI auto pistols and/or why so many people weld a magazine to their lower. You only need to do ONE or the OTHER and the ban does not apply!
Following are a number of related topics as they relate to the AR-15 pistol....
Here are a few of my stupid posts over at AK-47.net that might help as well...
And what a wealth of information!
If the firearm is semiautomatic, has a detachable magazine and under 26 inches in length than it must not have a threaded barrel, or handgrips and it must be under 50 ounces in weight.
If the firearm is semiautomatic, has a detachable magazine and over 26 inches in length than the rifle rules determine legality.
I have a few spare receivers, an extra parts kit or two, and enough idle time to be dangerous. Let's see what happens.
I'll try to offer something constructive here.
I looked at a couple of ak barrels with gas blocks attached to view the problem of the easiest way to semi permanently block the gas.
I think DrugRunR's right in saying the gas block itself is the most reasonable place to work. I tried a 4 mm tap and it looks like it may work inside the gas block itself and allow you to screw in a plug. Whether you adhered it in place or did something fancy is up to you but it would seem that should accomplish your purpose and also be removable.