Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 4/21/2003 3:42:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2003 3:43:40 PM EDT by SMB]
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 5:58:58 PM EDT
Great kits...only they are out! I have personally seen 5 of them and they were all nice. They say they will have more in June when the next shipment is coming in.
I think the Romanian kits are nicer than the Polish kits. The romanian underfolders seem to be made sturdier than the polish....Both are in EXC condition.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 4:25:08 PM EDT
The I/O kits are refinished. They are NON-MATCHING
They are good looking kits. If you intend to screw your AK together then get the I/O kit.
If you intend to build it properly the get the POLISH kit (globaltrades.com). They are MATCHING NUMBERS
They are not refinished, and they are COMPLETELY taken apart.
I have seen 5 Global trades kits(the recently imported kits) and they all look good. 3 of the kits looked GREAT, with almost NO shots fired(barrel looked great). 2 of the kits had some minor rust on them but still looked great.

CHARLES
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 3:18:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 3:23:57 AM EDT
I thought that was just a rumor. This is bad bad bad.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 5:25:38 AM EDT
Toured around several sites, seems like the FAL's Mpi69's and PPSH-41 kits were improperly demilled. It's like the Uzi's with one inch cut out of the receiver. I think the technical branch was able to ty-wrap together some of these kits and get them to fire one round. Enough to deem them operational guns. I saw a FAL that was practically intact. I can't verify 1919a4 confiscation or AK confiscation yet. I think the barrels on new imports may be cut through the chamber to be legal.
I'm not able to look any more this morning. I think we'll be hearing more screams of outrage later today. Haven't heard of any AK confiscation yet, beyond the Yugo M-?? in 8 mm. and that was some time back. Keep looking guys, hope to see more info. later.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 7:42:25 PM EDT
There is a lot of info about I/O on the Falfiles as well. FYI

What are peoples opinions about the "for replacement parts only" with regard to building kits with non-US made receivers? Does the AK suffer from this issue as well?
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 10:19:41 PM EDT
There is a ban on building guns with the barrels currently being imported. You must use a barrel that was imported before this ban took effect. This applys to all assult style guns not just FAL's.
Link Posted: 4/25/2003 4:16:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2003 6:03:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mg34ss:
There is a ban on building guns with the barrels currently being imported. You must use a barrel that was imported before this ban took effect. This applys to all assult style guns not just FAL's.



The assembly restriction was a form 6 condition on the importer rendering importation of the kits conditional on them not assembling them into complete rifles and is not binding to third parties such as yourself.

This horse had alerady been beaten to death.
Link Posted: 4/25/2003 6:12:58 AM EDT
www.interordnance.com/letter/index.html

Odd, they didn't seem to mention the part where they shat their pants and coughed up the big list of names and addresses.
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 6:59:24 AM EDT
Geez, I had to say this and take a chance our Nazi-ATF may come looking for me. My kit was a mix of new and used parts (non-matching). The barrel and trunnion appear to be in never-fired condition . The bolt, carrier, and other parts were used and fired but refinished. This leads me to believe that IO is keeping the unfired parts and passing on the unfired barrel/trunnions since these can't be made into an assembled AK by any importer.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:11:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 5:41:39 AM EDT by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mg34ss:
There is a ban on building guns with the barrels currently being imported. You must use a barrel that was imported before this ban took effect. This applys to all assult style guns not just FAL's.



The assembly restriction was a form 6 condition on the importer rendering importation of the kits conditional on them not assembling them into complete rifles and is not binding to third parties such as yourself.

This horse had alerady been beaten to death.



Editited to add that I understand now... well I understood yesterday but the system wouldn't let me edit my message... the post above indicates that the issue has to do with importers using the barrel to build as a new gun but it does not impact the 922(r) regulations...

I am working to compile the various 922(r) regs in the following posts and after I get all of the relevant quotes together I will try to put them into a more user friendly form that I hope will cover the various issues associated with importing the parts kits and then using the parts to build a new weapon.

If anybody has anything that might help, I welcome you to add it as there are too many different oppinions on what these laws mean... perhaps by pulling the various relevant parts into a single place we can really understand what the law is so that compliance with them will be easier... or at least we will know what compliance is by knowing what the hell the law is!
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:29:20 AM EDT
You have to meet parts count. As long as what you build is 922r compliant, you are ok.

The 'pre-ban' barrel issue is a form six issue and not a 922r issue. It it an import agreement. 922r is law.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:39:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2003 10:08:55 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
OK, I found the regulations...

www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm

Following is the part that is all so commoly quoted...


[[Page 943]]

Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 178.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



Now, the way I read that, and I will need some time to read the rest of the import rules, does not make it sound like this ONLY applies to the importer...

Now, I will add some more links if I can find relevant info....

Like:

www.atf.gov/pub/ffl/2001/may/p5.htm

Here are more relevant legal links...

www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/parti_chapter44_.html

Now, the 925(d)(3) regs say...



(d) The Secretary shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be
imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if
the firearm or ammunition--
(1) is being imported or brought in for scientific or research
purposes, or is for use in connection with competition or training
pursuant to chapter 401 of title 10;
(2) is an unserviceable firearm, other than a machinegun as
defined in section 5845(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (not
readily restorable to firing condition), imported or brought in as a
curio or museum piece;
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a
firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code
of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or
readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military
firearms, except in any case where the Secretary has not authorized
the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall
be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm
which would be prohibited if assembled; or
(4) was previously taken out of the United States or a possession by the person who is bringing in the firearm or ammunition.



And finally, the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+26USC5845

Sec. 5845. Definitions

(a) Firearm

The term ``firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels
of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or
a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having
a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made
from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less
than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States
Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term ``firearm'' shall not
include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or
destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary
finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be
used as a weapon.

(b) Machinegun

The term ``machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed
to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than
one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon,
any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of
parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a
machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a
person.


Link Posted: 5/5/2003 9:46:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 10:18:40 AM EDT
Well, yes I did find some hints on Bardwell's website...

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter24.txt

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter27.txt

Now, I have also seen the following letter as a basis for why the ATF has tried to stop some of the AK parts kits from being imported...

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter37.txt

Oh well, I will try to work on compiling these regs into a more logical fashion later...

QB
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:54:41 AM EDT
I should add, that it is my understanding that the legal basis that the ATF seems to be using to confenscate the I/O parts kits is the part of the definition of a machine gun as qouted above that says....


... any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


Now, I understand that the ATF can decide that if a person with too much stub can be put back together that the ATF could decide that you have a machine gun... BUT... until the ATF asks for your parts kit that it is your property!

I really wonder what I would do if I owned one of these I/O Imbel parts kits with long receiver stubs as it would be REALLY EASY to cut, grind, file, or even SMASH the remaining receiver stub which should be legal as it WOULD BE MY PROPERTY!

Now, if the ATF would seize the kit and they decide that it is a machinegun as defined above, the ATF could charge the owner of the kit with a NFA crime (not that the ATF seems to be doing this... YET) PLUS they WILL SEIZE the kit that you legally bought!

You know, I really wonder if I would leave the stub alone or if I might help with the de-milling process?

I am glad that I am not affected by this whole I/O situation but it seems to me that people really need to evaluate their options! I have an I/O AK Parts kit on the way (I hope it is still on the way) and I sure as hell am not happy with I/O for causing all of us this problem but I aslo don't wish to help the ATF seize something that I bought legally! If the AK Kit comes with much receiver I assure you it will be cut, ground, smashed, etc to ensure it was properly demilled....




Link Posted: 5/6/2003 10:59:37 AM EDT
We've also got a couple of I/O AK parts kits on order. The last kits we got in from them had a portion of the reciever attached to the rear trunnion. The front trunnion had all the reciever removed and had been damaged in the process, but it was still usable. I'm holding my breath and hoping when the new ones get here they're not boogered up too badly.

Does anyone know when they're expected in?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 5:25:08 PM EDT
I got an i/o underfolder kit about a month ago and it only had 2" of reciever on the rear truion, every thing looks knew.
Top Top