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Posted: 3/23/2006 2:43:29 PM EDT
While I was greasing up my M14 at work today I got to thinking. Would grease (the Garand/M14 type) also work on AR rifles, specifically on the BCG in place of CLP or whanever others use. I've used it on M249 rails with no ill effects, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on an AR/M16 platform.

Any Ideas on this one?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:29:13 PM EDT
I've used Tetra grease on my AR.........no ill effects.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:37:32 PM EDT
Only thing is that on a M14, alot less crap gets back to the bolt, with the piston and the open-top receiver. I'd want something a little more fluid for an AR, so crap back in the bcg and upper can flow away somewhat, out from between metal contact surfaces. Grease would trap more fouling in place, where it can cause more wear.

JMO, anyway...
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38:29 PM EDT
I don't like grease because I live in an enviornment with a lot of fine dust. Just something to think about.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:39:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:53:32 PM EDT by ReefRaider]
I use Mil-Comm tw25B on all the BCG of my ARs . www.mil-comm.com

ETA If you think dust is a PITA try salt water some time. I just about pack my uppers with this stuff tw25B.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:25:51 PM EDT
I grease up all my AR's buffer tube BCG upper receiver charging handle I just lather it on I used RIG and white auto grease. works very well. Derick Martin does it too.. Accuracy speaks, owner. Good enough for him I'm sold on it too. BTW Dillon precision uses it on his mini guns the grease keeps fine dust in the grease and not in the guns action. 762
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:14:17 PM EDT
i use militec-1 oil and grease on all of my firearms...good stuff!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:44:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 3:46:40 AM EDT by EntryTac]

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:
I use Mil-Comm tw25B on all the BCG of my ARs . www.mil-comm.com

ETA If you think dust is a PITA try salt water some time. I just about pack my uppers with this stuff tw25B.



I've been using TW25B on the BCG as well with great results. I intentionally fired +/- 300 rounds over a couple days in class without cleaning just to see if I'd have any issues or stoppages in as many rounds. Flawless performance with no signs of any issues with TW25B grease. Also noted that the fouling build up on load bearing surfaces, or elsewhere, wasn't any worse than when using CLP. I'm sold on 25B. I would have fired more rounds before cleaning, but I'm anal retentive about maintaining my guns... It took all I had to let it go 300 rounds without a detail cleaning and lube job...
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:01:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EntryTac:
It took all I had to let it go 300 rounds without a detail cleaning and lube job...



Are you serious? 300 rounds isn't shit.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:29:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sd_Kfz_182:
Any Ideas on this one?



Grease was initially tried on the M16E1s when they were first developed (note the grease pot in the early -12 manuals). But it was quickly dropped for LSA then CLP. Grease has a tendency to attract and keep small particles which is not good.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:09:49 AM EDT
If you clean your weapon regularly, small particles won't likely build up to the point of failure.

If you expect to expend 1000 rounds in ten minutes, grease is the way to go. TW25b gets high marks, but my personal favorite is good 'ole GMD. (Grease, molybdenum dysulfide.) Sure, it causes cancer, but what doesn't?

We fire a thousand or more rounds a day through an M4 during traning. With oil, I find students constantly need to relube before proceeding. You can always tell who hasn't lubed up. He's the guy looking at his weapon like a hog looks at a wrist watch.

I've experimented with white lithium, and found it to work though it doesn't have that fresh... M1 tank exhaust smell that TW25 reminds me of.

Oil has a habit of getting blown out of the working parts. Miltec leaves a slight film, but nothing like a good grease does. My last Sig armorers course... the instructor said that Sig is using the TW25B as an anti-sieze, much like Glock uses that copper colored stuff.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:37:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Sd_Kfz_182:
Any Ideas on this one?



Grease was initially tried on the M16E1s when they were first developed (note the grease pot in the early -12 manuals). But it was quickly dropped for LSA then CLP. Grease has a tendency to attract and keep small particles which is not good.



+1

There's a reason the military stopped using grease.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 12:44:48 PM EDT
All depends on how you are using your firearms. Grease may well not be optimum (for the AR) in a combat environment.

With that said, grease may well be a good choice for other situations. I like grease in a defensive firearm since it stays put, won't flow onto ammo or down into barrels, or out into holsters etc. For typical non-combat firearms use (shoot, clean afterwards, store) grease is also fine. I like to use a little grease on the high wear areas of the BCG like the cam pin, and the bearing surfaces of the bolt and BC.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 2:10:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:

Originally Posted By EntryTac:
It took all I had to let it go 300 rounds without a detail cleaning and lube job...



Are you serious? 300 rounds isn't shit.



Yes, I'm serious. As I said, I'm anal retentive about firearms maintenance. Well, except for my Glocks. Not quite as anal about them. Just always been that way. Now, if I put 500 rounds through it at the range in one session I wouldn't stop and clean it until I was done (except in the event of a failure/stoppage). I clean and lube them every session though, whether I shoot 50 rounds or 500.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:31:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Grease was initially tried on the M16E1s when they were first developed (note the grease pot in the early -12 manuals). But it was quickly dropped for LSA then CLP. Grease has a tendency to attract and keep small particles which is not good.



Grease = small particles suspended in lubricant
CLP = small particles left behind when the lubricant burned off

The particles are still there either way. The only question is whether the lubricant is still there. With grease the answer is "Yes" and with CLP the answer is "No." I took a week-long class with three 1000rnd+ days. Grease worked on those days. CLP didn't. Spray-on white lithium grease from Kragen worked better than CLP.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:53:18 PM EDT
All greases are not created equal either.The TW-25B is is not the same as NLGI II class automotive greases.Check out the ASTM documents on the Mil-comm web site.Mil-comm also offers a semi fluid that reminds me of LSA-T.
IMHO the TW-25B is just a vis oil.No soaps either,as the body is PTFE with a synthetic oil mixture and additives.
The TW-25B is a weapons based grease and has the op temps high and low.Its also tested and rated for high dust environments.If applied as per specified in the manufacturers application instructions it does not trap and hold debris.
I know one member here,S-28, that has ran the stuff through many MG's and many many rounds.Ive also ran the TW-25B EP through a friends MG's,M2's mostly,at the local MG shoots and the TW-25B stays put.Once the weapon is heated from firing the stuff penetrates like mad too.Not one failure in two days of pretty much constant fire,and the TW-25B was still in place with very little fouling.Clean up basically was a wipe down with a clean cloth in the receivers and relubed.
Been running the TW-25B on my pistols for over three years and not a single issue.I shoot alot too.Clean up is basically a wipe with a clean dry cloth and a few q-tips.Bores get old #9.
Ive hammered the TW-25B in my AR's as well.
Plus the Mil-comm smells pretty good.Reminds me of Hawaiian Tropic suntan lotion everytime.
Yeah I swear by the stuff.
The Tetra grease is very close to the Mil-comm with a slightly higher viscosity...probably due to the gel like carrier they use.But if applied as recommended it works just about as well as the Mil-comm as a lube....but from my experience the Tetra grease does not offer as good of corrosion protection as TW-25B.Plus I believe there is some issues with the Tetra grease on some finishes and polymers.Thats what I heard anyway,personally Ive seen no problems with the stuff other than its smells a bit nasty when heated.
Yall thats using the TW-25B try mixing the EP spray.Take care using it on cheap painted weapons though,the alcohol cuts some of the cheap paints.The EP makes application much easier and consistant.If mixed and applied right you get the perfect amount on the surfaces without over lubing.So apply,let sit for a about twenty minutes to allow the alcohol to evaporate and assemble.Good to go.
Only other weapons lube I have found that holds up almost as well as Mil-comm as a lube is FP-10.Note I say almost.
So yeah I like weapons specific greases,I particularly like TW-25B most of all.They stay put for months in storage and carry,in use they lube better and longer than any oil I have tried.
And before its asked no I do not work for Mil-comm,MPC or Tetra.Im just a gun nut who likes his choice of gun lubes.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:44:30 PM EDT
I've used FP10 for years, but have reciently switched to Du-Lite Kwikseal. Runs less with long term storage, and tends to last longer durring a shooting session. I own a lot of guns, (over 60) and long term storage is just as important to me. Kwikseal and RIG is the oil and grease I use because they work, and stay put when you put them on and stick the gun away for a long time. Between the blackpowder guns, and the corrosive milsurp ammo that leave corrosive salts that get flushed out with water, I feel better knowing the oil and grease I put on after are still there when I pick the gun up months later. FP10 works ok for shooting, but I don't store my guns with it. So after trying a number of oils, I settled on Kwikseal. And RIG is for those areas that need grease, like in my M1 Garand and Hakim.

As for attracting dirt particles, if it gets windy and sand gets blown on my guns, I will replace the lube on the action often. Sand/grit will stick to whatever you have on your gun, grease or oil. I don't care what brand it is, grit will stick to it. Guns are expensive, oil is cheap. Change it out if it gets gritty.

Lois
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:46:20 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:44:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Sd_Kfz_182:
Any Ideas on this one?



Grease was initially tried on the M16E1s when they were first developed (note the grease pot in the early -12 manuals). But it was quickly dropped for LSA then CLP. Grease has a tendency to attract and keep small particles which is not good.



+1

There's a reason the military stopped using grease.



The military still uses grease.Maybe not on M16's but on all mg's. At least we did.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:49:08 AM EDT
Anybody try the grease by Brownells called "Action Lube Plus "?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:13:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 9:55:41 AM EDT by Tempest45]
Damn Blankwaffe...you've got even me thinking about using TW25B!!

IMHO, normal semi-auto firearms have no reason to use grease. There simply is not enough heat / force to warrant all the problems that come along with grease.
Grease = sticky = high viscosity = slow moving parts. Said it before, I'll say it again. Grease is best used in slow moving applications because the internal friction of a lube (viscosity. drag) is increased by how fast the two parts are moving. The faster the movement, the higher the drag. So when you cycle a weapon by hand it feels great (slow), but the moving parts will encounter much greater resistance under normal operating conditions (fast).

Belt fed machine guns are a totally different animal though. With these ammo munchers, heat and stress are very major concerns. Mini-guns @ 75 RPS...well lets just say that heat is THE concern (except maybe getting enough ammo!). The heat from these weapons will cause the lube inside to thin (less viscosity), so there will be much less drag from the thicker lubes once the weapon has heated up.

Anyone that has drained an oil pan from a freshly driven car will see that the warm oil runs much more easily than the room temperature stuff in the bottle. Same goes for the grease in the wheel bearings. The grease in the can behaves like mud after a good rainstorm, but put it in a wheel hub going 1000+ RPM (especially disc brakes), and I guarantee you it will get whole thinner (less viscous/drag).

I think a lot of people forget about these different operating conditions when choosing a gun lube. That being said, I think TW25B is a good product and use it in my double action revolver mechanisms (slow moving parts). These parts are also deep inside the gun and are pretty well shielded from debris. It is also (as Blank said) designed specifically for firearms and is closer to a cream than a typical grease. It is the ONLY "grease" that will get anywhere close to my guns.

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:51:02 AM EDT
i use the tetra grease mixed with rem oil, works great.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tempest45:
Damn Blankwaffe...you've got even me thinking about using TW25B!!

IMHO, normal semi-auto firearms have no reason to use grease. There simply is not enough heat / force to warrant all the problems that come along with grease.
Grease = sticky = high viscosity = slow moving parts. Said it before, I'll say it again. Grease is best used in slow moving applications because the internal friction of a lube (viscosity. drag) is increased by how fast the two parts are moving. The faster the movement, the higher the drag. So when you cycle a weapon by hand it feels great (slow), but the moving parts will encounter much greater resistance under normal operating conditions (fast).

Belt fed machine guns are a totally different animal though. With these ammo munchers, heat and stress are very major concerns. Mini-guns @ 75 RPS...well lets just say that heat is THE concern (except maybe getting enough ammo!). The heat from these weapons will cause the lube inside to thin (less viscosity), so there will be much less drag from the thicker lubes once the weapon has heated up.

Anyone that has drained an oil pan from a freshly driven car will see that the warm oil runs much more easily than the room temperature stuff in the bottle. Same goes for the grease in the wheel bearings. The grease in the can behaves like mud after a good rainstorm, but put it in a wheel hub going 1000+ RPM (especially disc brakes), and I guarantee you it will get whole thinner (less viscous/drag).

I think a lot of people forget about these different operating conditions when choosing a gun lube. That being said, I think TW25B is a good product and use it in my double action revolver mechanisms (slow moving parts). These parts are also deep inside the gun and are pretty well shielded from debris. It is also (as Blank said) designed specifically for firearms and is closer to a cream than a typical grease. It is the ONLY "grease" that will get anywhere close to my guns.




Good post Tempest...but like I said not all greases are the same...particularly the TW-25B,totally different animal than NLGI II heavy bearing greases or otherwise as you also noted.To compare there you would have to drag out the MC1210.The TW-25B is just a oil and additive base with a PTFE body as you also probably know.Thats why the temp rating is so low and the fact it can be applied to basically a dry film.PTFE does not influence the viscosity of the oil base like soaps can.
Regardless Im a greaser in heart.Ive banged heads with George Fennell at FP-10 on the subject as well.Which it seems you have the same mind set as he does on the subject.
I do agree totally that greases such as PL-10,Militec grease and MC1210 have no place in a weapon,even say on the op rod of a M1 or M1A,for that I prefer lubriplate 130A.TW25B is too thin and flings out all over,including your face,in a couple rounds.
Later
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:27:11 PM EDT
"Grease" as most of us old Farts know it, resembles Wolfshead red as it comes out of the grease gun.

Heavy, Sticky, and thicker than Molasses in febuary.


It ain't so when it comes to modern Firearm Specific grease.

TW25B and Tetra have the consistency of "Noxema"facial cleanser.
(Admit it gang... I ain't the only one that has used it to remove the cammie Make up!")

TW25B is something like 30% Atomized PTFE which means the luricating solids are SMALLER than the pores of the steel and will gather there.

Applied properly, then wiped dry to the eye, lubrication and friction reduction is at a level no oil is capable of to 40 below zero.

Yes, i have frozen a rifle or two trying to find out.
Sadly, the best I could get was 30 below, and a CO2 extinguisher was used to push the effort.

The stuff might be "grease", but it ain't grease!

Apply, wipe it dry, and run it if you are in the dust.

Leave a thin coat if you are in the tropics, or Humid Mid-west (As we do).

Have run over 1,000 rounds of stinky Wolf after a level 1 application with no malfunctions in a Bushy, and in a Mil-spec LMT M4.

Have more than many Dozen M4's that thrive on the stuff that ain't missed a beat yet, while under the scrutiny of an anal retentive Federal agency.

Granted.
If the things were to be cleaned and re-lubed daily with a single product, I might be happy with something else.

Reality is that it ain't the situation unless you are a grunt, and even grunts appreciate the lattitude.

24-7 X 30+ days between cleaning, combined with the capacity of running 3 times load out in 2 hours many times over....

"Grease" as it is now, ain't bad.

If ya still doubt, holler at Mike Dillon or the folks that maintain the Toys in the basement at Bragg.


CLP is good stuff.

Just am asking that folks keep the eyeballs and brain housing group open to what it is that "Grease" is these days.


Ya might be surprised.

Stay safe!
S-28


P.S.
Complete data and application info is available at the Mil-Comm Website.
I don't work for them, ain't paid by them, and frankly they get some good bucks from me through my Employment, and as a customer.
Hell......

I run the stuff on the Motorcycle chain(100+HP Bike) , and on several agricultural impliments that are in a sandy environment.

Call 1-888-9GREASE.

Ask for Gordon Furlong.

I'm a hick, Grunt, Farmer/Reserve Cop.
He can tell ya the petrochemical stuff and why it works.

.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:16:14 PM EDT
I'll have to admit that my knowledge of PTFE products is limited due to the fact that I generally don't like solid particle lubes (graphite, moly, etc.), so most of my research has been into liquid lubes (FP10, Corrosion X, etc.). Because of this, I may be missing something.

According to Mil-Comm's web sight:


TW-25B® is based on a proprietary PTFE-based technology. Mil-Comm’s particle is smaller and spherical in shape.


I see this (TW25B) as a sea of millions of microscopic ball bearings all piled on top of one another, tyring to move past one another. I could see how this might work if the density is high enough that the valleys between the asperities (microscopic crystalline mountains on the metal surface) get filled, effectively providing a smooth surface. But, how does this work in low concentration? (EP, CLP) The individual molecules are way smaller than the asperities (not to mention tooling marks) so a low concentration would just have the PTFE stuck down in the valleys not doing anything. Because of this, the PTFE molecules won't be providing the "ball bearing" effect that a spherical molecule would suggest. The carrier oils above the asperities would be doing all the work.

Also, I'm not sure that "sphere stacking" (similar to oranges stacked in the supermarket) is the best geometry for lubrication.

Just found this on Bob is the oil guy:


PTFE (Teflon) micropowders do made a good grease thickener. PTFE can be classified as a universal gellant, and can be used with any synthetic or mineral oil, but excels with synthetic oils. It thickens because of its low surface tension, surface area, and dispersability in most organic fluids. Only 20 to 40% of thickener is needed for PTFE greases, so most of the grease package contains oil.


So the amount of PTFE, even in grease, is fairly low. S28's %30 number sounds good, and would explain the low viscosity of TW25B. This means that the base oils are the primary component of the product.

Plus, PTFE is miscible with nothing but it's self, so the particles WILL eventually fall out of suspension. CLP is famous for this, and I have seen several people complain about Mil-comm doing this also. The EP instructions even say to shake a bottle before use. I'm concerned about what effect this will have on the lubricant if left on a weapon for extended periods.

That's my take on it. If I've missed something, please enlighten.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:06:08 PM EDT
hmm I know about the wd 40 thing. Use ClP mostly. didn't relize it was so expensive, Hated those 1 gallon containers we would get it in. Was handed a handfull of little tubes before heading to the desert this time around. It was tw25b. Used it out there. like usual very sparse. fired a few rounds and never had malfunction.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:52:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 10:36:40 AM EDT by hepcat85]

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:

Originally Posted By EntryTac:
It took all I had to let it go 300 rounds without a detail cleaning and lube job...



Are you serious? 300 rounds isn't shit.



I put 1500 rounds through my Fulton and the Tetra held up GREAT. No issues. Aside from the carrier and interior, not too many places to grease up anyway.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:36:53 PM EDT
Lubriplate. The original ubergrease.
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