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Posted: 2/20/2006 12:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 12:56:55 PM EDT by metroplex]
I finally saw the PTFE "cloud" in RemOil! It does not appear in suspension at the store or in room temperature. However, I kept this bottle of RemOil out in the garage (unheated) and I went to grab it today only to see a white "glob" at the bottom. I shook it and there it was, all the particles now in precipitate form. I think it might be the same effect as fat in soup. When you freeze it, it all becomes a goop that you can scoop out but you can never put it into suspension without heating it or boiling it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:17:15 PM EDT
I still don't understand why PTFE is used in some gun oils when it has been found to turn into acid in tempurtures that guns see.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:11:35 PM EDT
I know Ive mentioned this in the past,so forgive the repeat.
PTFE burns at 1% per hour at 900F.Now thats a sustained temp,not just hot for a few seconds or minutes.So I suspect that if you heat your weapon up to that temp for lets say an hour,which is when the slight possibilty of the PTFE creating HF/hydrofluoric concerns,then there is going to be many other concerns with the weapon.Namely pretty much anything polymer is gone,barrel warp and I sure the aluminum receivers are going to suffer dramtically.You know we are talking about right at cherry red type hot man.
I dont buy the accuracy issues either.Personally I think most of this is internet and some gun oil manufacturers hype for the most part.If PTFE caused corrosion Im pretty sure that it would be evident with the PTFE coated cookware we have seen for the last decade or so.Personally I have yet to see a hole in a frying pan caused by acids from heating PTFE coatings up.The coatings do come off and are damaged very easy,but thats it.Yeah Ive accidentally set fire to a PTFE coated pan before.Im not a good cook.
Furthermore I have used gun oils containing PTFE for well over 16 years and have yet to see an issue,corrosion or accuracy,in that time.That includes using Mil-comm which probably contains more PTFE than anything on the market besides Tetra.
So I would not get caught up in it all too much.The environment will get your metal objects long before the PTFE.
Some other oils cause hydrochloric acids/halides at much lower temps.Also burning some pure state oils creates acids just from the petro base as byproducts.
Another key function to look at also is the fact that most of the decent gun oils use some sort of inhibitor package to further reduce any issues.Break Free has contained PTFE in its formula from the start.Thats been around 20 years now.I think if there was going to be a problem we would have seen it.
So Im not on the PTFE bashing boat.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:13:26 PM EDT
Interesting findings Metroplex...I will have to try that with the new formula Break Free CLP that looks PTFE challenged.Will report back on my findings.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:38:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blankwaffe98:
I know Ive mentioned this in the past,so forgive the repeat.
PTFE burns at 1% per hour at 900F.Now thats a sustained temp,not just hot for a few seconds or minutes.So I suspect that if you heat your weapon up to that temp for lets say an hour,which is when the slight possibilty of the PTFE creating HF/hydrofluoric concerns,then there is going to be many other concerns with the weapon.Namely pretty much anything polymer is gone,barrel warp and I sure the aluminum receivers are going to suffer dramtically.You know we are talking about right at cherry red type hot man.
I dont buy the accuracy issues either.Personally I think most of this is internet and some gun oil manufacturers hype for the most part.If PTFE caused corrosion Im pretty sure that it would be evident with the PTFE coated cookware we have seen for the last decade or so.Personally I have yet to see a hole in a frying pan caused by acids from heating PTFE coatings up.The coatings do come off and are damaged very easy,but thats it.Yeah Ive accidentally set fire to a PTFE coated pan before.Im not a good cook.
Furthermore I have used gun oils containing PTFE for well over 16 years and have yet to see an issue,corrosion or accuracy,in that time.That includes using Mil-comm which probably contains more PTFE than anything on the market besides Tetra.
So I would not get caught up in it all too much.The environment will get your metal objects long before the PTFE.
Some other oils cause hydrochloric acids/halides at much lower temps.Also burning some pure state oils creates acids just from the petro base as byproducts.
Another key function to look at also is the fact that most of the decent gun oils use some sort of inhibitor package to further reduce any issues.Break Free has contained PTFE in its formula from the start.Thats been around 20 years now.I think if there was going to be a problem we would have seen it.
So Im not on the PTFE bashing boat.



Good stuff Blankwaffe! I believe you but I was wondering if you have any links to the temps at which PTFE turns to acid? I use to use PTFE oils like Breakfree, Tetra and Mil-Comm till I found out about the acid thing...it worried me. I'd like to use them agian especially Mil-Comm if my worries can be put to rest.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:16:41 AM EDT
This PDF (page 9) shows that @405*C (761*F) PTFE degrades @ 0.01% per hour. There is also some incineration information at the top of page #13. 5-10mg (0.0003527396 ounce) of HF (Hydrogen Fluoride) per cubic meter are released when burned.

This is a very small amount HF indeed. The tiny amount of HF released by the already small quantity of gun oil/grease in a weapon would be an absoulute non-factor in my eyes.

PTFE MSDS

TW25B MSDS
Which states: Conditions to avoid - Sustained temp over 600*F...

Again, should not be a problem in firearm use.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:32:15 AM EDT
Does anyone know how hot a gun barrel can get. Say how hot a full 30 round mag emptyed rapid fire will get the barrel?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:00:37 PM EDT
SS40,
Just do a internet search and start reading.There is tons of information out there on the subject.Your local library will have some informtion as well.
The possible corrosive state created when burning PTFE is a moot point as far as Im concerned with weapons.Its just too remote to be considered for my uses.
If your worried about possible barrel damage from the PTFE burning on ignition,well thats moot too.Like I said the byproducts of most oils,even synthetics are acidic to some extent and are present when burned.The fact that most of the PTFE is blown out of the bore on ignition,and that PTFE sticks to nothing,including itself...I'd say what little amount was there to start with is gone after a few rounds regardless.
The erosive character of the powder when fired in the bore does more damage to the barrel than what little PTFE remains will do.Not to mention the friction of the bullet grinding its way through all the fouling that remains in the bore after each shot.
If you read about it,and get all tied up in it all you will end up not even wanting to shoot your weapons,gun oil or not.Personally I think it all gets blown out of proportion.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:15:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Does anyone know how hot a gun barrel can get. Say how hot a full 30 round mag emptyed rapid fire will get the barrel?



I dont know how hot they get.I know that on the third 30 mag the oil smokes off the barrel.
Ive had my AR's so hot that the receivers get warm.Ive also seen M2 barrels get so hot you can see heat waves roll off.
Like I said Im not worried about any of it either way.But hey,I still shoot corrosive ammo in alot of my firearms and black powder.Thats just about as bad as one can get.It all comes down to PM in the end no matter how you look at it.
I have yet to see an issue with PTFE up to this point in my life,and I aint gona start worrying about it now.
I guess if there is concern some of the polymer/PTFE gun finishes used on some folks toys should be kept below 600F too for extended periods.
You do know that the plastcizers/chlorinated compounds are used in polymers.When they burn you get hydrochloric acid.
Oh the horror...
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:34:12 AM EDT
I had kept my aerosol can of BF CLP out in the same temperatures as the Remoil but I have never seen the PTFE "cloud".

I usually just spray the CLP into a small bottle for better dispensing. I had a can of WD-40 PTFE lube (its not WD-40 but its made by the same company, I can't think of the name at this time) and sprayed it into the bottle. Immediately I saw the white particle cloud "form". After shaking well, it has not reappeared again.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:50:03 AM EDT
IIRC, the trade name for PTFE is Teflon (yes, the same stuff inside your wifes' frying pans!) and is in the Guinness Book of World Records as the slipperiest substance now known to man (but that was a few years ago). Correct?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:17:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tenmikemike:
IIRC, the trade name for PTFE is Teflon (yes, the same stuff inside your wifes' frying pans!) and is in the Guinness Book of World Records as the slipperiest substance now known to man (but that was a few years ago). Correct?



Basically yes. Teflon has pretty much the lowest coeffecients of friction at normal temperatures unless something new has come along recently.

The HF acid that is a byproduct of thermal decomposition of PTFE is not enough to worry about. HF is a very strong and reactive acid, which means that its life span in small quantities in a reactive environment is extremely short. (think a single free cold beer on a hot summer night at a frat party with a hundred patrons) It isn't going to be around long enough or in enough quantity to hurt anything. You probably do more damage with each round fired than you would from all the HF generated from a kilogram of Teflon.
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