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Posted: 9/17/2018 7:54:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Our staff and I get to occasionally inspect and consult on blown up and problematic firearms, and we document what we find. I am hoping you can shed a little light on your rifle. You state that you clean it approximately every 500rds, can you explain what you clean with and what your cleaning procedure was?
CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/18/2018 2:22:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Our staff and I get to occasionally inspect and consult on blown up and problematic firearms, and we document what we find. I am hoping you can shed a little light on your rifle. You state that you clean it approximately every 500rds, can you explain what you clean with and what your cleaning procedure was? |
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Posted: 9/18/2018 6:22:54 PM EDT
[#3]
How and what you use to clean and lube would be helpful.
Hence bore and chamber should be kept dry, and if you where lubing to the point that you did get a lot of lube into the bore during the shot string, the excess of lube in the bore could have cause the ammo to go high over pressure to the point that it could cause a case failure. The correct way to lube the AR upper receiver, is to just pull the B/C, CLP lube it inside and out, put the B/C back in upper, then empty cycle the rig a few times to migrate the lube off the B/C, to the upper receiver bearing surfaces. Some of the lube will migrate to the ammo when the rifle is cycling, but CLP is a thin lube, and will not build up enough amounts of lube in the surface of the bore to cause over pressure problems. Also, if the rifle was stored lubed on the heaver side (including the bore to prevent rusting in it as well), then you need to run dry patches down the bore before the rifle is put into service to remove any collected lubes in the rifle chamber and bore. |
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Posted: 9/18/2018 11:50:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Our staff and I get to occasionally inspect and consult on blown up and problematic firearms, and we document what we find. I am hoping you can shed a little light on your rifle. You state that you clean it approximately every 500rds, can you explain what you clean with and what your cleaning procedure was? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 We’re dealing with a rifle that’s got ~1700 or so rounds through it. No previous issues. And cleaned about 200 rounds ago. So I’m just not seeing how the rifle or cleaning regimen is worth digging into much further. Unless OP left a chamber brush in there, and then managed to sneak a couple rounds past it before the obstruction caused an issue. Again, if the OP did something wrong by letting his rifle go without cleaning for 200, 500, or even 1000 rounds, we all need to invest in a different platform. How can anyone go take a class or shoot a competition with a rifle that becomes a powder keg after a few 100 rounds are sent downrange. How can we explain and champion the “Filthy 14”. Or the Lucky Gunner test where they took 4 different rifles and ran 10,000 rounds through each in an afternoon; with almost no lube and even less cleaning. Or the meltdowns and torture tests conducted by YT creators like IV8888, AKOU, etc. If we want to go down the over lubed (or improperly lubed) route, that’s also not a very fruitful focus. For every one example of under lubrication/cleaning, or none of either at all, there’s an example of someone over lubing. Yes, improper lubrication and cleaning can cause some failures. But we’re taking non-catastrophic failures. Not KBs. Again, if the AR platform were that volatile, we’d have abandoned it long ago. While I’m aware of the inference that lube in the barrel or chamber can cause pressure spikes that result in catastrophic failure, reality indicates that it’s tremendously overstated. Right up there with things like the need to stagger gas rings, or the idea that a carbine with an non-F marked FSB is basically worthless. Do we really think that OP is the exception to the average AR owner when it comes to cleaning? So extreme an outlier in his lubrication method, that it’s reasonable to believe it caused the KB? Because when you can do this to an AR, and not even encounter a minor failure, it’s hard to chase the “OP didn’t lube it right” angle. What I’m getting at is, if it’s a city in France, it’s probably Paris. There is a strong indication that something is seriously wrong with the Frontier line of ammo. Maybe not all, but we can cite multiple KBs and other overpressure events that are all traced back to this one line of ammo. Different lots. Different rifles. So, for most of us, I’d bet the following are far more common questions in our minds... Are certain rounds overcharged? Could there issues with a bad batch of brass? Is it potentially a primer related problem? I’m sure there are more questions I could pose. Regardless, they all go back to one thing...the ammo. |
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Posted: 9/19/2018 4:39:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Still not weeding out ammo itself as the problem (over charge or weak case), but have seen too many times operator error to cause a KB, and someone posting in a round about way trying to blame a given ammo type for an operator mistake isntead.
As stated, Hornady will need to inspect the rig to weed out if there was a barrel obstruction or ammo that caused the problem, and if it found to be the ammo that caused the problem, all ammo manufacturers carry insurance for just such events. Hell, pretty sure that every major ammo manufacturer has had an ammo recall more than a few times that has caused a Rig to KB, and if the ammo is at fault, then bank that it will be recalls on the ammo as well. |
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Posted: 9/19/2018 5:01:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still not weeding out ammo itself as the problem (over charge or weak case), but have seen too many times operator error to cause a KB, and someone posting in a round about way trying to blame a given ammo type for an operator mistake isntead. As stated, Hornady will need to inspect the rig to weed out if there was a barrel obstruction or ammo that caused the problem, and if it found to be the ammo that caused the problem, all ammo manufacturers carry insurance for just such events. Hell, pretty sure that every major ammo manufacturer has had an ammo recall more than a few times that has caused a Rig to KB, and if the ammo is at fault, then bank that it will be recalls on the ammo as well. I mean isn’t my only job to not shove rocks in the chamber and pull the trigger? Is there a self destruct lever that looks like a trigger? And seriously - now we are also blaming cleaning for rifle explosions? |
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Posted: 9/19/2018 6:28:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With all due respect, if this were the proximate result of a cleaning issue (or lack thereof), we’d see KB’d rifles every day of the week. I’m not saying a rifle’s condition is something that should be ignored. Yet given what’s been shared here, and what we know of similar issues with this same brand of ammo, focusing on OP’s rifle seems...questionable. I’m sure there are more questions I could pose. Regardless, they all go back to one thing...the ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Our staff and I get to occasionally inspect and consult on blown up and problematic firearms, and we document what we find. I am hoping you can shed a little light on your rifle. You state that you clean it approximately every 500rds, can you explain what you clean with and what your cleaning procedure was? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 I’m sure there are more questions I could pose. Regardless, they all go back to one thing...the ammo. I agree with you. This sounds like a clear case of ammo failure. |
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Posted: 9/19/2018 11:24:58 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Our staff and I get to occasionally inspect and consult on blown up and problematic firearms, and we document what we find. I am hoping you can shed a little light on your rifle. You state that you clean it approximately every 500rds, can you explain what you clean with and what your cleaning procedure was? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 1:27:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you work for Hornady or have you been contacted by them to investigate their ammo failures? IMO, your post sounds like something an investigator would ask to get the OP to back himself into a corner so Hornady could then say "see he didnt clean his rifle correctly so it's no our fault". CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 1:41:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all due respect, if this were the proximate result of a cleaning issue (or lack thereof), we’d see KB’d rifles every day of the week. I’m not saying a rifle’s condition is something that should be ignored. Yet given what’s been shared here, and what we know of similar issues with this same brand of ammo, focusing on OP’s rifle seems...questionable. We’re dealing with a rifle that’s got ~1700 or so rounds through it. No previous issues. And cleaned about 200 rounds ago. So I’m just not seeing how the rifle or cleaning regimen is worth digging into much further. Unless OP left a chamber brush in there, and then managed to sneak a couple rounds past it before the obstruction caused an issue. Again, if the OP did something wrong by letting his rifle go without cleaning for 200, 500, or even 1000 rounds, we all need to invest in a different platform. How can anyone go take a class or shoot a competition with a rifle that becomes a powder keg after a few 100 rounds are sent downrange. How can we explain and champion the “Filthy 14”. Or the Lucky Gunner test where they took 4 different rifles and ran 10,000 rounds through each in an afternoon; with almost no lube and even less cleaning. Or the meltdowns and torture tests conducted by YT creators like IV8888, AKOU, etc. If we want to go down the over lubed (or improperly lubed) route, that’s also not a very fruitful focus. For every one example of under lubrication/cleaning, or none of either at all, there’s an example of someone over lubing. Yes, improper lubrication and cleaning can cause some failures. But we’re taking non-catastrophic failures. Not KBs. Again, if the AR platform were that volatile, we’d have abandoned it long ago. While I’m aware of the inference that lube in the barrel or chamber can cause pressure spikes that result in catastrophic failure, reality indicates that it’s tremendously overstated. Right up there with things like the need to stagger gas rings, or the idea that a carbine with an non-F marked FSB is basically worthless. Do we really think that OP is the exception to the average AR owner when it comes to cleaning? So extreme an outlier in his lubrication method, that it’s reasonable to believe it caused the KB? Because when you can do this to an AR, and not even encounter a minor failure, it’s hard to chase the “OP didn’t lube it right” angle. What I’m getting at is, if it’s a city in France, it’s probably Paris. There is a strong indication that something is seriously wrong with the Frontier line of ammo. Maybe not all, but we can cite multiple KBs and other overpressure events that are all traced back to this one line of ammo. Different lots. Different rifles. So, for most of us, I’d bet the following are far more common questions in our minds... Are certain rounds overcharged? Could there issues with a bad batch of brass? Is it potentially a primer related problem? I’m sure there are more questions I could pose. Regardless, they all go back to one thing...the ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted: With all due respect, if this were the proximate result of a cleaning issue (or lack thereof), we’d see KB’d rifles every day of the week. I’m not saying a rifle’s condition is something that should be ignored. Yet given what’s been shared here, and what we know of similar issues with this same brand of ammo, focusing on OP’s rifle seems...questionable. We’re dealing with a rifle that’s got ~1700 or so rounds through it. No previous issues. And cleaned about 200 rounds ago. So I’m just not seeing how the rifle or cleaning regimen is worth digging into much further. Unless OP left a chamber brush in there, and then managed to sneak a couple rounds past it before the obstruction caused an issue. Again, if the OP did something wrong by letting his rifle go without cleaning for 200, 500, or even 1000 rounds, we all need to invest in a different platform. How can anyone go take a class or shoot a competition with a rifle that becomes a powder keg after a few 100 rounds are sent downrange. How can we explain and champion the “Filthy 14”. Or the Lucky Gunner test where they took 4 different rifles and ran 10,000 rounds through each in an afternoon; with almost no lube and even less cleaning. Or the meltdowns and torture tests conducted by YT creators like IV8888, AKOU, etc. If we want to go down the over lubed (or improperly lubed) route, that’s also not a very fruitful focus. For every one example of under lubrication/cleaning, or none of either at all, there’s an example of someone over lubing. Yes, improper lubrication and cleaning can cause some failures. But we’re taking non-catastrophic failures. Not KBs. Again, if the AR platform were that volatile, we’d have abandoned it long ago. While I’m aware of the inference that lube in the barrel or chamber can cause pressure spikes that result in catastrophic failure, reality indicates that it’s tremendously overstated. Right up there with things like the need to stagger gas rings, or the idea that a carbine with an non-F marked FSB is basically worthless. Do we really think that OP is the exception to the average AR owner when it comes to cleaning? So extreme an outlier in his lubrication method, that it’s reasonable to believe it caused the KB? Because when you can do this to an AR, and not even encounter a minor failure, it’s hard to chase the “OP didn’t lube it right” angle. What I’m getting at is, if it’s a city in France, it’s probably Paris. There is a strong indication that something is seriously wrong with the Frontier line of ammo. Maybe not all, but we can cite multiple KBs and other overpressure events that are all traced back to this one line of ammo. Different lots. Different rifles. So, for most of us, I’d bet the following are far more common questions in our minds... Are certain rounds overcharged? Could there issues with a bad batch of brass? Is it potentially a primer related problem? I’m sure there are more questions I could pose. Regardless, they all go back to one thing...the ammo. Quoted:
Have you inspected any of the empty casings from the ammunition you had fired? If so, were there any signs of over pressure, punctured primers, missing primers, creased or deformed cases, etc, that would give any type of indication as to what is going on? You state that you have shot 1700rds of mixed ammunition through the rifle, but I do not see any information in regards to maintenance. Have you cleaned the rifle, if so then could you explain when and how? Your specs listed above indicate you have a PSA CHF upper, and PSA complete lower, was this something you assembled yourself into a rifle, or did it come direct from PSA as a built rifle? If the upper receiver assembly was purchased separately, did it come from PSA with the bolt carrier assembly installed, or was the bolt carrier assembly purchased separately? Have you inspected and gauged anything on the rifle for things like proper headspace, firing pin protrusion, etc? Have you changed out anything on the rifle like the buffer, action spring (buffer spring), trigger group, hammer spring, etc? CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 Other posters here have already concluded the ammunition is at fault. To conclude that the ammunition is the exact cause of why this happened, may be premature, as I am not aware of anyone in this thread who stated that the ammunition was at fault saying that they have done a thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings. The cause of the rifle blowing up may be due to the ammunition, and it may not be the ammunition, or it could be a combination of things. IMHO of how to figure out what happened, a detailed inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings will need to be done. After a thorough inspection of everything, most times you can come up with physical evidence of what happened and why. The ammunition should be inspected on both the live rounds, and empty fired shell casings. The live ammunition needs to be examined for many things like bullet weight, bullet shape, bullet set back, crimp, powder type, powder weight, powder consistency, should be pressure tested, internal case dimensions, etc. Fired shell casings also need to be thoroughly inspected for signs of over pressure, weak casings, stressed casings, bad primer pockets, stretched casings, deformed casings, internal dimensions, deformities, etc. A thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle should also be done. The bolt should be measured to make sure it is within proper dimensions, as I have seen similar blow outs where the bolt faces internal circumference was too large and didn't support the casing. The tail of the bolt and internal gas chamber area of the bolt carrier should also be gauged to make sure they are in proper spec dimension, and don't have a large fouling build up that would cause the bolt carrier assembly to unlock too early. Headspace should be gauged for minimum and maximum, as too short or too long you can cause things to blow up. I would also do a chamber cast, as we have seen several blown up rifles that checked correct for proper headspace, but the chamber cast showed that the chamber was offset to the bore, most likely caused by someone using a reamer with no pilot, and in the case with 5 blown up rifles we have seen after the shooters had put several thousands of rounds down each barrel with the only issue being some blown primers, and eventually they blew things up. A chamber cast may also show that the chamber has no free bore, see this quite often. The barrel should be inspected thoroughly inside and out. Put it on a gauging table and run a depth gauge down it, and it may show a slight deformity that cannot always be visually seen where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction, seen several of these. Run a bore camera or borescope down the barrel may might show bad machining of the chamber, free bore, of any type of deformity where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction. A bore scope or camera run down the barrel may also show where a bullet may have had jacket separation which we see occasionally on frangible and plated ammunition. A borescope or camera close up look at the chamber and free bore, may show maintenance issues, where there is a build up of fouling that caused or attributed to the over pressure. We have seen several hundred blown up AR15 / M16 type rifles, and one of the common things we see is a heavy fouling build up at the end of the chamber and free bore area. This build up is kind of like the fouling that is on the tail of the bolt, but it has a a glass like appearance and is very hard, my guess is from people not cleaning or thoroughly cleaning a chamber or possibly not getting the dirty solvent out. I am a big fan of using a chamber brush, and a bore brush, and not a fan of a boresnake or other pull through cleaning systems that don't do a good job of cleaning a chamber. We also see a build up inside the chamber and/or bore when people use solvents that get gummy or varnish things up when it isn't thoroughly removed, hence why I am not a fan of using banana oil based solvents in the AR15 / M16 type rifles. Lube and/or solvent in the chamber and bore and cause pressure issues (usually extraction issues), and in a rare situation can result in damage or firearms blowing up. The gas port should be gauges to see what is is and where it fits into the specs. A barrel should also be checked for straightness, as a bent or warped barrel can cause pressure issues. Other things that should be inspected is the rifle for any signs of the rifle unlocking too early or violently. The receivers should be gauged to check to see if things are in proper spec. Hammer & trigger pin holes can be gauged to show if they are in spec, and will often show signs of the rifle unlocking too quickly or violently. The receivers should also be inspected to make sure they are machined properly, and not off set out out of proper alignment. The buffering system should also be inspected to see if they are within spec, and show any signs of stress or the action cycling too quickly or violently. I have seen rifles that people have built that had no clue what they were doing, and had them unlocking too early and blew them up. I have seen rifles that people suppressed, didn't realize that adding a suppressor can change the timing cycle, and blew them up. I have also see 3 blown up rifles from the same LE Agency, that their in house Armorer (trained by another company) built using piston conversions, that were unlocking too early. And one of the more common causes of blown up guns in the last couple of years that we have seen is when someone puts a 300-Blackout in a 5.56 chamber. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 8:15:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you read on page one, you will see that I posted the following: There are many reasons that a rifle can blow up, a detailed and thorough inspection will need to be done to figure out why. You will see that I haven't concluded or made any statement that the ammunition is or isn't at fault in this particular situation. You will also see that I haven't made any statement as to anything that the shooter did or didn't do to cause the rifle to blow up. What I did was ask a few questions, that the answers might help point into where to look for possible signs of what the cause or causes are. Other posters here have already concluded the ammunition is at fault. To conclude that the ammunition is the exact cause of why this happened, may be premature, as I am not aware of anyone in this thread who stated that the ammunition was at fault saying that they have done a thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings. The cause of the rifle blowing up may be due to the ammunition, and it may not be the ammunition, or it could be a combination of things. IMHO of how to figure out what happened, a detailed inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings will need to be done. After a thorough inspection of everything, most times you can come up with physical evidence of what happened and why. The ammunition should be inspected on both the live rounds, and empty fired shell casings. The live ammunition needs to be examined for many things like bullet weight, bullet shape, bullet set back, crimp, powder type, powder weight, powder consistency, should be pressure tested, internal case dimensions, etc. Fired shell casings also need to be thoroughly inspected for signs of over pressure, weak casings, stressed casings, bad primer pockets, stretched casings, deformed casings, internal dimensions, deformities, etc. A thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle should also be done. The bolt should be measured to make sure it is within proper dimensions, as I have seen similar blow outs where the bolt faces internal circumference was too large and didn't support the casing. The tail of the bolt and internal gas chamber area of the bolt carrier should also be gauged to make sure they are in proper spec dimension, and don't have a large fouling build up that would cause the bolt carrier assembly to unlock too early. Headspace should be gauged for minimum and maximum, as too short or too long you can cause things to blow up. I would also do a chamber cast, as we have seen several blown up rifles that checked correct for proper headspace, but the chamber cast showed that the chamber was offset to the bore, most likely caused by someone using a reamer with no pilot, and in the case with 5 blown up rifles we have seen after the shooters had put several thousands of rounds down each barrel with the only issue being some blown primers, and eventually they blew things up. A chamber cast may also show that the chamber has no free bore, see this quite often. The barrel should be inspected thoroughly inside and out. Put it on a gauging table and run a depth gauge down it, and it may show a slight deformity that cannot always be visually seen where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction, seen several of these. Run a bore camera or borescope down the barrel may might show bad machining of the chamber, free bore, of any type of deformity where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction. A bore scope or camera run down the barrel may also show where a bullet may have had jacket separation which we see occasionally on frangible and plated ammunition. A borescope or camera close up look at the chamber and free bore, may show maintenance issues, where there is a build up of fouling that caused or attributed to the over pressure. We have seen several hundred blown up AR15 / M16 type rifles, and one of the common things we see is a heavy fouling build up at the end of the chamber and free bore area. This build up is kind of like the fouling that is on the tail of the bolt, but it has a a glass like appearance and is very hard, my guess is from people not cleaning or thoroughly cleaning a chamber or possibly not getting the dirty solvent out. I am a big fan of using a chamber brush, and a bore brush, and not a fan of a boresnake or other pull through cleaning systems that don't do a good job of cleaning a chamber. We also see a build up inside the chamber and/or bore when people use solvents that get gummy or varnish things up when it isn't thoroughly removed, hence why I am not a fan of using banana oil based solvents in the AR15 / M16 type rifles. Lube and/or solvent in the chamber and bore and cause pressure issues (usually extraction issues), and in a rare situation can result in damage or firearms blowing up. The gas port should be gauges to see what is is and where it fits into the specs. A barrel should also be checked for straightness, as a bent or warped barrel can cause pressure issues. Other things that should be inspected is the rifle for any signs of the rifle unlocking too early or violently. The receivers should be gauged to check to see if things are in proper spec. Hammer & trigger pin holes can be gauged to show if they are in spec, and will often show signs of the rifle unlocking too quickly or violently. The receivers should also be inspected to make sure they are machined properly, and not off set out out of proper alignment. The buffering system should also be inspected to see if they are within spec, and show any signs of stress or the action cycling too quickly or violently. I have seen rifles that people have built that had no clue what they were doing, and had them unlocking too early and blew them up. I have seen rifles that people suppressed, didn't realize that adding a suppressor can change the timing cycle, and blew them up. I have also see 3 blown up rifles from the same LE Agency, that their in house Armorer (trained by another company) built using piston conversions, that were unlocking too early. And one of the more common causes of blown up guns in the last couple of years that we have seen is when someone puts a 300-Blackout in a 5.56 chamber. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 8:34:49 AM EDT
[#12]
gotta be the ammo
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Posted: 9/20/2018 4:10:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Sounds like someone who is an unbiased third party who knows how to conduct unbiased research to me. Thank you for sharing your method Sully.
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you read on page one, you will see that I posted the following: There are many reasons that a rifle can blow up, a detailed and thorough inspection will need to be done to figure out why. You will see that I haven't concluded or made any statement that the ammunition is or isn't at fault in this particular situation. You will also see that I haven't made any statement as to anything that the shooter did or didn't do to cause the rifle to blow up. What I did was ask a few questions, that the answers might help point into where to look for possible signs of what the cause or causes are. Other posters here have already concluded the ammunition is at fault. To conclude that the ammunition is the exact cause of why this happened, may be premature, as I am not aware of anyone in this thread who stated that the ammunition was at fault saying that they have done a thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings. The cause of the rifle blowing up may be due to the ammunition, and it may not be the ammunition, or it could be a combination of things. IMHO of how to figure out what happened, a detailed inspection of the rifle, ammunition, and empty shell casings will need to be done. After a thorough inspection of everything, most times you can come up with physical evidence of what happened and why. The ammunition should be inspected on both the live rounds, and empty fired shell casings. The live ammunition needs to be examined for many things like bullet weight, bullet shape, bullet set back, crimp, powder type, powder weight, powder consistency, should be pressure tested, internal case dimensions, etc. Fired shell casings also need to be thoroughly inspected for signs of over pressure, weak casings, stressed casings, bad primer pockets, stretched casings, deformed casings, internal dimensions, deformities, etc. A thorough gauging and inspection of the rifle should also be done. The bolt should be measured to make sure it is within proper dimensions, as I have seen similar blow outs where the bolt faces internal circumference was too large and didn't support the casing. The tail of the bolt and internal gas chamber area of the bolt carrier should also be gauged to make sure they are in proper spec dimension, and don't have a large fouling build up that would cause the bolt carrier assembly to unlock too early. Headspace should be gauged for minimum and maximum, as too short or too long you can cause things to blow up. I would also do a chamber cast, as we have seen several blown up rifles that checked correct for proper headspace, but the chamber cast showed that the chamber was offset to the bore, most likely caused by someone using a reamer with no pilot, and in the case with 5 blown up rifles we have seen after the shooters had put several thousands of rounds down each barrel with the only issue being some blown primers, and eventually they blew things up. A chamber cast may also show that the chamber has no free bore, see this quite often. The barrel should be inspected thoroughly inside and out. Put it on a gauging table and run a depth gauge down it, and it may show a slight deformity that cannot always be visually seen where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction, seen several of these. Run a bore camera or borescope down the barrel may might show bad machining of the chamber, free bore, of any type of deformity where a live round was shot behind a squib or other barrel obstruction. A bore scope or camera run down the barrel may also show where a bullet may have had jacket separation which we see occasionally on frangible and plated ammunition. A borescope or camera close up look at the chamber and free bore, may show maintenance issues, where there is a build up of fouling that caused or attributed to the over pressure. We have seen several hundred blown up AR15 / M16 type rifles, and one of the common things we see is a heavy fouling build up at the end of the chamber and free bore area. This build up is kind of like the fouling that is on the tail of the bolt, but it has a a glass like appearance and is very hard, my guess is from people not cleaning or thoroughly cleaning a chamber or possibly not getting the dirty solvent out. I am a big fan of using a chamber brush, and a bore brush, and not a fan of a boresnake or other pull through cleaning systems that don't do a good job of cleaning a chamber. We also see a build up inside the chamber and/or bore when people use solvents that get gummy or varnish things up when it isn't thoroughly removed, hence why I am not a fan of using banana oil based solvents in the AR15 / M16 type rifles. Lube and/or solvent in the chamber and bore and cause pressure issues (usually extraction issues), and in a rare situation can result in damage or firearms blowing up. The gas port should be gauges to see what is is and where it fits into the specs. A barrel should also be checked for straightness, as a bent or warped barrel can cause pressure issues. Other things that should be inspected is the rifle for any signs of the rifle unlocking too early or violently. The receivers should be gauged to check to see if things are in proper spec. Hammer & trigger pin holes can be gauged to show if they are in spec, and will often show signs of the rifle unlocking too quickly or violently. The receivers should also be inspected to make sure they are machined properly, and not off set out out of proper alignment. The buffering system should also be inspected to see if they are within spec, and show any signs of stress or the action cycling too quickly or violently. I have seen rifles that people have built that had no clue what they were doing, and had them unlocking too early and blew them up. I have seen rifles that people suppressed, didn't realize that adding a suppressor can change the timing cycle, and blew them up. I have also see 3 blown up rifles from the same LE Agency, that their in house Armorer (trained by another company) built using piston conversions, that were unlocking too early. And one of the more common causes of blown up guns in the last couple of years that we have seen is when someone puts a 300-Blackout in a 5.56 chamber. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com (763) 712-0123 |
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Posted: 9/22/2018 7:35:36 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like someone who is an unbiased third party who knows how to conduct unbiased research to me. Thank you for sharing your method Sully. |
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Posted: 9/23/2018 12:16:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Only reading this thread form a point of interest and no dog in the fight. I see no bias in Scully's input what so ever. Appears to be very analytical and without tunnel vision. I like it. Based on this thread only, I would likely search out someone like him to troubleshoot. Speaking of, Scully, I have this little issue that ............
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Posted: 9/24/2018 5:19:46 PM EDT
[#16]
OP here. Sent the upper and ammo off to Hornady to be inspected... The wait begins.
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Posted: 9/24/2018 5:28:04 PM EDT
[#17]
I get that Swirl pattern from Blazer brass 115gr 9mm ammunition. Always happens at like 5 yards.
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Posted: 9/25/2018 8:06:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP here. Sent the upper and ammo off to Hornady to be inspected... The wait begins. |
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Posted: 9/27/2018 1:28:16 AM EDT
[#19]
looks like hornady frontier is competing with freedom munitions to cause the most kabooms.
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Posted: 10/7/2018 12:17:46 PM EDT
[#20]
@Victor223
OP what happened to the lower to scrap it. Usually the upper is toast and I don't see any damage to the lower? |
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Posted: 10/7/2018 12:55:55 PM EDT
[#21]
I understand the thinking that excess oil in the bore could jack the pressure up across the line and blow out a case but logic tells me that would be in the first shot or two fired . I believe in this case the OP states the problem shot was something like #10 in the string and the primers were looking ok in the first bunch of shots.
This seems again to indicate faulty ammo to me but I don't claim any special expertise |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 1:06:29 AM EDT
[#22]
I suspect that this failure was caused by bolt bounce.
Here is what I see. 1. Pictures two and three show significant brass galling on the deflector plate. This would indicate that you were dangerously over gassed. I can also see brass on the rear of the receiver ejector port. 2. The bottom of the cartridge exploded. I have seen a lot of cracked cartridges, but never one that exploded like this. Under normal conditions, a locked bolt should be able to contain the force of a hot round. 3. I don't see any damage to the bolt or lugs. Usually with a hot round (or squib round), the lugs would have sheared off. 4. You are firing a carbine length gas system with at least a thousand rounds through it. I suspect that you will find that you have some gas port erosion. If you are cycling your bolt fast and hard, it will come into battery fast and hard. Remember, the buffer is a conservation of momentum device. What can happen is that your bolt carrier can bounce, and decam the bolt out of it's locked position. The firing pin is not spring loaded on the AR, if it has enough inertia a bolt bounce can drive the pin into the primer without a hammer strike. Armolite had to redesign the firing pin to prevent this condition, but it can still occur. I recommend that you have your rifle inspected by a qualified gunsmith. Your bolt should be inspected for damage, and your gas port for erosion. You should have your head space checked as well. A heavier buffer and adjustable gas block can mitigate bolt bounce. Your cartridges should be ejecting at 3 o'clock. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 12:55:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Firing pin cannot strike primer with bolt out of battery
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Posted: 10/25/2018 1:19:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Firing pin cannot strike primer with bolt out of battery |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 2:32:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Try installing your BCC without a cam pin and let me know how that works out. Ok, don't try that unless you want to blow up your weapon. It does happen, especially if you haven't slept in two days and spend all night breathing brake cleaner fumes.
After reading the OP again, I suspect that his cam pin sheared off, which caused the bolt to fail to rotate and lock. Running over gassed will eventually wreck your BCC. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 2:55:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try installing your BCC without a cam pin and let me know how that works out. Ok, don't try that unless you want to blow up your weapon. It does happen, especially if you haven't slept in two days and spend all night breathing brake cleaner fumes. After reading the OP again, I suspect that his cam pin sheared off, which caused the bolt to fail to rotate and lock. Running over gassed will eventually wreck your BCC. The bolt was CLEARLY locked when this event happened. This is classic case failure due to overpressure, and only can happen when locked. The case fails in the weakest supported area - the extractor. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 3:16:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try installing your BCC without a cam pin and let me know how that works out. Ok, don't try that unless you want to blow up your weapon. It does happen, especially if you haven't slept in two days and spend all night breathing brake cleaner fumes. After reading the OP again, I suspect that his cam pin sheared off, which caused the bolt to fail to rotate and lock. Running over gassed will eventually wreck your BCC. I think you need to read a little more, for now. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 5:01:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. I think you need to read a little more, for now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Try installing your BCC without a cam pin and let me know how that works out. Ok, don't try that unless you want to blow up your weapon. It does happen, especially if you haven't slept in two days and spend all night breathing brake cleaner fumes. After reading the OP again, I suspect that his cam pin sheared off, which caused the bolt to fail to rotate and lock. Running over gassed will eventually wreck your BCC. I think you need to read a little more, for now. The BCC may have been fully forward (in battery), but that does not guarantee that the cam pin actually rotated (and locked) the bolt into the barrel lugs. I am speculating here, obviously. But, if a previous shot cracked the bolt cam pin, then this could explain the failure. I could not see much of the bolt head in the pictures. The extractor lug looked worn, but I didn't see any damage to the bolt head. Did I miss something? I do see that the BCC shattered, that would suggest that the bolt retracted with a huge amount of force. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:14:05 PM EDT
[#29]
If the bolt has not rotated and locked, then by definition it is not in battery.
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Posted: 10/25/2018 7:25:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Donky, The BCC may have been fully forward (in battery), but that does not guarantee that the cam pin actually rotated (and locked) the bolt into the barrel lugs. I am speculating here, obviously. But, if a previous shot cracked the bolt cam pin, then this could explain the failure. I could not see much of the bolt head in the pictures. The extractor lug looked worn, but I didn't see any damage to the bolt head. Did I miss something? I do see that the BCC shattered, that would suggest that the bolt retracted with a huge amount of force. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Try installing your BCC without a cam pin and let me know how that works out. Ok, don't try that unless you want to blow up your weapon. It does happen, especially if you haven't slept in two days and spend all night breathing brake cleaner fumes. After reading the OP again, I suspect that his cam pin sheared off, which caused the bolt to fail to rotate and lock. Running over gassed will eventually wreck your BCC. I think you need to read a little more, for now. The BCC may have been fully forward (in battery), but that does not guarantee that the cam pin actually rotated (and locked) the bolt into the barrel lugs. I am speculating here, obviously. But, if a previous shot cracked the bolt cam pin, then this could explain the failure. I could not see much of the bolt head in the pictures. The extractor lug looked worn, but I didn't see any damage to the bolt head. Did I miss something? I do see that the BCC shattered, that would suggest that the bolt retracted with a huge amount of force. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 4:33:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is classic case failure Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is classic case failure due to overpressure, |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 6:43:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes Or a defective case. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is classic case failure due to overpressure, |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 8:42:11 PM EDT
[#33]
I would be somewhat reluctant to give any more information to anyone other than an attorney. If OP details how he cares for his rifle, ammo, or any other information, that might be giving someone who intends to blame him for the blown up rifle some material to use against him.
I would be very cautious about giving out information, and would do far more asking questions than answering them. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 8:56:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Unburnt powder hitting the target at 25yds??? That’s odd!
I would only assume that one never made it out of the barrel, and the next shot kaboomed. |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 10:10:05 AM EDT
[#35]
As a third party...
Either OP pulled the trigger with a squib in the barrel or the ammo was too hot/weak case. Hell, could've been all 3. Sully, you're a wealth of knowledge and I love your input. I don't think you'd find anhthing wrong with OP's rifle. If half this stuff was a serious issue, the military would have KBs by the hundreds every day. Marines don't know what a damn chamber brush is, they have clp pouring into their bores, it's bad. To the guy that doesn't understand sully's mention of bolt head circumference... he means that the diameter of the bolt head, inside, where the case sits, is too large allowing the case to expand too much causing case failure. What's not to understand? The bolt head supports more than just the rim. |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 10:30:29 AM EDT
[#36]
To the guy that doesn't understand sully's mention of bolt head circumference... he means that the diameter of the bolt head, inside, where the case sits, is too large allowing the case to expand too much causing case failure. What's not to understand? The bolt head supports more than just the rim. There is also an unsupported area past the front of the bolt. There is room for the bolt to rotate and an angle cut on the entrance to the chamber. |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 11:44:38 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is what I see. 1. Pictures two and three show significant brass galling on the deflector plate. This would indicate that you were dangerously over gassed. I can also see brass on the rear of the receiver ejector port. 2. The bottom of the cartridge exploded. I have seen a lot of cracked cartridges, but never one that exploded like this. Under normal conditions, a locked bolt should be able to contain the force of a hot round. 3. I don't see any damage to the bolt or lugs. Usually with a hot round (or squib round), the lugs would have sheared off. 4. You are firing a carbine length gas system with at least a thousand rounds through it. I suspect that you will find that you have some gas port erosion. 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 11:48:53 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 12:04:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Hornady is full of shit, which is rather disturbing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? 
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Posted: 10/28/2018 12:13:30 PM EDT
[#40]
+1 for Frontier ammo. It's been giving lots of people problems. I disagree with Hornady's OOB ignition claim. I strongly believe it was overpressure/bad case/both. It's what I thought when I saw the pix and description of things......and it's bolstered by folks here that know WAY more about the AR and this stuff than I.
It is disturbing that Hornady is opening themselves up for major problems by not recalling this stuff. It's one thing to replace a few rifles and recall the ammo. What happens when someone actually gets hurt.....that's going to sting a lot more than dealing with the bad batch.....not just in costs of the lawsuit, but the loss of trust and consequential loss of business. I won't buy freedom anymore because of the problems they've been having....and I used to buy their stuff without worry (a while back). Looks like I won't be buying Hornady loads now either......I like muh eyes. |
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Posted: 10/28/2018 12:18:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alright guys, OP here, a few things: 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is what I see. 1. Pictures two and three show significant brass galling on the deflector plate. This would indicate that you were dangerously over gassed. I can also see brass on the rear of the receiver ejector port. 2. The bottom of the cartridge exploded. I have seen a lot of cracked cartridges, but never one that exploded like this. Under normal conditions, a locked bolt should be able to contain the force of a hot round. 3. I don't see any damage to the bolt or lugs. Usually with a hot round (or squib round), the lugs would have sheared off. 4. You are firing a carbine length gas system with at least a thousand rounds through it. I suspect that you will find that you have some gas port erosion. 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? 
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Posted: 10/28/2018 12:20:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright guys, OP here, a few things: 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? It was the ammo. |
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Posted: 11/5/2018 7:37:27 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alright guys, OP here, a few things: 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is what I see. 1. Pictures two and three show significant brass galling on the deflector plate. This would indicate that you were dangerously over gassed. I can also see brass on the rear of the receiver ejector port. 2. The bottom of the cartridge exploded. I have seen a lot of cracked cartridges, but never one that exploded like this. Under normal conditions, a locked bolt should be able to contain the force of a hot round. 3. I don't see any damage to the bolt or lugs. Usually with a hot round (or squib round), the lugs would have sheared off. 4. You are firing a carbine length gas system with at least a thousand rounds through it. I suspect that you will find that you have some gas port erosion. 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? 
Edited...…..let me just say I am VERY disappointed in Hornady for saying it was an "OOB detonation"...……….
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Posted: 11/5/2018 10:24:32 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright guys, OP here, a few things: 1. This was on a mid-length gas system, and was not over-gassed at all. Cases had always ejected consistently at 4:00, regardless of ammo. 2. It was not a slamfire, as I said I was re-zeroing the weapon so ~5-10 seconds of careful aiming took place between shots. It happened after I pulled the trigger. 3. I see a lot of people saying my cam pin could have sheared off. It did not. After I broke the rifle down, it was one of the things I inspected. Unfortunately no pictures, but it was in relatively decent condition. 4. The only weird thing internally with the bolt was that the front half of the firing pin was bent downward which I'm betting is a result of the KB blowing out the bottom of the bolt, and the firing pin attempting to follow. Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? All of the .223 match ammo I’ve ever shot has been terrible. |
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Posted: 11/5/2018 11:11:52 AM EDT
[#45]
Based upon the information and pictures provided by the original poster, I would go with Occam's razor and say it was the ammo.
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Posted: 12/23/2018 6:34:58 PM EDT
[#46]
I'm sorry to hear that. No idea, but more importantly, glad you are safe and uninjured!
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Posted: 2/12/2019 10:31:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Gonna bump this one...
OP - What did Hornady ultimately determine/do in their effort to resolve your issue? Like many others, I’m disappointed and somewhat insulted by Hornady’s response(s). OOB detonations...every time...really? If that’s their belief, then why the hell are they replacing people’s rifles and taking returns on Frontier ammo? And, before someone says it, I’ll have a hard time buying the, “they’re just going above and beyond” position. |
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Posted: 2/12/2019 11:49:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gonna bump this one... OP - What did Hornady ultimately determine/do in their effort to resolve your issue? Like many others, I’m disappointed and somewhat insulted by Hornady’s response(s). OOB detonations...every time...really? If that’s their belief, then why the hell are they replacing people’s rifles and taking returns on Frontier ammo? And, before someone says it, I’ll have a hard time buying the, “they’re just going above and beyond” position. I'll pay a bit more for ammo I trust. |
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Posted: 2/13/2019 1:17:36 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I won't buy Frontier. I've seem too many online complaints. I'll pay a bit more for ammo I trust. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gonna bump this one... OP - What did Hornady ultimately determine/do in their effort to resolve your issue? Like many others, I’m disappointed and somewhat insulted by Hornady’s response(s). OOB detonations...every time...really? If that’s their belief, then why the hell are they replacing people’s rifles and taking returns on Frontier ammo? And, before someone says it, I’ll have a hard time buying the, “they’re just going above and beyond” position. I'll pay a bit more for ammo I trust. |
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Posted: 2/13/2019 1:43:34 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hornady has been in contact with me, but they are claiming it was an OOB det which frankly I think is bull. Apart from the fact that it's almost mechanically impossible for an AR to fire OOB, my bolt also remained locked forward. If it had been an OOB, it would have violently cycled back into the buffer tube. Am I wrong on this? They have the brass, or pictures of it, correct? |
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