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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:10:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 4:02:12 PM EDT by No_Expert]
Okay,

so I took my daughter out to the range today (pictures pending) and it is a CZ v22 dedicated 22 upper, it's a flattop. I have A2 style front and rear sights on it. and the problem I have is this.

It shoots way low. I ended up having to sink the front sight post all the way down, and turn the rear sight up to 5 to get even close to being on target, but still not on at 25. At first I thought I'd have to file down the front site..but I think it is more serious than that, as there would pretty much be no front sight post. I am thinking the rear sight is simply too low for the front site...so either the front site assembly is too tall (out of spec) or the rail on the upper is too low. I will try to post close up pictures, but can anyone tell me the proper measurements for rear sight aperature from a fixed point that I could measure? Or the front sight base?

I am wondering if I should reset the front site post and get a 1/2" riser to put on the rail to put the rear sight on?




Any help would be appreciated, my daughter was quite frustrated on her first time shooting her new rifle. It's bad enough it was cold, but she was trying real hard and not getting the results she wanted. Even the string I shot at one point was a decent group but 6 inches low. that's after adjusting it up from over a foot low at 25 yards.

No Expert
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:52:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:54:43 PM EDT by caneau]
My first question in this situation would be, what sights does CZ recommend are used for the rifle?

I think your problem isn't the rifle, it's the caliber vs. the sights. AR-15 sights are designed for, well, the AR-15. A 55 grain .223 bullet will travel much faster and therefore drop much lower before reaching the target. A .22 grain bullet is doing about 1150 to 1250 feet per second out of the muzzle vs. somewhere around 3000 fps for a .223. Essentially what's happening is your .22 bullet is dropping off much faster than a .223 bullet and therefore never intersecting with your sight plane. Your best bet would be to call up CZ and see what they say about sighting in the gun. Next stop would probably be a 1/4" or a 1/2" riser.

My better suggestion, unless your daughter is really young, try letting her shoot a real, .223 AR-15. In my experience, girls handle recoil very well, sometimes significantly better than guys. If your daughter is 10 or older, take all the flashlights and "tacticool" stuff off your own AR (the weight will do more harm than any recoil it might dampen), and let her try it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:42:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 7:24:19 AM EDT by Dano523]
Lets make life simple since you're using a 223 high site plain designed for 100 yards plus, at 25 yards.

Either you will need to kick the rear sight way up to get sight plain to look more downward (an option if the rifle is going to be shot at both short and long ranges, but less than ideal since she has a short face and may not get a good check weld)

Or,

Set the front sight post a few clicks down below the top of the base, then sight the rifle in using something to scribe a line on the front sight post the needed height to cut it down to achieve the downward needed sight angle to zero out at short range she will be shooting. Also, since you will have the front post out of the front base to cut it down, turn the front post down (width) so she is not trying to sight the rifle in on a pinhead using a fence post while looking threw a barn door as here reference points. A lathe will produce a better result, but if you take your time, the post chucked up in a drill (lightly on the treads) using a jewelers file will work too.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:41:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By caneau:
My first question in this situation would be, what sights does CZ recommend are used for the rifle?


I hadn't thought about that per se, I guess I can attempt to contact CZ for any recommendations on iron sights.


Originally Posted By caneau:
I think your problem isn't the rifle, it's the caliber vs. the sights. AR-15 sights are designed for, well, the AR-15. A 55 grain .223 bullet will travel much faster and therefore drop much lower before reaching the target. A .22 grain bullet is doing about 1150 to 1250 feet per second out of the muzzle vs. somewhere around 3000 fps for a .223. Essentially what's happening is your .22 bullet is dropping off much faster than a .223 bullet and therefore never intersecting with your sight plane. Your best bet would be to call up CZ and see what they say about sighting in the gun. Next stop would probably be a 1/4" or a 1/2" riser.


Okay, so there is probably a ballistics issue, and he riser may actually be a solutiuon.


Originally Posted By caneau:
My better suggestion, unless your daughter is really young, try letting her shoot a real, .223 AR-15. In my experience, girls handle recoil very well, sometimes significantly better than guys. If your daughter is 10 or older, take all the flashlights and "tacticool" stuff off your own AR (the weight will do more harm than any recoil it might dampen), and let her try it.



She is 12 next week, there is no tactical stuff on either of my ARs, and she has shot them. But the 22 was an option not so much for the recoil as for her to be able to shoot alot, even more than I shoot my Ar, so it became a $$ vs ammo thing as much as her habving her own AR.

Thanks,

No Expert
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:00:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Lets make life simple since you're using a 223 high site plain designed for 100 yards plus, at 25 yards.

Either you will need to kick the rear sight way up to get sight plain to look more downward (an option if the rifle is going to be short at both short and long ranges, but less than ideal since she has a short face and may not get a good check weld)

Or,

Set the front sight post a few clicks down below the top of the base, then sight the rifle in using something to scribe a line on the front sight post the needed height to cut it down to achieve the downward needed sight angle to zero out at short range she will be shooting. Also, since you will have the front post out of the front base to cut it down, turn the front post down (width) so she is not trying to sight the rifle in on a pinhead using a fence post while looking threw a barn door as here reference points. A lathe will produce a better result, but if you take your time, the post chucked up in a drill (lightly on the treads) using a jewelers file will work too.



Well, with the FS post set at base, and the rear sight set at 3, the point of impact is over a foot low at 25 yds. cranking the FS post all the way down does not bring POI up to point of aom. So I think grinding down the front sight is not an option.

Thanks,

No Expert

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:20:35 PM EDT
Start filing that front sight.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:14:48 PM EDT
Yeah, I gotta go with the cut down the front sight post option.

Or, the more stress-free solution, return the upper and get a 10/22 (last time I checked, $160 at Wal-Mart). Have your daughter start customizing it, new barrel, new stock, etc. It's a great way to introduce shooters to exactly how a firearm works without spending a fortune on parts and ammo.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:44:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By caneau:
Yeah, I gotta go with the cut down the front sight post option.

Or, the more stress-free solution, return the upper and get a 10/22 (last time I checked, $160 at Wal-Mart). Have your daughter start customizing it, new barrel, new stock, etc. It's a great way to introduce shooters to exactly how a firearm works without spending a fortune on parts and ammo.



Guess I'll have to take pictures this afternoon. The front site is down as far as it will go, and still shoots low. If I file it down, there will be no front site...just the two ears around a flat spot.

Don't want a 10/22. Already spent $500+ building her a custom AR/22.

I'm gonna take measurements this afternoon with the pictures, there has to be a simple cause for all this.

No Expert
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 2:59:11 PM EDT
Heh, alright. Point taken.

I think if CZ doesn't have a solution, your 1/2" riser idea would probably work the best in this situation. Yankee Hill Machine sells them for around $15, which would probably be cheaper than sending your upper to CZ for repair. YHM Risers
Good luck!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:01:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By caneau:
Heh, alright. Point taken.

I think if CZ doesn't have a solution, your 1/2" riser idea would probably work the best in this situation. Yankee Hill Machine sells them for around $15, which would probably be cheaper than sending your upper to CZ for repair. YHM Risers
Good luck!

]

I didn't get a chance to contact CZ yet...but I found the problem!

The front site IS almost 1/2 too tall! I had a standard A fram FSB from a previous build, and I slide it on the end of the barrel backwards to get the flats close together...and the detachable site is almost 1/2 inch higher at the flat and the ears!

Now, I don't know if the FSB rail block is too tall, or if the detachable sight is too tall, but regardless the combination is too tall. So, I'm gonna go to the local gunsmith tomorrow and get a quote on installing the standsard A frame FSB on the barrel in place of the rail block.

It's a pinned FSB and not set screw otherwise I'd do it myself but I don't have the equipment (or patience) to do a pinned sight and have it be straight.

I'll see if I can post a pic showing the comparison of the two.

In the end, I guess it'll make her rifle look even more "standard".

No Expert
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 7:54:52 PM EDT
Before you start ordering a new solid FSB, might want to check if you need the standard height or the F height base.

Now would be a good time to get CZ on the phone and see if they already have a clip on FSB that is the correct height needed for your rear sight. Got a feeling that just ordering a unit from CZ (if available) is going to be the cheaper option than the solid post and installations.

P.S. Just slapping on a Halo sight has to look real good about now.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:52:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Before you start ordering a new solid FSB, might want to check if you need the standard height or the F height base.

Now would be a good time to get CZ on the phone and see if they already have a clip on FSB that is the correct height needed for your rear sight. Got a feeling that just ordering a unit from CZ (if available) is going to be the cheaper option than the solid post and installations.

P.S. Just slapping on a Halo sight has to look real good about now.



well, I wouldn't be ordering any new FSB, I was gonna have ADCO fix the OEM one in the new position and add a flash suppressor, but since i have a standard front sight I would just use that one. No more money spent except on install. I am not familiar with the difference in the front site height in reference to the "F". I thought there was only one height.

I sent an email to the v22upper.com "info" address, so I'll see what they have to say. But, there is nothing on their site or in the manual concerning a special front sight.

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:28:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 1:30:36 PM EDT by Dano523]
The standard FSB should work, and you can either install a longer post or shorten the one on it if needed to get the correct height.

As for installing the FSB to the barrel, have flats added to the rifle barrel, and then tap the taper pin holes in the FSB for setscrews. This will allow you to adjust the front sight cant/index to get a dead center rear sight for the zero instead of having to re-index the entire barrel on the upper to pull it off.

Top barrel shows the flats for the setscrew type adjustable front sight tower.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:14:04 PM EDT
Or.....you could just get a float tube with a flip up front sight and a gas block underneath, or better yet, a clamp-on front sight base. Much cheaper and easier than machining your barrel.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:53:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By caneau:
Or.....you could just get a float tube with a flip up front sight and a gas block underneath, or better yet, a clamp-on front sight base. Much cheaper and easier than machining your barrel.



Well, buying any more parts/equipment would be spending more money...vs using parts I already have. And I am not setup for doing any machining work myself. So, I got a local gunsmith who'll install the standard A-frame FSB on the barrel in place of the rail block for $65. I'm probably gonna have to sell off some extra parts in the EE soon. That'll at least make back some of the cost.

At some point I'm gonna have to figure ouot if the removable front sight is too tall or if the rail block is too tall, but ion the meantime I'll at least be able to get her shooting again.

No Expert
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