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Link Posted: 1/7/2021 5:08:09 PM EDT
[#1]
That's .009" of crush-up the M240 provides with a maximum case/minimum chamber.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 9:18:19 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
That's .009" of crush-up the M240 provides with a maximum case/minimum chamber.
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Huh...

So it is.  My mistake.
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 11:00:19 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:


NO-GO does NOT measure safety.  NO-GO measures the maximum chamber size that a NEW chamber should be.  If a NEW bolt and barrel close on a NO-GO gauge - something is out of spec.  However, some 5.56 NATO chambered barrels will still close on a SAAMI NO-GO gauge.... they are simply being chambered longer than they really need to be.

A FIELD gauge measures the maximum chamber dimension considered to be serviceable.  It is not necessarily a safety issue, it simply means the chamber size has worn beyond what is considered serviceable and should be replaced.  

When barrels and bolts are NEW, the chamber dimension should be somewhere between a GO and a NO-GO gauge to be considered within specification.  When a chamber can lock on a FIELD, it simply means it is worn beyond its service life, and should be replaced.

This is not a "safety" issue really, as the M249 shoots the same ammunition, and will SWALLOW a FIELD gauge when brand new, by design.  When your chamber is longer than a FIELD gauge, you do increase the chance of a case head separation, however, because the long chamber allows for the brass to stretch much, much more.  The problem with a barrel that will close on a FIELD gauge, is you have no idea how long the chamber is.

The reality is, most people should not bother with headspace gauges on an AR-15.  It is largely a waste of time, as there is nothing you can really do about it as the headspace is set by the barrel manufacturer.  If swapping bolts solves your problem, you never really had one, as you were right on the edge of the GO or NO-GO measurement.  Either of which are fine.  Buy reputable parts from reputable manufacturers, and go shooting.
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Fail, no reputable gunsmith would re barrel an AR-15 without using gauges...........The Army depot repair manual says it all..........failure to check headspace could result in injury or death.........bad advice my friend..........
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 11:09:24 PM EDT
[#4]
failure to check headspace could result in injury or death
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Oh, please......
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 11:40:52 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:

Fail, no reputable gunsmith would re barrel an AR-15 without using gauges...........The Army depot repair manual says it all..........failure to check headspace could result in injury or death.........bad advice my friend..........
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Quoted:
Quoted:


NO-GO does NOT measure safety.  NO-GO measures the maximum chamber size that a NEW chamber should be.  If a NEW bolt and barrel close on a NO-GO gauge - something is out of spec.  However, some 5.56 NATO chambered barrels will still close on a SAAMI NO-GO gauge.... they are simply being chambered longer than they really need to be.

A FIELD gauge measures the maximum chamber dimension considered to be serviceable.  It is not necessarily a safety issue, it simply means the chamber size has worn beyond what is considered serviceable and should be replaced.  

When barrels and bolts are NEW, the chamber dimension should be somewhere between a GO and a NO-GO gauge to be considered within specification.  When a chamber can lock on a FIELD, it simply means it is worn beyond its service life, and should be replaced.

This is not a "safety" issue really, as the M249 shoots the same ammunition, and will SWALLOW a FIELD gauge when brand new, by design.  When your chamber is longer than a FIELD gauge, you do increase the chance of a case head separation, however, because the long chamber allows for the brass to stretch much, much more.  The problem with a barrel that will close on a FIELD gauge, is you have no idea how long the chamber is.

The reality is, most people should not bother with headspace gauges on an AR-15.  It is largely a waste of time, as there is nothing you can really do about it as the headspace is set by the barrel manufacturer.  If swapping bolts solves your problem, you never really had one, as you were right on the edge of the GO or NO-GO measurement.  Either of which are fine.  Buy reputable parts from reputable manufacturers, and go shooting.

Fail, no reputable gunsmith would re barrel an AR-15 without using gauges...........The Army depot repair manual says it all..........failure to check headspace could result in injury or death.........bad advice my friend..........


LOL
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 9:04:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Injury and Dealth?  And I suppose you don't think a lawyer had a hand in writing that statement?  I'd wager lawyers had just as much input in the writing of the Manual as did actual armorers because they knew too many people in the civilian population would take that manual as gospel from God so they had to include every CYA statement they could think of.  I'd not be a bit surprised if it says somewhere that according to Proposition 65, this product has been known to cause cancer in the state of CA.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 12:42:10 PM EDT
[#7]
I'd not be a bit surprised if it says somewhere that according to Proposition 65, this product has been known to cause cancer in the state of CA.
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Wouldn't doubt it one bit
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 1:47:55 PM EDT
[#8]
There is no skillset, knowledge or test required to call yourself a "armorer" or "gunsmith". In many states, it's harder to be a barber or cable tv installer than it is to be a gunsmith. The same applies when it comes to being an FFL holder. You can get a FFL 07 and never have even fired a rifle.
If I contracted a build from a FFL07, I would certainly expect them to check things like headspace. What someone does in their basement build is up to them. It's probably more important to know what the actual risks are from excessive headspace. I think the risk of injury or death in a 5.56 build are incredibly low. Damage to the bolt, firing pin and chamber, sure, but can the same be said about other calibers or chamberings, like a 458 SOCOM? At some point could you blow out the rear of a receiver extension if you fired a 458 SOCOM that had excessive headspace and broken, sheared or missing bolt lugs? It would be interesting to see if someone did any tests on intentionally excessive headspace trying to get a kaboom in various calibers.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 2:42:03 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
There is no skillset, knowledge or test required to call yourself a "armorer" or "gunsmith". In many states, it's harder to be a barber or cable tv installer than it is to be a gunsmith. The same applies when it comes to being an FFL holder. You can get a FFL 07 and never have even fired a rifle.
If I contracted a build from a FFL07, I would certainly expect them to check things like headspace. What someone does in their basement build is up to them. It's probably more important to know what the actual risks are from excessive headspace. I think the risk of injury or death in a 5.56 build are incredibly low. Damage to the bolt, firing pin and chamber, sure, but can the same be said about other calibers or chamberings, like a 458 SOCOM? At some point could you blow out the rear of a receiver extension if you fired a 458 SOCOM that had excessive headspace and broken, sheared or missing bolt lugs? It would be interesting to see if someone did any tests on intentionally excessive headspace trying to get a kaboom in various calibers.
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Very true.

But a few posts back, if it's between a no-go and field, it's still safe to use. Bottom line is, gotta verify.

I also not sure why doing a HS check is such a big deal? Low cost tool(s) to verify something that is very important, even if 95+ % of the bolt-chamber combo's are good.

There's also the rare scenario where both bolt and chamber are bad, yet you get a "go" test result.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 3:30:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Damage to the bolt, firing pin and chamber, sure, but can the same be said about other calibers or chamberings, like a 458 SOCOM? At some point could you blow out the rear of a receiver extension if you fired a 458 SOCOM that had excessive headspace and broken, sheared or missing bolt lugs?
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The worst that can happen is a case separation, leaving the body in the chamber which will disable the gun until removed.  More likely bulged or split cases that may make them unusable for reloading.  If you fire a cartridge in an oversized chamber, velocity will be reduced slightly as the case expands to fill the chamber prior to the projectile moving.  The gun will not blow up, the bolt will not be damaged, the firing pin will be fine.  People so overstate the possibilities regarding excessive headspace.

It would be interesting to see if someone did any tests on intentionally excessive headspace trying to get a kaboom in various calibers.
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Ever seen a 30-30 AI and the parent 30-30 case side by side, or the 22 Hornet and K Hornet?  The AI is formed by shooting the factory 30-30 in the improved chamber.  This is done in firearms rated for far less than the AR-15 and nothing "kabooms".



It is really a non-issue in most cases.

Link Posted: 1/11/2021 3:33:53 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Fail, no reputable gunsmith would re barrel an AR-15 without using gauges...........The Army depot repair manual says it all..........failure to check headspace could result in injury or death.........bad advice my friend..........
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Quoted:
Quoted:


NO-GO does NOT measure safety.  NO-GO measures the maximum chamber size that a NEW chamber should be.  If a NEW bolt and barrel close on a NO-GO gauge - something is out of spec.  However, some 5.56 NATO chambered barrels will still close on a SAAMI NO-GO gauge.... they are simply being chambered longer than they really need to be.

A FIELD gauge measures the maximum chamber dimension considered to be serviceable.  It is not necessarily a safety issue, it simply means the chamber size has worn beyond what is considered serviceable and should be replaced.  

When barrels and bolts are NEW, the chamber dimension should be somewhere between a GO and a NO-GO gauge to be considered within specification.  When a chamber can lock on a FIELD, it simply means it is worn beyond its service life, and should be replaced.

This is not a "safety" issue really, as the M249 shoots the same ammunition, and will SWALLOW a FIELD gauge when brand new, by design.  When your chamber is longer than a FIELD gauge, you do increase the chance of a case head separation, however, because the long chamber allows for the brass to stretch much, much more.  The problem with a barrel that will close on a FIELD gauge, is you have no idea how long the chamber is.

The reality is, most people should not bother with headspace gauges on an AR-15.  It is largely a waste of time, as there is nothing you can really do about it as the headspace is set by the barrel manufacturer.  If swapping bolts solves your problem, you never really had one, as you were right on the edge of the GO or NO-GO measurement.  Either of which are fine.  Buy reputable parts from reputable manufacturers, and go shooting.

Fail, no reputable gunsmith would re barrel an AR-15 without using gauges...........The Army depot repair manual says it all..........failure to check headspace could result in injury or death.........bad advice my friend..........


Having the gun not work because of a case separation due to excessive headspace is certainly a safety issue, if you are using it for what it was intended for.

To say that limiting the strain on a fragile portion of a 58,000psi pressure vessel isn't a safety issue is kind of dumb.  I agree with you completely.  These dimensional specifications predate America's sue-happy culture by 100 years, or so.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 5:12:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Here is an article on the basics of headspace for those interested.
https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/headspace-why-it-s-important-how-to-check-it/detail.htm?lid=17125
I would guess that those who would know the most about damage or injury cause by excessive headspace (manufacturers, .mil, etc.) would be the least likely to publicly reveal it. I also imagine that there is a reason why "field" and "max" gauges are used other than to inconvenience someone. But to state that excessive headspace has or can cause no damage or injury is a stretch. You build it and you shoot it - who cares. I build it so my son, daughter and grandchildren can shoot it, and I also check my tire pressure.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:35:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Keep in mind also that for weapons with barrels that are fixed at the extreme rear, the chamber headspace dimension will grow as the barrel heats up, so just because everything is running like a sewing machine when you are at the range popping off 1 round a minute doesn't mean that it wont crap out on you during mag dumps.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:24:35 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
Keep in mind also that for weapons with barrels that are fixed at the extreme rear, the chamber headspace dimension will grow as the barrel heats up, so just because everything is running like a sewing machine when you are at the range popping off 1 round a minute doesn't mean that it wont crap out on you during mag dumps.
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Thus being in-between no-go & field could be an issue after it gets hot.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:27:11 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


Thus being in-between no-go & field could be an issue after it gets hot.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Keep in mind also that for weapons with barrels that are fixed at the extreme rear, the chamber headspace dimension will grow as the barrel heats up, so just because everything is running like a sewing machine when you are at the range popping off 1 round a minute doesn't mean that it wont crap out on you during mag dumps.


Thus being in-between no-go & field could be an issue after it gets hot.


Not really.  The FIELD gauge still has margin of safety by design.  Whatever growth you get because of thermal expansion will be negligible if your cold chamber will not lock on a field gauge.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:31:49 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Thus being in-between no-go & fixeld could be an issue after it gets hot.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Keep in mind also that for weapons with barrels that are fixed at the extreme rear, the chamber headspace dimension will grow as the barrel heats up, so just because everything is running like a sewing machine when you are at the range popping off 1 round a minute doesn't mean that it wont crap out on you during mag dumps.


Thus being in-between no-go & fixeld could be an issue after it gets hot.


I'm not sure.  I would prefer that it didn't close on a no go gage.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 12:04:25 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
Injury and Dealth?  And I suppose you don't think a lawyer had a hand in writing that statement?  I'd wager lawyers had just as much input in the writing of the Manual as did actual armorers because they knew too many people in the civilian population would take that manual as gospel from God so they had to include every CYA statement they could think of.  I'd not be a bit surprised if it says somewhere that according to Proposition 65, this product has been known to cause cancer in the state of CA.
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Like I said no reputable gunsmith ...military or civilian would rebarrel an An AR15  WITHOUT checking headspace..........obviously you are neither...........lol

Link Posted: 1/12/2021 12:50:11 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


Like I said no reputable gunsmith ...military or civilian would rebarrel an An AR15  WITHOUT checking headspace..........obviously you are neither...........lol

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Quoted:
Quoted:
Injury and Dealth?  And I suppose you don't think a lawyer had a hand in writing that statement?  I'd wager lawyers had just as much input in the writing of the Manual as did actual armorers because they knew too many people in the civilian population would take that manual as gospel from God so they had to include every CYA statement they could think of.  I'd not be a bit surprised if it says somewhere that according to Proposition 65, this product has been known to cause cancer in the state of CA.


Like I said no reputable gunsmith ...military or civilian would rebarrel an An AR15  WITHOUT checking headspace..........obviously you are neither...........lol


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 9:34:50 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:


I'm not sure.  I would prefer that it didn't close on a no go gage.
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SAAMI spec says it's still a "go" between no-go and field. Not ideal, but still safe.
For serviceable lifespan you want to be between go and no-go.

Link Posted: 1/12/2021 11:47:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Having the gun not work because of a case separation due to excessive headspace is certainly a safety issue, if you are using it for what it was intended for.
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This would be extremely rare and usually the result of using reloads with heat cycles on the brass.  Highly unlikely with factory ammo.  Also a simple inspection of a fired case compared to a loaded one would indicate any inconsistencies.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 12:14:23 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:


This would be extremely rare and usually the result of using reloads with heat cycles on the brass.  Highly unlikely with factory ammo.  Also a simple inspection of a fired case compared to a loaded one would indicate any inconsistencies.
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Quoted:
Having the gun not work because of a case separation due to excessive headspace is certainly a safety issue, if you are using it for what it was intended for.


This would be extremely rare and usually the result of using reloads with heat cycles on the brass.  Highly unlikely with factory ammo.  Also a simple inspection of a fired case compared to a loaded one would indicate any inconsistencies.


Having the gun sieze up due to a case separation is certainly a safety issue if you are in a fight, and would likely be fatal.  I don't why you are treating that like it's no big deal.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:


Having the gun sieze up due to a case separation is certainly a safety issue if you are in a fight, and would likely be fatal.  I don't why you are treating that like it's no big deal.
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I never said it wasn't a big deal.  A case head separation is rare, powerball lottery rare, and if your chamber is that far out of spec you are more likely to have other issues draw your attention such as misfires due to light primer strikes from the case seating too deeply.  What I take exception to is people surmising that something will "kaboom" from excessive headspace and that is just not the case.  Just look at the above picture, talk about excessive headspace.  There are countless Ackley Improved as well as wildcat cartridges that are formed by firing the smaller parent case in the larger chamber and nothing ever "kabooms".  I know guys who fire factory 223 in their 6mmTCU chambers to make brass.  

The one thing that can cause a "kaboom" is insufficient leade and that is one thing that never gets checked.  There are no gauges for that, but it is easily checked and I do it with every one of my guns.  I do monitor headspace as well, but I don't use gauges.  If you have excessive headspace so extreme that it could cause a problem, your fired cases will indicate it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 3:30:17 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
 If you have excessive headspace so extreme that it could cause a problem, your fired cases will indicate it.
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So firing off rounds w/o using gauges to see if the cases indicate an issue, is a better option than using gauges before firing a round? I understand the technical aspects of both, but your logic is not adding up for me.

Why is gauging the bolt-barrel set such a voodoo thing to do when it's a DIY contraption of sorts?
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 3:36:19 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


So firing off rounds w/o using gauges to see if the cases indicate an issue, is a better option than using gauges before firing a round? I understand the technical aspects of both, but your logic is not adding up for me.

Why is gauging the bolt-barrel set such a voodoo thing to do when it's a DIY contraption of sorts?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
 If you have excessive headspace so extreme that it could cause a problem, your fired cases will indicate it.


So firing off rounds w/o using gauges to see if the cases indicate an issue, is a better option than using gauges before firing a round? I understand the technical aspects of both, but your logic is not adding up for me.

Why is gauging the bolt-barrel set such a voodoo thing to do when it's a DIY contraption of sorts?


That is a straw man argument.  Nobody is saying it's voodoo.  It is simply not MANDATORY because DIY or not is irrelevant.  The headspace is set by the barrel manufacturer.  The fact is that finding a barrel that is out of spec is incredibly rare, and even if you do - any safety issue is overstated.  If you want to check your headspace, by all means.  I have the full gunsmith set of gauges from Forster and check mine when I think about it... but not on every build with a barrel from a reputable manufacturer.

Please show all the injuries and deaths from the tens of thousands of people building their own AR's daily here.  This opinion is founded in evidence.  It's ok that you have a different opinion.  But making up straw men arguments that only exist in your head is not helpful.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 4:16:51 PM EDT
[#25]
The Faxon words seem to suggest "measure it".
https://faxonfirearms.com/blog/what-is-headspace-why-is-it-important-and-how-does-one-check-it-in-a-modern-sporting-rifle/

HS is also not just a barrel thing. The bolt is needed, so I see it as a set test, not a barrel test.
Faxon says the same as I had mentioned, between no-go and field is still usable, but prefer between go and no-go.

I won't regurgitate the Faxon words, but it's a good read.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 5:08:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Getting ready to change into someone more comfortable. Name changes coming.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 5:12:50 PM EDT
[#27]
A case head separation is considerably more violent in a 5.56 than a .458 SOCOM.  A case head separation at 55000 psi is considerably more exciting  than a case head separation at 36000 psi, 458S.  A bolt is no more likely to shed lugs and break on a .458S than it is a 5.56, probably less so.

The most dangerous thing I have seen from a case head separation in a .458 S was when Marty had one during a demo (case had the shoulder set back too far during reloading), the bolt locked back (last round in mag) and the case head was stuck in the bolt face.  Marty reached in with his finger to flip out the case head and the bolt released.  The razor shop case wall removed the tip of Marty’s index finger.  I know that hurt about as bad as anything.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 7:08:23 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


So firing off rounds w/o using gauges to see if the cases indicate an issue, is a better option than using gauges before firing a round? I understand the technical aspects of both, but your logic is not adding up for me.

Why is gauging the bolt-barrel set such a voodoo thing to do when it's a DIY contraption of sorts?
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WTF did you get that idea.  I never said it was a bad idea to check headspace.  It can be done without gauges with a FL sized case and some tape, which is my way.  My point in all this is that excessive headspace is not going to blow up your frigging gun.  That is all.  Jeez
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 10:08:17 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:


WTF did you get that idea.  I never said it was a bad idea to check headspace.  It can be done without gauges with a FL sized case and some tape, which is my way.  My point in all this is that excessive headspace is not going to blow up your frigging gun.  That is all.  Jeez
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I then perhaps misunderstood your comment. It's all good. Cheers.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 10:12:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Hmmm, this site is now wrapping links?

https://www.avantlink.com/click.php?tt=cl&mi=10048&pw=234121&ctc=529559&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaxonfirearms.com%2Fblog%2Fwhat-is-headspace-why-is-it-important-and-how-does-one-check-it-in-a-modern-sporting-rifle%2F

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