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Posted: 1/24/2006 4:14:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 12:07:51 PM EDT by Daubs]
I'm looking at building up a SS 24" Bull barreled AR for a friend and I need some opinions. Here is what I'm looking at:

Stag lower receiver ($89)
M4 Stock (wants adj. or shorter A1 {cavlary arms} stock) (M4 $65) {Cav A1 $58.50}
A2 Stock ($55)
CMT upper receiver ($94)
Alum Float tube or Hogue (Alum $39) (Hogue $100 w/tube&grip)
Stag Bolt carrier group w/ charging handle ($125)
RRA lower parts kit with a RRA 2 stage trigger ($139)

As for the Barrel this is where it gets tricky. He wanted a SS Bull, Fluted, and Threaded.

The cheapest route would be a Kit from Model 1 Sales $595 for the whole thing minus the lower. I'm not too sure who makes their barrels and the quality of thier kits?

Sherluk.com has a Fluted 24" SS for $274 not sure who makes it Willson/Shaw and for $350 I could get it fluted and ported.

Gunsmokeinc has 24" Wilson fluted Hbar for $274 (yes I've heard about their bad customer service)

Another route is ADCO who has a complete 24" Bull RRA upper for $540. Fluting would be +$120 and threading would be +$65 it would have the Wylde chamber which would be good.

Would 5.56 or a .223 chamber be better for a 300-400yd varmit rig? I really like the either-or-ammo usage of the Wylde chamber.

I'm not sure he would want a Comp for the end of the barrel, 223 doesn't have that much kick. My Armalite 3 hole comp was loud as hell that's why its no longer on my rifle. But a flash hider maybe a good idea as he's thinking about a night vision scope may be a Vortex or a Phantom.

So let me know that you think.



Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:23:54 PM EDT
<<<---Go with ADCO.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:10:37 PM EDT
a collapsible stock would make it really front heavy. with a 24" bull a normal stock with lead will balance it better. if a collapsible is necessary, a 20" might be a better choice.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:09:22 AM EDT
The M1S barrels are made by shaw. I've got one of their 20" fluted stainless bull barrels, no problems so far.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:30:01 AM EDT
Thanks for the input.

Has anyone used a J&T kit? Their web site it down and I can't get their PDF catalog to download so I don't know if their prices are close to M1S.

I've also heard some info that Model 1's upper receivers look like they were spray painted, very bad finish, any truth to this?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:35:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Daubs:
Thanks for the input.

Has anyone used a J&T kit? Their web site it down and I can't get their PDF catalog to download so I don't know if their prices are close to M1S.

I've also heard some info that Model 1's upper receivers look like they were spray painted, very bad finish, any truth to this?

Thanks.




cost is a bit more but so is quality.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:40:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By infsqdldr:
a collapsible stock would make it really front heavy. with a 24" bull a normal stock with lead will balance it better. if a collapsible is necessary, a 20" might be a better choice.



If he's going to be using night vision, you might want ot check out the Magpul PRS stock.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:50:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 6:00:36 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By Daubs:
Thanks for the input.

Has anyone used a J&T kit? Their web site it down and I can't get their PDF catalog to download so I don't know if their prices are close to M1S.

I've also heard some info that Model 1's upper receivers look like they were spray painted, very bad finish, any truth to this?

Thanks.



I have one of their 16 inch fluted stainless bull barrel uppers and one of their 24 inch stainless bull barrel uppers. I don't recall exactly what they cost, but I don't think the complete kits were much more than the Model 1 kits (if they were any more). I think fluting was about a $50 option, but I could be wrong about the price. I don't remember threading being one of the standard options, but I got mine during the ban when that was verboten. I think they were Shaw barrels.

Everything I've gotten from J&T has been very good quality.


ETA: Assuming the page is still valid, you can get the complete (less stripped lower) 24 inch fluted bull barrel kit from J&T for $585


ETA: I'd skip the porting (although it is a no extra cost option on the J&T kit). Even with the short 16 inch fluted bull barrel, recoil is not an issue. Better to send the noise downrange. Also, the flash might be annoying if he's going to be using night vision.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:59:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2006 6:01:36 AM EDT by edpmedic]


This is a DPMS bull barrel I got from Midway. Then I got the float tube and stock from DPMS. It is a DPMS side charge upper from DPMS I bought without a bolt from the EE on the AR site. Had a bolt done by DPMS for it and the Handle is from Royal Arms.

This is a old picture but I now have a Harris Bi-pod on it and I put a Lupy VIII 4.5-16x50 with M4 turrets o it now. Anyway the Bull Barrel from DPMS is a 1x8twist and very nice. I am thinking of a Badger stabilizer Tube and the MagPul stock talked about in above thread for it.

It shoots 1/2MOA at 100 yds all day.

For Got it has a Tromix I put together with a Bushmaster NM trigger. I also have to put a charge handle in the rear or plug it. The gasses that come out will make your eye tear
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:01:56 AM EDT
I originally thought "Help with 24" Bull Barrel Build" meant carrying it -- its gonna be heavy!

"DPMS Barrel AR-15 223 Remington Bull Barrel 1 in 8" Twist 24" Fluted Stainless Steel without Front Sight, Manufacturer #: BULL-03-24-8-FSS" retails at MidwayUSA for $350, but dealer price is significantly less.

Unflutted is $227, flutted 1-9 twist is $308, but again, dealer price is significantly less.

It may be very worth it to you to find someone local that gets dealer pricing from Midway and have them order you one. (as in over $100 "worth it")

I really like my DPMS 16" bull, but I have not seen many BB's (and no DPMS BB's) that are threaded. IMO low flash ammo out of a 24" barrel will do nicely without the added noise and expense of a flash hider for thoroughly burned powder.
As for recoil on a 24" BB from a .223? That barrel, even fluted, is going to weigh more than an entire M4 carbine.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 11:31:53 AM EDT
Thanks for the replys.

What is everyones thought on a trigger group for this type of gun? I'm leaning towards the RRA 2 stage because I can get it included in a LPK from eaglefirearms for a good price.

I know a Chip McCormick 1 or 2 stage would probably be the best. But one they are expensive ($159) and two Denny's guns doesn't have a single one in.

I'm trying to beat the $1060+tax price tage of a complete DPMS factory rifle. The build has to be at least as accurate or more accurate than the DPMS rifle that's why I'm not too sure about the J&T and M1S kits.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 1:01:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Daubs:
Thanks for the replys.

What is everyones thought on a trigger group for this type of gun? I'm leaning towards the RRA 2 stage because I can get it included in a LPK from eaglefirearms for a good price.

I know a Chip McCormick 1 or 2 stage would probably be the best. But one they are expensive ($159) and two Denny's guns doesn't have a single one in.

I'm trying to beat the $1060+tax price tage of a complete DPMS factory rifle. The build has to be at least as accurate or more accurate than the DPMS rifle that's why I'm not too sure about the J&T and M1S kits.




I don't have any experience with M1S kits, but I can say that you don't have anything to worry about with the J&T.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 1:23:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Daubs:

I'm trying to beat the $1060+tax price tage of a complete DPMS factory rifle. The build has to be at least as accurate or more accurate than the DPMS rifle that's why I'm not too sure about the J&T and M1S kits.




Dealer cost of the parts will run about $670 (rough ballpark) plus shipping for all but the stripped lower. That is using all DPMS parts except a RRA 2-stage trigger, including the 24" fluted BB, above.
You can even do a Lo-Pro or Hi-Rise upper instead of the A3 style for the same money +/- $20.

Offer a friend with dealer pricing from Midway some extra bucks to order them for you and you're set.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:56:41 PM EDT
Maybe these will help, one is a M1S upper on a bushmaster lower, very good match, shiny areas are oil. The other pic is a M1S stainless 20" fluted bull barrel and a 16" stainless M1S heavy barrel. IMO the bull barrels might be a bit much, I think most people can shoot just as well with the heavy barrel, but thats just my opinion.


As usual, my photography skills suck.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:00:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 11:30:46 AM EDT by Daubs]
otto_esq: Anyone who is a dealer in my neck of the woods is exactly that. They will charge up the A$$ and never cut a deal. Plus i don't have a personal friend who would have a dealer account from Midway so that is out.

MyakkaVice: Thanks for the picturers! It looks like M1S has a much better finish than what I have heard.

If I go with J&T or M1S I'm guessing that the Shaw BBL with a 223 chamber would be better than the 5.56 for accuracy? The Wylde chamber of the RRA Wilson barrel seems like it would be the best as 5.56 and 223 can be interchanged without trouble. I'm not quite sure what air gauging on the Wilson BBL is, can somone give me the low down on this?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:58:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Daubs:
otto_esq: Anyone who is a dealer in my neck of the woods is exactly that. They will charge up the A$$ and never cut a deal. Plus i don't have a personal friend who would have a dealer account from Midway so that it out.



Daubs, see my email about your "C&R" buddies. Dealer accounts are a lot more acquirable than most people think. You could be doing them a favor and saving everyone a lot of money with that info. Just a thought.

Best of luck with the build. Handing a buddy a rifle that you build and having his other buddies drool over it, especially for the cost, is a lot of fun.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 12:06:08 PM EDT
Thanks Otto!

The guy I'm building this rifle for had a chance to soulder my rilfe with an A2 stock and it seems to fit him so the Calvery Arms stock & M4 is out.

Here is what I've come up with thus far:

ADCO:
RRA Bull complete upper
RRA LPK w/ 2stage RRA trigger
RRA Lower
A2 Stock
=$855+tax

J&T Kit + Stag lower from title II= $635+ FFL transfer
Add 2 stage RRA from legal transfers=723

If I part it out it comes out cheaper than ADCO. The shipping costs from different suppliers will probably kill the savings.

ADCO RRA barrel, A2 Stock, gas tube, Dennys A3 CMT upper receiver, Eaglefirearms RRA LPK w/ 2 satge, Bolt carrier group + charging handle, Sherluk Float tube, Title II Stag lower=$804
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