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Posted: 12/30/2005 11:31:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 12:22:06 PM EDT by Gunfighter-06]
I’ve been interested in building my own lower, simply because I want a lower with no trademarks, just my own logo, model and serial number. I had planned on purchasing an 80% forging, but I have never in my life machined something and I’m not real confident in being able to do the job correctly. A friend of mine suggested I purchase a dummy or demo receiver and just remove the trigger block.

I have two questions: First, is this even legal? Second, can it be done as simply as he suggested? Thanks in advance!

*Edit* Just thought I would add, when I said a dummy, I was referring to ones similiar to the ones sold by Tannery.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:25:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:30:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 1:31:04 PM EDT by COLT6721A3]
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:36:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 2:39:12 PM EDT by BallisticTip]
These guys will help you out, gun questions just give them a call.

IBTL.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:27:47 PM EDT
I'd get smarter friends
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:36:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunfighter-06:
I’ve been interested in building my own lower, simply because I want a lower with no trademarks, just my own logo, model and serial number. I had planned on purchasing an 80% forging, but I have never in my life machined something and I’m not real confident in being able to do the job correctly. A friend of mine suggested I purchase a dummy or demo receiver and just remove the trigger block.

I have two questions: First, is this even legal? Second, can it be done as simply as he suggested? Thanks in advance!

*Edit* Just thought I would add, when I said a dummy, I was referring to ones similiar to the ones sold by Tannery.



I don't think it is that easy. I am not sure that even if you could remove the hammer block from one of those dummy receivers that a standard LPK would install correctly and that it would work properly. I am also not sure it would be safe. Do they make those out of the same grade of aluminum as a real receiver? They wouldn't have to... and if they don't it could fail under the stress of real firing.

If you want to build one with no logo, I think you should bite the bullet and do it right. Buy the jigs and tools you need, its mostly just drilling and tapping.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:36:56 PM EDT
Dummy receivers are only to be used with dummy rounds and only 'shot' by dummies. You have to make the 'bang', 'bang' noise yourself.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:53:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:20:07 PM EDT
Your first post and its this.....


Get new friends.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:30:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BallisticTip:
These guys will help you out, gun questions just give them a call.

IBTL.


I don't think it would be illegal on his part.......................but, if it could be done that easly (I doubt it) and he proved it, then I think the guy who made and sold the "dummy" receiver would possably face charges of manufacturing/selling a firearm without whatever license he needed.

80%ers are (supposedly) proven to need so much work (X= hours to complete, or distance from being 100%) to make them function.

I've wundered myself what is done to make the dummy receiver not funcional?

I just go ahead and do 80%ers though, so I thought about it for maybe 1/100 of a second.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:34:09 PM EDT
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.



Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:06:17 AM EDT
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to help. I appreciate the effort. For those who decided to leave "other" comments, I was surprised to see those considering the type of members on this board, but I guess as with any board, I should expect to find a few children out there. I work closely with the ATF and have discussed this issue with several of them and they couldn’t answer my questions because all of the laws we found pertain to modifying a pre-existing weapon, which a dummy is not. Anything else would simply be a homemade firearm, which is not illegal. That said, I still wanted to poll the members here because there seem to be some very knowledgeable folks out there.

Second, I apologize for not introducing myself first. I didn’t see a member’s introduction section. I’m a federal law enforcement agent currently stationed in NC. I’ve done CI/CT operations, counter-narcotics operations and a lot of protective services operations. I’ve conducted multiple operations in the Middle East and elsewhere. I’m SWAT/Sniper/Diver Certified, as well as a Firearms and Defensive Tactics Instructor. I also spent 8 years as a Marine Corps infantryman. If you have any questions about or for me, please feel free to ask. Thanks again for your help.

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:47:28 AM EDT
Boy that quieted things down.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:51:25 AM EDT
So you are saying that you've got trigger time, work with firearms on a regular basis, aren't concerned with the legality, and still asked this question?

People leave "other" comments because they are concerned with newbies coming here to try and gain illegal mod ideas. I don't blame anyone for being cautious, looking at what you say you do, you should understand that. You failed to leave info, which made it sound like you were trying to scam the system. Anyway, its over, so here are my thoughts.


You could buy a Jennings or Raven, clean it up, polish the trigger, work on its feeding, and you would still have a POS that you would never carry for duty. Buying a cast/ garbage POS lower, and trying to make it work, while still ending up with something that may be unsafe or nonfunctional at any moment is not a good use of your time. Get a few 80% lowers and work on them, you are doing yourself a bigger service in the long run.

Welcome to the board from a city cop.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:56:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigHitter:
Boy that quieted things down.



His first post was written in a manner that sounds like he is a felon trying to come up with an untraceable weapon. His second post says he is a Fed and knew it was legal the entire time.

I would suggest it quieted down because people figured they were mislead, and now consider him untrust worthy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:09:58 AM EDT
I’ve got an old buddy from high school who’s been and FBI agent for 25 years. He’s always sending me hats and t-shirts whenever he gets back to Quantico. I made the mistake of wearing an FBI hat to a gun show. After about 15 minutes they announce that a federal agent is in the building so watch what you do. All the sudden no one would talk to me and boy did I get some dirty looks. It took a while to sink in but I figured it out.

I generally like most of the Feds I’ve met. They like to party hard too.

I don’t like a sneaky snake baiting people into saying something stupid. Very uncool.

For all we know the bit about being a fed is all BS too.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:43:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.






Why the frowny face? RES is right, even more so -- if you look at MidwayUSA's catalog, they sell both the Uberti and other Italian reproduction cap and ball revolvers and the cartridge cylinder conversion kits for them. You don't need an FFL to buy the cap and ball revolver mail order because it is exempt from GCA '68 being an "antique" design, and the cartridge cylinder conversions don't require an FFL to order because they are "just parts". They are on the same page of the catalog, and there is nothing stopping you from buying both at the same time. Its a loophole, yes, but legal.

All that said, who cares? I seriously doubt many people are going to do that with nefarious purposes in mind, there are easier, cheaper and more untraceable ways for people to buy a modern firearm. I believe that the same thing is true of 80% lowers. I really don't believe they are an attractive option to people who want to do bad things. Its a lot more work, and a lot more expensive. They are for us builder hobbiests who enjoy DIY projects and maybe the tinfoil hat crowd.

I also agree with RES that trying to convert a dummy receiver probably won't work, at best, and I still think it could very well be dangerous.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:50:50 AM EDT
Thanks for the feedback Stickman. I did speak with Tom Sawyer on the phone before posting the question and between him and you all here, I think I'm just going to have to jump right into it. I think I'll buy some cheap castings until I'm more confident with my machining skills, and then purchase a billet 80% for the actuall receiver I'm going to use. This is supposed to be a memorial type rifle, which is why I don't want a trademark on it. Both sides of the magazine well will bear the names of lost brothers.

I can assure you all that I'm not trying to scam the system, in fact, the reason I asked the question here is to ensure I am following the law. One thing I never understood is why the animosity towards federal LEOs, especially from other LEOs. Most of the agents I work with are former military or street cops, and I trust them with my life the same I would if I were still in the infantry, or a patrol officer would with another patrol officer. Lastly, I would be more than happy to IM a moderator with my info to confirm I am who I am.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:54:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.



hr


Why the frowny face? RES is right, even more so -- if you look at MidwayUSA's catalog, they sell both the Uberti and other Italian reproduction cap and ball revolvers and the cartridge cylinder conversion kits for them. You don't need an FFL to buy the cap and ball revolver mail order because it is exempt from GCA '68 being an "antique" design, and the cartridge cylinder conversions don't require an FFL to order because they are "just parts". They are on the same page of the catalog, and there is nothing stopping you from buying both at the same time. Its a loophole, yes, but legal.

All that said, who cares? I seriously doubt many people are going to do that with nefarious purposes in mind, there are easier, cheaper and more untraceable ways for people to buy a modern firearm. I believe that the same thing is true of 80% lowers. I really don't believe they are an attractive option to people who want to do bad things. Its a lot more work, and a lot more expensive. They are for us builder hobbiests who enjoy DIY projects and maybe the tinfoil hat crowd.

I also agree with RES that trying to convert a dummy receiver probably won't work, at best, and I still think it could very well be dangerous.




Thanks a bunch.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:04:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunfighter-06:
Thanks for the feedback Stickman. I did speak with Tom Sawyer on the phone before posting the question and between him and you all here, I think I'm just going to have to jump right into it. I think I'll buy some cheap castings until I'm more confident with my machining skills, and then purchase a billet 80% for the actuall receiver I'm going to use. This is supposed to be a memorial type rifle, which is why I don't want a trademark on it. Both sides of the magazine well will bear the names of lost brothers.

I can assure you all that I'm not trying to scam the system, in fact, the reason I asked the question here is to ensure I am following the law. One thing I never understood is why the animosity towards federal LEOs, especially from other LEOs. Most of the agents I work with are former military or street cops, and I trust them with my life the same I would if I were still in the infantry, or a patrol officer would with another patrol officer. Lastly, I would be more than happy to IM a moderator with my info to confirm I am who I am.



I'm pretty sure not many here care who or what you are.

You state you have worked closely with the ATF, and are a HSLD Operator, but yet you come here to see if you are within the law? You went to an Internet forum for legal advice? Your very first post is a dubious (although legal) question, then when you catch some heat for it, you submit your resume in post number 2? What does your background have to do with any of this?

OK Gunfighter-06, whatever you want us to believe.

Bob
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:14:02 AM EDT
Well, looking on Tannery's site (and his auctions), it specifically says :


Disabled Fire Control Well will not accept firing parts and is disabled by specific machining operations to prevent attempts to introduce operating firing parts. Fire Control Well is machined to accept only the Demonstrator Trigger Block Demonstrator Trigger Block is matched to receiver; held in place with “one way” steel spring pins and permanent metal adhesive.



And that was the one that was w/ a 100% finished mag well. The other "dummy" ones have no mag well. As suggested, the 80% is prob.the better bet......

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:22:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunfighter-06:
I’ve done CI/CT operations, counter-narcotics operations and a lot of protective services operations. I’ve conducted multiple operations in the Middle East and elsewhere. I’m SWAT/Sniper/Diver Certified, as well as a Firearms and Defensive Tactics Instructor. I also spent 8 years as a Marine Corps infantryman. If you have any questions about or for me, please feel free to ask.




Your resume? Are you applying for a job here?

I dont believe they are hiring.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:26:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 12:27:48 PM EDT by lt557]

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.






Why the frowny face? RES is right, even more so -- if you look at MidwayUSA's catalog, they sell both the Uberti and other Italian reproduction cap and ball revolvers and the cartridge cylinder conversion kits for them. You don't need an FFL to buy the cap and ball revolver mail order because it is exempt from GCA '68 being an "antique" design, and the cartridge cylinder conversions don't require an FFL to order because they are "just parts". They are on the same page of the catalog, and there is nothing stopping you from buying both at the same time. Its a loophole, yes, but legal.

All that said, who cares? I seriously doubt many people are going to do that with nefarious purposes in mind, there are easier, cheaper and more untraceable ways for people to buy a modern firearm. I believe that the same thing is true of 80% lowers. I really don't believe they are an attractive option to people who want to do bad things. Its a lot more work, and a lot more expensive. They are for us builder hobbiests who enjoy DIY projects and maybe the tinfoil hat crowd.

I also agree with RES that trying to convert a dummy receiver probably won't work, at best, and I still think it could very well be dangerous.



Thats not a frowney face. This is a frowney face.

The cap and ball revolver thing, great way to arm a convicted felon from the privacy of his own home.

Yes I know its a loophole, I know its legal, I know felons can get guns by other means. I just dont like the idea of it.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:29:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 1:32:08 PM EDT by SoftwareJanitor]

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
Think about it, you can buy a Remington 1858 cap & ball revolver in the mail from Cabelas, then order the 44 special cylinder from another dude, in about 10 seconds you have a cartridge revolver. That's legal, so why wouldn't this be? I just don't think it would work is all.






Why the frowny face? RES is right, even more so -- if you look at MidwayUSA's catalog, they sell both the Uberti and other Italian reproduction cap and ball revolvers and the cartridge cylinder conversion kits for them. You don't need an FFL to buy the cap and ball revolver mail order because it is exempt from GCA '68 being an "antique" design, and the cartridge cylinder conversions don't require an FFL to order because they are "just parts". They are on the same page of the catalog, and there is nothing stopping you from buying both at the same time. Its a loophole, yes, but legal.

All that said, who cares? I seriously doubt many people are going to do that with nefarious purposes in mind, there are easier, cheaper and more untraceable ways for people to buy a modern firearm. I believe that the same thing is true of 80% lowers. I really don't believe they are an attractive option to people who want to do bad things. Its a lot more work, and a lot more expensive. They are for us builder hobbiests who enjoy DIY projects and maybe the tinfoil hat crowd.

I also agree with RES that trying to convert a dummy receiver probably won't work, at best, and I still think it could very well be dangerous.



Thats not a frowney face. This is a frowney face.

The cap and ball revolver thing, great way to arm a convicted felon from the privacy of his own home.

Yes I know its a loophole, I know its legal, I know felons can get guns by other means. I just dont like the idea of it.



The emoticon you used is the angry looking one, the one you put below is the sad looking one. I get the difference, I just don't see why you are angry.

Most places that sell them specifically state that felons are not allowed to buy the cartridge conversion cylinders, and felons can't legally buy or possess ammo. I don't think a convicted felon can legally own the converted pistol anyway (not sure about the black powder firearms) and the BATF web site specifically states that felons are not allowed to complete an 80% receiver. I've never heard of a convicted felon using one of the loopholes around needing an FFL to aquire a firearm and commit a crime with it. Not to say that it couldn't, or hasn't ever happened, it just must be pretty damned rare. Its just too much cheaper and easier to buy one on the black market. The bottom line I think is that criminals are usually criminals because they are too lazy to work hard enough to get what they want legally. Or they are too stupid, in which case, they probably couldn't figure out the loopholes anyway. Personally, if it were up to me I'd repeal NFA '34 and GCA '68. There are better ways of dealing with criminals than those unconstitutional abominations that really only affect the law abiding citizen anyway.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:43:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

The emoticon you used is the angry looking one, the one you put below is the sad looking one. I get the difference, I just don't see why you are angry.

Most places that sell them specifically state that felons are not allowed to buy the cartridge conversion cylinders, and felons can't legally buy or possess ammo. I don't think a convicted felon can legally own the converted pistol anyway (not sure about the black powder firearms) and the BATF web site specifically states that felons are not allowed to complete an 80% receiver. I've never heard of a convicted felon using one of the loopholes around needing an FFL to aquire a firearm and commit a crime with it. Not to say that it couldn't, or hasn't ever happened, it just must be pretty damned rare. Its just too much cheaper and easier to buy one on the black market. The bottom line I think is that criminals are usually criminals because they are too lazy to work hard enough to get what they want legally. Or they are too stupid, in which case, they probably couldn't figure out the loopholes anyway. Personally, if it were up to me I'd repeal NFA '34 and GCA '68. There are better ways of dealing with criminals than those unconstitutional abominations that really only affect the law abiding citizen anyway.



This is the angry face or this

I agree mostly agree with you on the gun laws.

Good criminals are far from stupid.

Good criminals would obtain an untraceable firearm using the methods you describe.

No one else involved to snitch them out, no traceable markings or records to run a trace

The emoticon I used intially represents suspicion.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:12:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

The emoticon you used is the angry looking one, the one you put below is the sad looking one. I get the difference, I just don't see why you are angry.

Most places that sell them specifically state that felons are not allowed to buy the cartridge conversion cylinders, and felons can't legally buy or possess ammo. I don't think a convicted felon can legally own the converted pistol anyway (not sure about the black powder firearms) and the BATF web site specifically states that felons are not allowed to complete an 80% receiver. I've never heard of a convicted felon using one of the loopholes around needing an FFL to aquire a firearm and commit a crime with it. Not to say that it couldn't, or hasn't ever happened, it just must be pretty damned rare. Its just too much cheaper and easier to buy one on the black market. The bottom line I think is that criminals are usually criminals because they are too lazy to work hard enough to get what they want legally. Or they are too stupid, in which case, they probably couldn't figure out the loopholes anyway. Personally, if it were up to me I'd repeal NFA '34 and GCA '68. There are better ways of dealing with criminals than those unconstitutional abominations that really only affect the law abiding citizen anyway.



This is the angry face or this

I agree mostly agree with you on the gun laws.

Good criminals are far from stupid.

Good criminals would obtain an untraceable firearm using the methods you describe.

No one else involved to snitch them out, no traceable markings or records to run a trace

The emoticon I used intially represents suspicion.



I wouldn't say that ordering a cap and ball revolver and a conversion cylinder is "untraceable". If you order from Cabellas or MidwayUSA.com, they are still going to have a record of the sale, even if they aren't required to collect and store a 4473. Good criminals? Well, if there are such a thing, there can't be very many, because like I said, the loopholes that are out there probably would have gotten closed up a long time ago if they were ever a real problem. I'm not at all convinced that "tracing" something is all that useful very often in solving or preventing crime in the first place. It may be used after the fact to loop in someone who was a straw buyer or something like that, but by that time it is more than likely a bit late because the original crook has most likely committed a crime (and probably gotten caught by other means otherwise there wouldn't be anything to trace).

If a "smart criminal" really wants to get an "untraceable" firearm, the best way for them to do it would be to steal someones identity they don't even know, but who fits their approximate characteristics (gender, race, etc). Identity theft happens every day, it is the crime of the 21st century. Once they've got the info they can get ids issued in the victim's name with their SSN, etc. Not all that difficult to do, albiet perhaps a bit risky in some states. They can then use those ids to buy a firearm, or two, or six, but as long as they don't ever use that identity to get credit or any of the traditional things identity thieves do -- the victim will almost undoubtedly never find out their identity has been stolen if their credit isn't damaged. They can casually fill out the 4473, the identity theft and the victim will most likely pass the NICS check. Then if the firearm is ever found, it will trace to someone who will honestly have absolutely no clue "they" ever purchased the firearm in question...

What it comes down to is that there will ALWAYS be a way that someone could get around the system unless you make the system completely repressive. In my opinion closing up the existing loopholes would do nothing other than inconvenience hobbiests and make the tinfoil hat crowd even more paranoid. There are just a lot more important things to worry about than stuff like this.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:29:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:33:11 PM EDT
Ok, I didn't come here to start trouble or get into an argument. I didn't post my "resume"; I was simply introducing myself and providing some background about me, which is typically customary on a forum. Yes, I came here for advice because those who should know couldn’t give me an answer. I thought maybe someone here would have some experience in the area and be able to provide some guidance. I understand that any advice I get from an internet forum is exactly that. I’m not trying to offend anyone here, nor am I trying to impress any of you with my credentials. I’m very new to area of home builds and gunsmithing in general and thought this would be a good place to start learning.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:35:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:
If a "smart criminal" really wants to get an "untraceable" firearm, the best way for them to do it would be to steal someones






Well, yes, that is certainly the tried and true method, and statistically, how most firearms used by felons to commit crimes are aquired...
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:41:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunfighter-06:
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to help. I appreciate the effort. For those who decided to leave "other" comments, I was surprised to see those considering the type of members on this board, but I guess as with any board, I should expect to find a few children out there. I work closely with the ATF and have discussed this issue with several of them and they couldn’t answer my questions because all of the laws we found pertain to modifying a pre-existing weapon, which a dummy is not. Anything else would simply be a homemade firearm, which is not illegal. That said, I still wanted to poll the members here because there seem to be some very knowledgeable folks out there.

Second, I apologize for not introducing myself first. I didn’t see a member’s introduction section. I’m a federal law enforcement agent currently stationed in NC. I’ve done CI/CT operations, counter-narcotics operations and a lot of protective services operations. I’ve conducted multiple operations in the Middle East and elsewhere. I’m SWAT/Sniper/Diver Certified, as well as a Firearms and Defensive Tactics Instructor. I also spent 8 years as a Marine Corps infantryman. If you have any questions about or for me, please feel free to ask. Thanks again for your help.



I'm going to take a guess here, are you by any chance Homeland Security? USCG? Sounds similar to my own resume. exept I was under DOT.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:43:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
I'm going to take a guess here, are you by any chance Homeland Security? USCG? Sounds similar to my own resume. exept I was under DOT.



No, sorry.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:48:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:57:10 PM EDT
Maybe this is not the time or place but I want to mention that Stick and Tweak always have good input. You guys are the voice of reason.

I appreciate your input. I pretty much take your word as gospel.

Then again I’ve been out drinking so maybe it’s the martini’s talking.

Happy new year..
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:58:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By Gunfighter-06:
Ok, I didn't come here to start trouble or get into an argument.



don't sweat it 6, this is the common greeting n00bs receive here, until other's learn how to interpret your posts there will be lots of confusion. welcome to the board.



Yea, this forum can be a little tough on n00bs. I've been online for around 20 years now (before the internet was even called that) and my first couple of posts around here after I had been lurking for a while I was jumped all over for allegedly being an employee of M&A (not true) because I posted that I'd been happy with the kit I ordered from them in a thread bashing them.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:01:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

I wouldn't say that ordering a cap and ball revolver and a conversion cylinder is "untraceable". If you order from Cabellas or MidwayUSA.com, they are still going to have a record of the sale, even if they aren't required to collect and store a 4473. Good criminals? Well, if there are such a thing, there can't be very many, because like I said, the loopholes that are out there probably would have gotten closed up a long time ago if they were ever a real problem. I'm not at all convinced that "tracing" something is all that useful very often in solving or preventing crime in the first place. It may be used after the fact to loop in someone who was a straw buyer or something like that, but by that time it is more than likely a bit late because the original crook has most likely committed a crime (and probably gotten caught by other means otherwise there wouldn't be anything to trace).

If a "smart criminal" really wants to get an "untraceable" firearm, the best way for them to do it would be to steal someones identity they don't even know, but who fits their approximate characteristics (gender, race, etc). Identity theft happens every day, it is the crime of the 21st century. Once they've got the info they can get ids issued in the victim's name with their SSN, etc. Not all that difficult to do, albiet perhaps a bit risky in some states. They can then use those ids to buy a firearm, or two, or six, but as long as they don't ever use that identity to get credit or any of the traditional things identity thieves do -- the victim will almost undoubtedly never find out their identity has been stolen if their credit isn't damaged. They can casually fill out the 4473, the identity theft and the victim will most likely pass the NICS check. Then if the firearm is ever found, it will trace to someone who will honestly have absolutely no clue "they" ever purchased the firearm in question...

What it comes down to is that there will ALWAYS be a way that someone could get around the system unless you make the system completely repressive. In my opinion closing up the existing loopholes would do nothing other than inconvenience hobbiests and make the tinfoil hat crowd even more paranoid. There are just a lot more important things to worry about than stuff like this.



The purpose of a 4473 is to facilatate a trace.

A smart criminal will not risk a petty crime like Burglary.

As I said before, no others involved, done in complete privacy.

The key to pulling off any crime is to plan alone, act alone and never brag or confess to anyone.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigHitter:
Maybe this is not the time or place but I want to mention that Stick and Tweak always have good input. You guys are the voice of reason.

I appreciate your input. I pretty much take your word as gospel.

Then again I’ve been out drinking so maybe it’s the martini’s talking.

Happy new year..



I would agree, but then again, I'm on my fourth beer, so I'll have to offer a similar caveat. It doesn't take all that long around here to figure out which of the regular posters are the good folks and who are full of BS. I won't say I agree with anyone all of the time, but some people I can at least believe they have a legitimate and well thought out reason for their opinions, even if they differ from mine. I'd have to say that Stick and Tweak definitely fall into that category.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:06:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
don't sweat it 6, this is the common greeting n00bs receive here, until other's learn how to interpret your posts there will be lots of confusion. welcome to the board.



Thanks Tweak.


Originally Posted By BigHitter:
Maybe this is not the time or place but I want to mention that Stick and Tweak always have good input. You guys are the voice of reason.
I appreciate your input. I pretty much take your word as gospel.



If that’s the case, I’m looking forward to reading more of the gospel.


Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:
Yea, this forum can be a little tough on n00bs. I've been online for around 20 years now (before the internet was even called that) and my first couple of posts around here after I had been lurking for a while I was jumped all over for allegedly being an employee of M&A (not true) because I posted that I'd been happy with the kit I ordered from them in a thread bashing them.



Thanks again SJ.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:11:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigHitter:
I’ve got an old buddy from high school who’s been and FBI agent for 25 years. He’s always sending me hats and t-shirts whenever he gets back to Quantico. I made the mistake of wearing an FBI hat to a gun show. After about 15 minutes they announce that a federal agent is in the building so watch what you do. All the sudden no one would talk to me and boy did I get some dirty looks. It took a while to sink in but I figured it out.

I generally like most of the Feds I’ve met. They like to party hard too.

I don’t like a sneaky snake baiting people into saying something stupid. Very uncool.

For all we know the bit about being a fed is all BS too.



[hijack]

OMG!!!! You wore an FBI hat to a fun show!!!!!

Dude! That's like wearing an "I've got VD" shirt to an orgy!

[/hijack]

No Expert
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:13:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:34:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

I wouldn't say that ordering a cap and ball revolver and a conversion cylinder is "untraceable". If you order from Cabellas or MidwayUSA.com, they are still going to have a record of the sale, even if they aren't required to collect and store a 4473. Good criminals? Well, if there are such a thing, there can't be very many, because like I said, the loopholes that are out there probably would have gotten closed up a long time ago if they were ever a real problem. I'm not at all convinced that "tracing" something is all that useful very often in solving or preventing crime in the first place. It may be used after the fact to loop in someone who was a straw buyer or something like that, but by that time it is more than likely a bit late because the original crook has most likely committed a crime (and probably gotten caught by other means otherwise there wouldn't be anything to trace).

If a "smart criminal" really wants to get an "untraceable" firearm, the best way for them to do it would be to steal someones identity they don't even know, but who fits their approximate characteristics (gender, race, etc). Identity theft happens every day, it is the crime of the 21st century. Once they've got the info they can get ids issued in the victim's name with their SSN, etc. Not all that difficult to do, albiet perhaps a bit risky in some states. They can then use those ids to buy a firearm, or two, or six, but as long as they don't ever use that identity to get credit or any of the traditional things identity thieves do -- the victim will almost undoubtedly never find out their identity has been stolen if their credit isn't damaged. They can casually fill out the 4473, the identity theft and the victim will most likely pass the NICS check. Then if the firearm is ever found, it will trace to someone who will honestly have absolutely no clue "they" ever purchased the firearm in question...

What it comes down to is that there will ALWAYS be a way that someone could get around the system unless you make the system completely repressive. In my opinion closing up the existing loopholes would do nothing other than inconvenience hobbiests and make the tinfoil hat crowd even more paranoid. There are just a lot more important things to worry about than stuff like this.



The purpose of a 4473 is to facilatate a trace.

A smart criminal will not risk a petty crime like Burglary.

As I said before, no others involved, done in complete privacy.

The key to pulling off any crime is to plan alone, act alone and never brag or confess to anyone.



I know what a 4473 is for, but I personally think most of the time it is pretty much useless. Given that private sales in most states don't need to fill them out, the best it does is tell you what the last FFL that touched a firearm was and who they sold to. It can't tell squat after that if it was sold privately or stolen. Given that there was a guy in my area recently who got busted for selling at least 60 that they know of firearms through the classified ads that he bought from a FFL dealer, the 4473s haven't done any good in tracking down the people he sold to (cash sales w/o name or id check of any kind) other than the BATF agents who busted him. The guy wasn't even legal to buy -- he was a foreign national on a visa that doesn't permit firearm ownership, but he still passed NICS because he had a valid tax id and no felony convictions. He only got caught because he was greedy -- they eventually noticed the same phone number in the classifieds selling different stuff week after week. If he had been smart enough to buy a new trac-phone every couple weeks he would have probably gotten away with it a lot longer.

A smart criminal might risk a petty crime like identity theft or even burglary if there was very little chance for them to get caught.

There probably isn't a whole lot of difference in risk between buying a firearm from someone advertising in the classifieds vs. buying an 80% receiver and a kit through the mail or a cap-and-ball revolver and a conversion cylinder through the mail or a pre-1898 rifle through the mail...

The reason I'm a little touchy about this stuff, is I've personally bought firearms thought private sales including from ads in the classifieds. I've personally bought an 80% AR receiver blank and built an AR from a kit. I've personally bought a pre-1898 rifle through the mail (Turkish Model 1893 Mauser -- beautiful) and had it delivered right to my doorstep, and I plan on ordering a Remington 1858 cap and ball pistol in .44 and a .45 Colt conversion cylinder -- at the same time, from the same place. Why? Why not? I could, and have, bought plenty of firearms from FFL dealers and filled out the 4473 and passed the NICS. Why do I have to be inconvenienced because some criminal somewhere MIGHT do something? What right does anyone have to be suspicious of someone like me doing something completely legal?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By BigHitter:
I’ve got an old buddy from high school who’s been and FBI agent for 25 years. He’s always sending me hats and t-shirts whenever he gets back to Quantico. I made the mistake of wearing an FBI hat to a gun show. After about 15 minutes they announce that a federal agent is in the building so watch what you do. All the sudden no one would talk to me and boy did I get some dirty looks. It took a while to sink in but I figured it out.

I generally like most of the Feds I’ve met. They like to party hard too.

I don’t like a sneaky snake baiting people into saying something stupid. Very uncool.

For all we know the bit about being a fed is all BS too.



[hijack]

OMG!!!! You wore an FBI hat to a fun show!!!!!

Dude! That's like wearing an "I've got VD" shirt to an orgy!

[/hijack]

No Expert



Hee hee... I saw an "FBI" T-shirt on someone at a gun show one time... but when I got up closer I could read the sub-title... "Female Body Inspector"....
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:47:15 PM EDT
The problem with talking online is that its hard to tell what people actually mean. Sarcasm and humor are often lost, or taken as insulting.

I just got into an arguement with lt557 in another thread because a comment was misunderstood.


It happens, but after awhile you get a feel for people here. Some post fluff, some are here to learn, some are here to help.

If it helps any, I have never intentionally been rude or insulting to anyone here, though I have no doubt that I have come across that way at times.


Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:59:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 5:01:05 PM EDT by DvlDog]
i dont think this gentleman understands that we dont care who he is. we dont care if he's a Fed, and we dont care how spiffy cool he thinks his Fed buddies are. a stupid idea, and a stupid question are stupid regardless of who it comes from. we dont need to get a mod to confirm your identity. we wont be impressed and it doesnt make the idea of using dummy recievers anymore of a good idea.

this board is crawling with grunts, cops, snake eaters, door kickers, tacticool contractors and Feds. youre another guy with a single digit post count asking a stupid question for dubious reasons. welcome aboard.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:04:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:11:26 PM EDT
Is that a group hug I smell in the air.....
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:21:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:11:47 PM EDT
Nothing wrong with the group hug. Nothing homo about that..

Boy have I been drinking.

Ten martinies

Catch up with you next year………………………
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:22:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:34:30 AM EDT by Gunfighter-06]

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
i dont think this gentleman understands that we dont care who he is. we dont care if he's a Fed, and we dont care how spiffy cool he thinks his Fed buddies are. a stupid idea, and a stupid question are stupid regardless of who it comes from. we dont need to get a mod to confirm your identity. we wont be impressed and it doesnt make the idea of using dummy recievers anymore of a good idea.

this board is crawling with grunts, cops, snake eaters, door kickers, tacticool contractors and Feds. youre another guy with a single digit post count asking a stupid question for dubious reasons. welcome aboard.



Like I said before, I wasn't trying to impress anyone. Someone had made a comment about this being my first thread, which I took as him saying I was being rude for not introducing myself to the board before posting questions. The only other forums I've ever been on are fitness forums and it helps to know the background and experience of a member before other members can give good advice. What if I would have said I was a 16 year old high school student living in California and wanted to build an AR? Would the responses have been different?

As far as the stupid idea and stupid question. It wasn't my idea and I don't see how it could be stupid question if I have no experience in the area. If it's a stupid idea, great, school me. Tell me it's a stupid idea and why and suggest a better route. If you don't want to help out, that's your choice. I don't know how much I can contribute to the other members of this board, but I can tell you it won't be belittling, unprofessional or immature comments.

Thanks for the welcome though.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:10:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:43:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 7:46:49 AM EDT by robertl]
Gunfighter, if you do want to jump into the 80% game-stay away from the cast recievers. I built one yesterday and the quality was terrible. I knew that going in and did it just to prove to myself I could.

The mag well was undersize and took 2 hours of file/dremel work. The mag catch slot was undersized. The bolt hold open slot was undersized. The fire control well was undersized and the rear takedwon well was small as well. All in all I have about 8 hours of work in the reciever and it is still a piece of crap, but it is a piece of crap that goes bang that I bulit myself using only a CNCGunsmithing jig, a dremel tool, a 1/2" handdrill and basic hand tools.

Save your self the agony and buy a quality 80% forging or billet reciever. Buy the CNCGunsmithing jig and the drill bits and taps. You can build your receiver in about 2 hours if you have access to a good drill press and a basic knowledge of hand tools. I used a hand drill to satisfy some masochistic urge, but you really need a quality drill press to do the job easily and correctly. Also buy one of the 80% reicevers that doesn't require the recoil tube hole to be drilled to size before tapping, that is the most dificult operation and the most expensive bit to buy.

Good luck on your build. Besides the advice on the 80% reciever, I would tell you that before posting on a new inernet site, do a little serious lurking and see what the norms are for that site. People on this site are very carefull to keep things above board and on the level. Anything that is percieved as trying to circumvent the law is strictly taboo. I don't think that was your intent, but some saw it as such. On a positeve note, you didn't get toasted nearly as bad as the fellow who asked about converting an Airsoft or Replica to fire real ammo. Welcome to ARFCOM!

(edited because my indents didn't show for my paragraphs)
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