Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 12/1/2005 7:26:06 AM EDT
Who sells em?
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 7:27:43 AM EDT
What do you want that junk for, MAN?
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 7:29:32 AM EDT
I'm trying to build something really light.... still debating the whole carbon fiber part or just going with alum receivers and then making the rest as light as possible.
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 7:32:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 1:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
What do you want that junk for, MAN?



Besides no forward assist on the upper, whats wrong with it?
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 1:44:55 PM EDT
I've seen a few people complain about how easy the receiver extension threads strip out. I'd imagine the same goes for the threads in the upper.
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 6:19:31 PM EDT
Well, I don't have one, never held or shot one eithor. I do feel that it is a poor substitute for aluminum for one reason. Carbon fiber is much much more brittle than alulminum and therefore would be easier to damage. Instead of a scrape/gouge in aluminum, you might potentially have a crack in carbon fiber. As I said, I might be wrong, I just don't think that it has been tested enough to really be a good choice for me. However if you are trying to build the lightest ar possible, then they may be your only option, if the absulute minimum weight attainable is needed.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 3:46:45 PM EDT
Seems quite often on this board when someone asks a question, people who have niether held or shot the weapon in question come out of the woodwork to offer their opinions. Also, there's alot of people out there who will tell you that they heard this or that about something, when they don't offer any firsthand knowledge. Not sure how much their opinion is worth- Maybe they are just boosting their number of posts or maybe they just like to see thier name on a board. In either case, lack of first hand knowledge is a real detriment to accurate opinions.

For the record, I own a carbon 15, among many other AR variants and even an M16. The carbon 15, in my first-hand opinion is a great light rifle. It handles surprisingly well and weighs nothing. It would be a great option for a light-weight AR variant. If you can find the receiver only for sale. There may be other building issues- i.e. barrel and handguard installation, that may have to be done at the factory.

Also, FWIW, the carbon 15 was produced initially by another company before Bushmaster acquired it. Some of the bum reviews and second handers don't acknowledge that Bush has changed things for the better.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 5:42:57 PM EDT
I owned a Professional Ordnance pistol. I was not impressed with the quality at all and did not keep it long. I have looked the bushmasters over and they seem to be of better quality but I'm still not sold. I've been dealing with ARs for 22 years and theres no substitute for the real thing. The Pro Ord pistol was fun when it ran but you can build the same thing utilizing standard uppers and lowers and I feel that you would be much happier in the long run. The parts are readily available and fully interchangable when using aluminum. If you use the "carbon fiber" not all the parts are interchangable, it requires special tools and torque specs for the barrel assembly as well as the lower receiver extention that holds the recoil spring and buffer being differant as well. A standard extension will fit the lower but because of the dis-similar materials you get un-uniform expansion and contraction between the two materials risking a crack in the lowers ring. Once that happens the game is over for the lower and at that point your out some serious cash.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:27:33 PM EDT
I built a ultra light based on the Vulcan carbon lower and upper. While the lower required a little trimming (very minor) once in place its great. As for the upper, heat will be the end of it. The barrel threads on the upper melt after just less than 1K rounds.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:37:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I built a ultra light based on the Vulcan carbon lower and upper. While the lower required a little trimming (very minor) once in place its great. As for the upper, heat will be the end of it. The barrel threads on the upper melt after just less than 1K rounds.



Is that true if you don't fire long sustained fire and let it cool down reasonably, or is 1k rounds all you can expect from a carbon upper even if you baby it?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 8:40:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -C4-:
I'm trying to build something really light.... still debating the whole carbon fiber part or just going with alum receivers and then making the rest as light as possible.



Anyone know how much less a carbon fiber upper and a carbon fiber lower really weigh than their aluminum counterparts? As light as an aluminum lower is, I just can't imagine you really save more than a few ounces? Not even enough to be noticeable I'd think.

Of course in the interest of fairness and total disclosure, I don't think my 20" HBAR is too heavy...
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:16:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I built a ultra light based on the Vulcan carbon lower and upper. While the lower required a little trimming (very minor) once in place its great. As for the upper, heat will be the end of it. The barrel threads on the upper melt after just less than 1K rounds.



Is that true if you don't fire long sustained fire and let it cool down reasonably, or is 1k rounds all you can expect from a carbon upper even if you baby it?



In all honesty, if you baby it, you could probably get much more than 1K rounds out of it. I was doing mag dumps out of mine toward the end of its life. I still have one upper around somewhere and was thinking a dedicated 9mm or .22 upper would probably greatly increase the life expectancy.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 9:24:19 AM EDT
Bushmaster has stripped Carbon uppers and lowers (pistol & carbine) in their latest catalog. Don't believe their site has been updated. The catalog number is 2005 V.2.


OB_1
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 10:59:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 11:00:06 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]
lone star wholesale in the industry forum had some bushmaster ones last time i saw them
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:19:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 8:24:29 PM EDT by KCMojo]

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I built a ultra light based on the Vulcan carbon lower and upper. While the lower required a little trimming (very minor) once in place its great. As for the upper, heat will be the end of it. The barrel threads on the upper melt after just less than 1K rounds.



BS

2500 rounds on mine and no problems. No "melt"ing. None nope nadad. Mag Dumps yes.

Mythology. Note all the melted Glocks littering the streets?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:47:51 PM EDT
FWIW--Had a Hesse Upper & Lower. Lower worked fine. Only problem was the magwell was too tight. Had to pull to get mags out. I never had a problem shooting with the upper. Even with some F/A. I destroyed the upper trying to rebarrel it. Last winter it was sitting in my garage at about 5 below zero hen
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:08:26 AM EDT
Interesting. I'd like to get some info on real long term usage ... eg 10,000 rounds, but most people haven't had them long enough for that.

-C4-
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:40:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Anyone know how much less a carbon fiber upper and a carbon fiber lower really weigh than their aluminum counterparts?



tag for answer
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:03:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 8:13:03 AM EDT by Easy_E]

Originally Posted By feral:

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Anyone know how much less a carbon fiber upper and a carbon fiber lower really weigh than their aluminum counterparts?



tag for answer




Found something
With carbon upper

With aluminum upper

The difference in weight vs reliability is not worth it....
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:00:21 AM EDT
Thanks, Easy_E.

Very interesting..........5-6 ounces.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:03:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 10:07:19 AM EDT by Slumlord]

Originally Posted By KCMojo:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I built a ultra light based on the Vulcan carbon lower and upper. While the lower required a little trimming (very minor) once in place its great. As for the upper, heat will be the end of it. The barrel threads on the upper melt after just less than 1K rounds.



BS

2500 rounds on mine and no problems. No "melt"ing. None nope nadad. Mag Dumps yes.

Mythology. Note all the melted Glocks littering the streets?



I'll call you on this one. I'm not going to touch the Glock comment, whole differnt ball game. As for the Vulcan uppers, here are some photos from what happend to mine.





Here is the link to the original thread when I came across this problem.
Link
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:03:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slumlord:

members.quixnet.net/mcress/v1.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v2.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v3.jpg




I'd have to say those threads look FUBAR.

Not a pretty sight.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:41:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By feral:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:

members.quixnet.net/mcress/v1.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v2.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v3.jpg




I'd have to say those threads look FUBAR.

Not a pretty sight.



Exactly, and I've often wondered if the Bushmaster uppers have the same problem.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:36:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Well, I don't have one, never held or shot one eithor. I do feel that it is a poor substitute for aluminum for one reason. Carbon fiber is much much more brittle than alulminum and therefore would be easier to damage. Instead of a scrape/gouge in aluminum, you might potentially have a crack in carbon fiber. As I said, I might be wrong, I just don't think that it has been tested enough to really be a good choice for me. However if you are trying to build the lightest ar possible, then they may be your only option, if the absulute minimum weight attainable is needed.



Someone better tell the USAF and US Navy (along with Boeing and Airbus) that carbon-fiber is not a good material to use when building aircraft...
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:46:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 7:46:59 PM EDT by KA3B]
As I have stated MANY times before....

If you copy an AR15 and build it out of something OTHER than aluminum you are not taking advantage of the strengths of that material, be it steel or carbon fiber.

A lower made of stainless steel does not need all of the material to"be" an aluminum AR15 lower like an AR15 lower does. It does not have to look like a lower made of aluminum.

Same goes for a lower made of carbon-fiber.

In Slumlords pictures you can see that carbon fiber is a piss poor material in which to make THREADS or a THREADED object out of.

DUHH.

The threaded part should have been made of aluminum and imbedded in the carbon fiber matrix to prevent thread stripping.
That's how it's done in the "real" world.

"SOMEONE" could build an AR15 based rifle out of carbon fiber to take advantage of the strengths of carbon fiber, however, it would not look like an "AR15" when they were done.

That's called ENGINEERING.



Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I'll call you on this one. I'm not going to touch the Glock comment, whole differnt ball game. As for the Vulcan uppers, here are some photos from what happend to mine.
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v1.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v2.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v3.jpg

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:40:19 PM EDT

The threaded part should have been made of aluminum and imbedded in the carbon fiber matrix to prevent thread stripping.
That's how it's done in the "real" world.



The only problem with that or the only reason to use a carbon upper is saving weight. If you look at the difference in weight of the two uppers the metal threaded part would make the two uppers the same.
The aluminum upper in the pics has a trap door cover and forward assist. So there is less reason here to use carbon in my thoughts.
The lower would be a different thing .
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:02:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:32:39 PM EDT by KCMojo]

Originally Posted By Slumlord:

members.quixnet.net/mcress/v1.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v2.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v3.jpg




Yep they looked stripped all right. They don't look "Melted" to me.

The vulcan looks different than my BM. Not sure what it is. Are they Carbon or just plastic?

I also think Vulcan could be the first trouble here. Even the Alum Vulcan has a bad rep.

It's like comparing Glock polymer to Hi-Point plastic. Nothing against Hi-Point, but they are not the same quality, durability, etc.... If you only based your opinion on 1 Hi-Point failure, you would miss out on Glock.

And that is from a guy who sold his Glock .40 and kept the Steel SW .40
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:23:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KCMojo:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:

members.quixnet.net/mcress/v1.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v2.jpg
members.quixnet.net/mcress/v3.jpg




Yep they looked stripped all right. They don't look "Melted" to me.

The vulcan looks different than my BM. Not sure what it is. Are they Carbon or just plastic?

I also think Vulcan could be the first trouble here. Even the Alum Vulcan has a bad rep.

It's like comparing Glock polymer to Hi-Point plastic. Nothing against Hi-Point, but they are not the same quality, durability, etc.... If you only based your opinion on 1 Hi-Point failure, you would miss out on Glock.

And that is from a guy who sold his Glock .40 and kept the SW .40



I base my belief that they were melted by the fact that the barrel nut was tight up until somewhere over 500+ rounds. The barrel was installed only once on that upper and was not removed until it was apparent that the threads were no longer holding the barrel on well. I don't claim nor have I ever that my Vulcan upper was of any quality compared to anything. That is why I have asked many a time if the Bushmaster uppers have this same problem. My general assumption was that if Bushmaster was mass producing their carbon uppers then they were probably not having this same problem.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:32:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:36:13 PM EDT by KCMojo]

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I base my belief that they were melted by the fact that the barrel nut was tight up until somewhere over 500+ rounds. The barrel was installed only once on that upper and was not removed until it was apparent that the threads were no longer holding the barrel on well. I don't claim nor have I ever that my Vulcan upper was of any quality compared to anything. That is why I have asked many a time if the Bushmaster uppers have this same problem. My general assumption was that if Bushmaster was mass producing their carbon uppers then they were probably not having this same problem.




Fair Enough. Thanks for the extra info. Sounds like one more reason I will stay away from Vulcan.

Have not removed my nut, but mt BM C15M4 with 2500 rounds in it does not have any signs of that problem.

I have seen the Vulcan uppers in the Sportsman's Guide. Never imagined they were possibly plastic. For the Cost there you may as well buy direct from BM or someone if you need an upper.

Vulcan 22 upper 399-
BM 22 upper 387-

Other comparable BM uppers to the Vulcan they sell are more, but probably worth the extra quality from BM. Shop around and both can be beat by other dealers, brands etc... So why do they sell the Vulcans?

Does anyone out there Love their Vulcans? Seriously! Not like or have had no problems. LOVE IT?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:37:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KCMojo:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
I base my belief that they were melted by the fact that the barrel nut was tight up until somewhere over 500+ rounds. The barrel was installed only once on that upper and was not removed until it was apparent that the threads were no longer holding the barrel on well. I don't claim nor have I ever that my Vulcan upper was of any quality compared to anything. That is why I have asked many a time if the Bushmaster uppers have this same problem. My general assumption was that if Bushmaster was mass producing their carbon uppers then they were probably not having this same problem.




Fair Enough. Thanks for the extra info. Sounds like one more reason I will stay away from Vulcan.

Have not removed my nut, but mt BM C15M4 with 2500 rounds in it does not have any signs of that problem.

I have seen the Vulcan uppers in the Sportsman's Guide. Never imagined they were possibly plastic. For the Cost there you may as well buy direct from BM or someone if you need an upper.

Vulcan 22 upper 399-
BM 22 upper 387-

Other comparable BM uppers to the Vulcan they sell are more, but probably worth the extra quality from BM. Shop around and both can be beat by other dealers, brands etc... So why do they sell the Vulcans?

Does anyone out there Love their Vulcans? Seriously! Not like or have had no problems. LOVE IT?



I'll take that as a no.
Top Top