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Posted: 11/8/2003 11:03:34 AM EDT
New to board - Hi everyone.

I have a basic question about pre/post ban AR's that is somewhat confusing to me.

I have been reading what info I can on the subject, and it is precisely this info that has contributed to my confusion.

Background:
When I left the service in the mid-80's, I wanted to build a GAU (Ground Assault Unit, as we called 'em) with a short barrel, and collapsable stock. I ordered a lower from Olympic Arms, and the trigger/disconnector/selector/hammer from a company in Ill. that is no longer in biz. I have the receipt for the internals, but do not have the receipt from Oly (although I vfd the sn was from a pre-ban date on their web site).

Alas, other priorities took place (college, marriage, etc...) and I was never able to purchase the remaining parts. And so, the lower (and internals) have sat in an old ammo can for nearly 20 years, mostly forgotten.

Until now.

So, I understand that an AR is considered pre-ban if it was built/purchased prior to the ban. I understand that the lower must be part of a SAW in order for the lower to be considered eligible for pre-ban status.

Am I correct so far?

If so, then I cannot build a pre-ban AR based on any extant pre-ban lower that was not part of a SAW. Is that correct?

Here is where the confusion starts for me. I was reading one of the pages here (An AR Primer - http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/primer/) which states the following:
"Can I build a Pre-Ban rifle to save money you ask? Why, yes. But its difficult. Pre-Ban lower receivers are extremely difficult to find these days and are expensive, usually fetching in excess of $300.00 for the lower receiver alone. But should you be able to find one for sale; first, check the serial number with the manufacturer and if it is confirmed as a "Pre-Ban", then negotiate the sale. You will then build, as instructed above, but have the option of installing the "banned" features."

So, does this mean that I can build a "pre-ban" AR if I already own a pre-ban lower? Sorry of this is obvious, but the info I have read seems a bit contradictory.

I would like to purchase this (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/bura2b11555.asp), and the appropriate stock and build my AR.

Is this legal? What ATF forms do I need to fill out? Do I need an FFL or just a local FFL to transfer the stock?

Finally, if my trigger/selector/disconnector/selector are M16 parts, can I use them in my lower legally (no auto sear), or do I need another form for that?

Thanks for any and all replies, I know you must get these sorts of questions frequently.

--KT

Link Posted: 11/8/2003 2:06:41 PM EDT
correct. you can't build a rifle as a preban on a receiver that was never assembled into a complete preban rifle nefore the ban. well, you could, but it would not be legal. to the best of my knowledge the ATF generally recommends that you don't use m16 parts in an ar15. now, you could, and leave out the m16 sear and other stuff that would make it a machine gun, and people have done it, but there is no existing firm statement from ATF that i know of that says it's okay, even though the gun in its present state would not be an m16. but if someone had it in for you, they could claim it would be 'readily convertable' or something like that. you don't want to be the ATF test case! i would sell the m16 parts and build the lower into a cool postban rifle. unless it is a cast lower, then i would sell it and start form scratch. but that's just me. i play it safe.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 1:29:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 2minkey: correct. you can't build a rifle as a preban on a receiver that was never assembled into a complete preban rifle nefore the ban. well, you could, but it would not be legal.
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It really bothers me to see the same tired myths and fables being stupidly repeated over and over again by people who have no clue what they're talking about. But this erroneous info gets reposted here so many times that soon it starts being taken as the gospel. This is a particular sore spot with me because it interfered with some guns I was recently selling. When it came to my built up, pre-ban EA Co. lower, I was subjected to a parade of morons demanding things like notarized statements that I had purchased this lower new and built it up before the ban, etc. My EA, Co. receiver is a fully legal pre-ban, and these notarized statements have absolutely no legal value whatsoever, but that didn't stop several potential buyers from demanding them for some stupid reason. Now listen carefully because I'm about to clue you in on how to determine whether a lower receiver is a pre-ban or not: What makes a lower receiver a pre-ban is the ATF says it's a pre-ban. PERIOD!! END OF STORY!!! This is what happened - When the ban went into effect the ATF actually visited all the licensed lower receiver producers and got lists of all serials they've used in the past to create the Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List, and also made a survey of any unbuilt lowers still in stock so those could be excluded from the list. Now this is the important part - any unbuilt lowers that had already been shipped ("in the wild" so to speak) were deemed to be pre-bans. Current or out-of-business manufacturers, it doesn't matter. All these lowers are on the ATF's Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List and are legally pre-ban guns. All this talk about "the lower had to have been built in X configuration by X date, yadda yadda" is pure bullshit and nothing but the inane ramblings of the clueless hoards who lurk around boards like this. You see, that criteria is not for us to use, but rather for the ATF to determine what's a pre-ban. It's not for me to decide, it's not for 2minkey to decide, and it's not for KMT to decide. The decision rests solely with the ATF, and they've already made up the list. Don't believe me? How about this - I send my old lower back to Olympic Arms and they "remanufacture" it for me, meaning they merely destroy it and stamp my serial on a brand new receiver. Now I own a lower receiver that was manufactured a week ago and has never been built, but it's still a legal pre-ban. Why? Because the ATF says it is, that's why. Here's another example that applies to me directly - I own a Sendra lower that's a pre-ban because Sendra (like EA Co. and a few others) went out of business before the ban. Five or 6 years ago, I stripped it down and sent it out to be re-anodized because the finish was dinged up. Now it's sitting in my gun safe looking like it did when it was brand new and you could never tell it had been built up and fired in the past. Am I in trouble? Do I have to prove this pristene lower is actually used? No, I don't have to prove anything, because that Sendra is on the Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List and it's still a legal pre-ban. Ok, KMT - you have an Olympic lower that's listed on the ATF's Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List, so it's a pre-ban. Period. Build it any way you want to, shoot it, have fun with it. Are you worried that it may [b]not[/b] be a pre-ban? That can [b]only[/b] happen if you contact the ATF and declare under penalty of perjury that you've never, ever built it up and ask them to please remove your serial number off the Magic List. And if you're going to do something that stupid, then you don't deserve to own guns in the first place. Now are you worried about whether it was built up before or not? How about this - isn't it possible that 10 or 12 years ago when you bought the lower, maybe you also bought a collapsible stock and screwed it onto the lower and that sat in the back of your closet for a few years? And then maybe a couple of years ago you removed it and sold the stock to some guy at a gun show? It happens all the time and is a very good case of reasonable doubt. And that's precisely why the ATF deemed with a wave of their administrative hand that all previously shipped lowers qualified as pre-bans. So, if you have a lower and you want to see if it's a pre-ban, there's only one way. And that's to check and see if the serial number is listed on the ATF's Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List. If it's there, it's a legal pre-ban, regardless of what some idiot on a bullitin board who has never even seen an ATF agent in real life before says.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 1:47:52 PM EDT
...check and see if the serial number is listed on the ATF's Magic Pre-Ban Serial Number List. If it's there, it's a legal pre-ban...
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Where does one get this magic list? Do you have to write them or is it posted someplace?
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 1:59:18 PM EDT
This subject is pretty well covered on this website, see the links below: [url]http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/preORpost.html[/url] Pre-Ban or Post-Ban: More Than Just A Date example: John Q. Public bought himself an AR-15 receiver in 1988 and put it in his safe. In April 1997, he decided to build it into a rifle. Was it a gun before The Date? No... so he has to build it into a POST-ban firearm. More information: [url] http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/[/url]
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 2:12:54 PM EDT
This is the exact sort of thing I find contradictory. THIS SITE has a link (www.ar15.com/content/legal/preORpost.html) that states categorically that in order for a lower receiver to be pre-ban it MUST be part of a SAW prior to the ban. THIS SITE has a link (www.ar15.com/content/docs/primer/) that says that if I can find a pre-ban lower on the market, that I can build a pre-ban AR from it - legally. So, which is correct?
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 2:30:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2003 2:31:28 PM EDT by Wingman26]
[url]http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/primer/[/url] Right at the top of that page it says:
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT A LOWER RECEIVER WITH SERIAL NUMBER WHICH DENOTES MANUFACTURING PRIOR TO SEPTEMBER 1994 DOES NOT NECESSARILY PERMIT YOU TO LEGALLY BUILD A RIFLE WITH PRE-BAN FEATURES! A LOWER RECEIVER MUST HAVE BEEN ASSEMBLED INTO A COMPLETE RIFLE PRIOR TO THE SEPTEMBER 1994 BAN AND THE MANUFACTURER MUST BE ABLE TO DOCUMENT THAT ASSEMBLY TO THE BATF IN ORDER TO QUALIFY AS A PRE-BAN LOWER RECEIVER!
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[b]The best advice is right below that:[/b]
Firearms Regulations Information: Please contact the BATF for any and all questions regarding Federal firearms regulations at 414-679-5040. For California firearms regulations information, contact the California Department of Justice at 800-952-5225.
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Link Posted: 11/10/2003 7:20:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By airgunner: Where does one get this magic list? Do you have to write them or is it posted someplace?
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I believe [url=http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/serialNumberList.html]this list[/url] is mostly correct, although from a quick glance I can already see mistakes in the Sendra section, so be careful.
Originally Posted By KMT: This is the exact sort of thing I find contradictory. [...] So, which is correct?
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This is what happens when you get legal opinions off of web pages. Geez, this web site is full of mistakes!! Unfortunately the page quoted by Wingman26 is wrong and written by an employee of Olympic Arms who, by definition, has to take the most conservative and cautious approach possible lest they be sued by someone who misinterpreted anything he says and gets in trouble. Corey Sattler has made the layman's mistake to thinking [b]he[/b] can determine what is a pre-ban. To quote the passage that Wingman26 holds so dear:
John Q. Public bought himself an AR-15 receiver in 1988 and put it in his safe. In April 1997, he decided to build it into a rifle. Was it a gun before The Date? No... so he has to build it into a POST-ban firearm.
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A lower receiver that was sold and has been sitting in someone's safe since 1988 has already been classified by the ATF as a pre-ban AW, and will remain so until the ATF legally changes it's status. So you can build it up any way you want. You can also send this same receiver back for "remanufacture" and they'll send you a brand new receiver that was manufactured a week ago, has never been built, but is still considered a pre-ban by the ATF solely due to the serial number. (Olympic and a few others do this.) Let me repeat this yet again because this is the most important point: [b]You[/b] cannot determine the pre-post status of an AR lower receiver. Only the ATF can do that. No one else. If you have a receiver that the ATF has already decided is a pre-ban, then it's a pre-ban and you can build it up as one. Wingman26 - next time instead of just parroting the same crap over and over, try thinking for your self for a change.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 7:48:44 PM EDT
You seem to have missed part of my post:
The best advice is right below that: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Firearms Regulations Information: Please contact the BATF for any and all questions regarding Federal firearms regulations at 414-679-5040. For California firearms regulations information, contact the California Department of Justice at 800-952-5225. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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