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Posted: 10/18/2003 9:45:28 AM EDT
Anyone built up one of these? Go here: www.ktordnance.com/kto/products.php

They seem pricey but they look like they might be a straightforward job: "Drill take down pin holes (2 req.), drill selector hole, drill fire control holes (2 req.), cut mag release slot, cut fork for the upper front take down pin, drill misc. detent pinholes, drill bolt catch hole and drill pistol grip hole."

Opinions, anyone? Thanks in advance...
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 11:09:40 AM EDT
I haven't seen one of KT's AR's, but I do have one of his 1911's and one of his sig 228's. Yes, his frames are a little more expensive, but you'll be pleased I'm sure. The 2 frames I got were almost to beautiful to drill/cut. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 6:55:35 PM EDT
They are beautiful pieces of work. Milled from a solid block of 6061-T6 aluminum, very easy to work with.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:35:01 AM EDT
I am curious why anyone would build on an 80% lower. Can anyone give me a reason? (lets not use "because its there") I can think of a lot of reasons not to. Thanks, John
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:37:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 5:39:21 AM EDT by neilfj]
1. I can customize it any way I want. 2. No serial number required by Feds (state law may require otherwise). 3. No paperwork required by Feds (4473) -- again, you have the state law thing though. 4. Its more fun and challenging than simply assembling it from parts. Now, what are your 'why-not' reasons?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 9:17:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 9:19:09 AM EDT by LarryLove]
Actually, gentlemen, I must respectfully request that this thread [b]not[/b] turn into a discussion on the pros or cons of 80% lowers. This has been discussed before many times and I see this thread turning into a big mess if it goes in that direction. I'm only trying to research the particular product mentioned above. Please start a new thread if you'd like to go another round on this topic. Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 9:54:52 AM EDT
This is fascinating... I like the idea of a build it yourself 228! Please let me know how your experience with KT Ord. goes? I'm suspect of buying stuff online. Also, where do I find the local restrictions? Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:52:54 AM EDT
Hit up Roderus Custom for more on building one. Check the forums, KT posts there. [url]http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com[/url]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 7:10:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil: Hit up Roderus Custom for more on building one. Check the forums, KT posts there. [url]http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com[/url]
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Thanks Prof, lots of great info there!
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 9:19:36 PM EDT
KT is a good guy and provides excellent customer service. He has promptly responded to my 3 emails while I (im)patiently wait for my 80% 1911.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:01:02 AM EDT
Your posting ask for opinions, but I see what you really want is validation of your decision to buy the product. I really do not care how your spend your money as long as it does not result in another welfare case because of bad financial judgement. (and I find state sponsored lottery in the same boat) So if you can afford it buy the 80% and go for it. In the end you wind up with a product that is inferior to a finished receiver (assuming you don't buy Hesse) at a much higher price (your time is worth something). There is a high probability that you will never finish the job. (unfinished kits of all kinds abound on E-bay and once this is past the 80% finished level you may not sell it so anything you do to finish the receiver makes it legally unsaleable) You are at risk of legal questioning anytime a law enforcement officer notes the lack of a serial number, you may not sell the completed gun, and avoiding a 4473 (be sure and check for state regulatlions) only counts if you are already forbidden from owning a firearm (in which case I cannot support this endevor in any fashion). With that said, I can support the "fun and challenging" aspects but be aware up front of the downsides. Of course, you can also customize a standard 100$ receiver anyway you want, after all, it is yours to do with as you please.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:14:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 5:47:10 PM EDT by LarryLove]
[Edited previous reply] Thanks very much for coming in on your high horse and taking the discussion off topic, even though I [b]very politely[/b] asked you not to in my second post above. It's clear to anyone that I've thought this through already and am now researching particular items. Now tell me about the particular product I asked about or kindly stay out of it.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:42:11 PM EDT
80% shit kicks ass. If you are good with your hands and can read a webpage, you can do it. I was a machinest for a long time. Once I get the space and money I am buying a milling machine and some 0% forgings [:)] Jdmcomp is wrong about a few things. [list] [*]You can sell an 80% weapon that has been completed. But it is a gray area of the law. ATF has never ruled on how many you can sell. I wouldnt sell more than 1 every few years.[/*] [*] Adding your own serial number to the weapon will solve the problem of LEO questioning. You arent breaking the law, so what is to worry about?[/*]
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 5:47:55 AM EDT
i started an 80% this past summer and to be honest... it is sitting unfinished on my bench. they are a great challange and a great headache at times. if you have the tools it is a good feeling to get one done. although the one thing better then 80% is to start with a block of aluminum and go from there. that was a great project for me to learn how to use my mill. something that alot of people question is there reliability... i would take mine up against any other manufacturer. if you have a mill you really should order the season one video from roderus. i got it and have viewed it so many times. good luck trevor
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 2:08:09 AM EDT
I had the opportunity while in New Hampshire to visit KT Ordnance, and watched as Rick milled my lowers out of T6 billet, then helped me complete them. It is really amazing to watch a receiver "appear" out of a block of aluminum! CNC machinery just makes it look so simple. He is a Class III manufacturer and does a bunch of other stuff besides these lowers, which is really just a side line for him, a way to help pay for his CNC mill. When I arrived he was finishing up a batch of very tiny little tubes for use in heart catheterization, so he's pretty good, at least I was impressed. In addition to AR-15/AR-10 lowers, he also makes 80% P226 frames, offers a 1911 frame with a slick tactical rail integrated into the dust cover, and is working on a version of the Beretta M9. This is a solid, competent and extremely honest guy who definitely knows what he's doing. I have pictures I took while making my lowers if anyone wants to post them. Since I was there in person, we went ahead and completed my lowers, but his 80% lowers are top notch. Very precisely made - CNC, after all - and all the holes are "spotted" so you'll have a much easier time finishing the lower. He can also program the mill to engrave stuff such as a name or ID number on your lower. I really can't say enough good things about the guy; I'd recommend his stuff to anybody and you absolutely don't have to worry about your money. Also, a few times a year he has "picnics" where he opens up the shop to anyone who wants to come up in person and make their own 100% lowers.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 3:21:23 AM EDT
Thanks for pointing this company out to me larryL, i'm going to order the AR receiver, i mean for $25 how can you go wrong?
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 3:24:31 AM EDT
whoops! i think i misread their codes for money. If i'm reading this correctly its $160!
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 12:42:00 AM EDT
In reading jdmcomp message, I realized that he has not taken the time to educate himself... :-)
Originally Posted By jdmcomp: (unfinished kits of all kinds abound on E-bay and once this is past the 80% finished level you may not sell it so anything you do to finish the receiver makes it legally unsaleable)
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You can sell a personally made firearm, but you cannot make it to sell- that is manufacturing. Read the regs as the lightly address your concern.
You are at risk of legal questioning anytime a law enforcement officer notes the lack of a serial number,
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There are a lot of guns without serial numbers. Legal and legitly owned. They were made before the 1960's. Anyone with a gun is ricking "legal questioning"...
you may not sell the completed gun
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Not true, read the regs.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 1:38:43 AM EDT
Could one of you guys please answer a question for me? I live about an hour away from KT and the idea of watching my own lower being "born" fascinates me. Booth mentioned that when he visited KT he completed his lowers, so does that mean the receiver was literally ready for parts to be bolted on? I'm not a machinist nor do I have access to a machine shop. However I am interested in putting together a few ARs. Can I go to KT and build a lower that is ready for a parts kit? Thanks in advance. I've never heard of this before and it's pretty intriguing.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 3:52:13 AM EDT
Guns, I yield in part. You probably can sell the unfinished receiver, hell, even the completed gun, but if it involves an FFL, you will not be able to sell it. No FFL in his right mind would touch it. (Of course, I have met plenty of FFLs that are not in their right minds, mostly at shows) Some states, such as Maryland or California require transfer through FFLs for "assault weapons". You will certainly loose lots of money on the sale, as you can never recover the investment (after all, the raw machining cost considerably more than a finished lower). I would not pay squat for a "homemade" rifle unless you name showed up in the index of many gun mags and then only a little more that squat. (Of course, there is always the ready black market) You will be liable for any damage the rifle may cause through use or misuse as a manufactor of the rifle. Once the 80% becomes 81% then the sale interstate will likely require transfer by an FFL so back to point one. The fact I am trying to make is that this is a really bad deal. Knowing that, if you really want to finish one, go right ahead. It is your money. Just expect to loose the whole investment.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 6:48:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: I live about an hour away from KT and the idea of watching my own lower being "born" fascinates me. Booth mentioned that when he visited KT he completed his lowers, so does that mean the receiver was literally ready for parts to be bolted on? I'm not a machinist nor do I have access to a machine shop. However I am interested in putting together a few ARs. Can I go to KT and build a lower that is ready for a parts kit?
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KT holds "BBQ's" 2-3 times a year, usually Spring/Summer/Fall where you bring your 80% and he'll help you finish it at no charge. (Small donation for food expenses is appreciated). There is a link on his website for BBQ dates, but last I checked, nothing has been scheduled for next year yet. At one time, he was willing to accept appointments outside of the BBQ dates, at an hourly rate where he will assist you in finishing your 80% using his equipment. You'd have to check with him to see if he is still doing this though. If your looking to watch him turn a block of steel/aluminum into a 80%, I don't know if he allows this as he only does a couple production runs a year (per model) and he's looking for high productivity and visitors may be more of a hinderence than a help.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 3:33:51 PM EDT
All I can add is the 80% 1911 frames KT offers are top notch. I bought one, and it was an easy operation to machine the slide rails on my home mill. Never heard anything bad about KT. I also have two 80% AR-15 frames I bought from Tannery shop. I've finished one, and am going to be doing the second very soon. Nothing like being able to say you personally machined and built the firearm. After that, I will try a $25 0% build, and eventually will mill a square block of aluminum into a functioning rifle. It's a win/win the way I look at it. Definately visit the Roderus forums. They are a great bunch of helpful people over there.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 5:45:52 PM EDT
The fact I am trying to make is that this is a really bad deal. Knowing that, if you really want to finish one, go right ahead. It is your money. Just expect to loose the whole investment.
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I don't mean to sound snobby, but since when is the cost of an AR considered a major "investment"? The novelty of building a one of a kind AR is worth far more to me than the grand or so that it will cost to configure one the way I want. Most people have an extra couple hundred bucks in their spare change jar. What's the big deal? As far as the cost of the basic lower reciever goes, you'd spend that for dinner and drinks at a decent restaurant. Why not have something unique and tangible for such a tiny amount of money? I guess it just bothers me when someone comes in and knocks a product based on the price, the quality, and the aggravation factor when in fact they aren't that expensive, you have no idea about the quality, and building it is half the fun...
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 8:49:13 PM EDT
Has anyone seen the 50% Sig 228 receivers? I saw these advertised several years ago. These were 2 completely machined halves, just needed to be welded together, also had accessory rail.
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