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Posted: 10/4/2003 8:01:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 8:02:20 AM EDT by wolffie]
Hey all,

I'm in the middle of my first build, and yesterday, I was at a local shop that had an AR pistol on the wall. It had a fairly short barrel, and what looked to be some sort of counterweight over the buffer tube. And I was wondering what the legality issues are in building one? I'm not abandoning my varminter project, but is it legal to build an AR pistol on a stripped lower? Is that a state by state issue? Especially since I don't need a pistol permit to buy a stripped lower...

And while I'm at it... Anyone ever use one? Looked like fun :)
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 8:45:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 8:46:25 AM EDT by Shadowblade]
You run into legal problems building one. 1. I'm not sure about the lower... You might have to have it registered as a pistol? 2. The final result has to be under 50 ounces to be a pistol. This is why the Bushmaster pistol is plastic and the Olympic Arms pistol has all those holes in it to reduce weight.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 9:19:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 9:29:21 AM EDT by edpmedic]
In NYS the lower has to be used only for that upper. It is registered as an AOW. I am in the middle of going through the process right now. That is for Nassau County. For the City of NY I am sure it could be done, but Thank G-D I don't have to. I am looking into the OA one. It doesn't, have the buffer tube sticking out the back. It is also a very light receiver. I think Bushmaster is going to have one. It might be their Carbon lineup if not mistaken. You should check with the officials in your state. edited.... [URL]http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html[/URL] You can also find parts kits also.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:18:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2003 4:19:03 PM EDT by DeathFRB]
You should find this very interesting! Info on the Bushmaster P97 Carbon 15 Pistol [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=171204[/url]
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 6:01:16 PM EDT
AOW in NYS? That is the first time I have heard that. edpmedic, you got any info on that?
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 7:02:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By celticfozzie: AOW in NYS? That is the first time I have heard that. edpmedic, you got any info on that?
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the only AOWS i have heard of being legal in NY are smooth bore ones like the Serbu shotgun. This rifled barrel one is interesting. Anyone have any ATF or NYState info on it
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 6:43:50 PM EDT
In Duncan Longs book The Complete AR15 Source Book, theres a couple of AR pistols that Tom Provost of a company called T.A.P. built. They're amazing looking, cause they have no buffer extension at all! From what I could gather,he used cut down carriers and sealed the buffer tube. I dont know how he did it! If you get a chance, check it out. Lots of info on this very topic. How to build one from a lower you already have?? Man, with all the restrictions(especially the weight now!) It would be pretty hard to do without severely chopping on an aluminum reciever. I guess thats why the Carbon/Bushy's are the wise choice for this. And I would think a re-registering of it would be the standard thing to do,since it will no longer be a rifle anymore. But I'm no dealer. Thats who'll have the direct answer for you. Talk with a NFA dealer. One of the many frequenting the board could probably help you with what paperwork you should get, etc.And look at the ATF website as well to read what the law states on this. Good luck with your varminter project!
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:20:25 AM EDT
Here is what an AOW looks like: [imAge]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/images/TBP/mvc00013.jpg[/image]
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 4:05:09 PM EDT
You cannot use a lower that was manufactured to be a rifle into a pistol. If you plan on building a rifle/pistol combo, you must use a lower that was manufactuered and documented as being a pistol lower. You can manufacture your own lower but it must be designated as a pistol. A pistol lower can be assembled as a rifle and then reassembled as a pistol (do NOT install the stock with a barrel shorter than 16"). A rifle lower cannot be assembled into a pistol. I know the logic is flawed, but aren't all firearm restrictions? I've done this using the AR-7 Exporer II pistol. Nice little backpack rifle/pistol combo.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 11:32:25 AM EDT
Hey guys, You can have AOW's in New York but it is not necessary to have an AR pistol, simply purchase one and register it on your permit. To build you must follow the AW ban and are limited to 50 ounces or less and no forward handgrip (float tube, handguards, forward grip), one thing to keep in mind, even if no replacement for the AW ban is enacted we still will have it here in New York thanks to George Pataki and company (I am a conservitive Republican but only voted for him once when he first ran, never again). You can build from any VIRGIN AR receiver, Federal law allows you to build a pistol on a rifle receiver as long as it was never assembled as a rifle, you can order a new receiver and have your dealer list it on the 4473 simply as a pistol frame although you will now have to register it on your permit and get a purchase permit to pick it up, from then on it is a pistol and New York State will always consider it as such. The biggest obstacle is getting under 50 ounces so in the end run you might as well shop around for a used Carbon 15 or a pre-ban if you can afford it. I owned a Carbon 15 for a while and it was an incredible firearm. By the way, here is a bonus, an AR pistol is legal now to hunt deer with in NY (any centerfire round in a handgun is allowed, even .25ACP if your nuts enough to try it), the barrel is short enough also that there is no round limit on the mag so you can use a 30 rounder if you wish. A .223 round in the neck or ear within 100 yards should drop a whitetail in its tracks. HTH Jeff
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 7:12:27 AM EDT
Are the rifle and pistol lowers the same,I mean are they physicaly the same part. If there was no restriction would you be able to use the same lower as you use for your AR-15 rifle with the same fire control group or does a pistol have a differnt lower & parts?
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 5:43:31 PM EDT
Same lower and internal parts with the exception of Carbon 15"s (pre Bushmaster), their pistol lowers will only accept their pistol uppers. As stated before you can build a pisotl using a rifle receiver as long as it has never been assembled as a rifle and had a butt stock attached, best way is to order a new lower and have your dealer paper it (on the 4473) as a pistol receiver, that way you have definitive proof that it was a new receiver and the intended use. Remeber though that the AW ban limits you to 50 or less ounces and no evil features to include any type of forward hand grip. Jeff
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 10:59:42 AM EDT
I just finished building my own POST-BAN AR-15 pistol last night. I used a Bushmaster stripped lower that I bought and received as a PISTOL RECEIVER, Model-1 type pistol buffer. I built this using a 300/221 (300 Fireball or 300 Whisper Clone) barrel built by Kurt of Kurt's Kustom at10.5-inches plus a Gem-Tech TPR-S Bi-Lock brake mounted. I built this WITH NO GAS TUBE (No gas port is even drilled), RRA Flattop upper receiver, Medium Long KAC FF RAS, KAC Bipod mount and Harris swivel Bipod. The PISTOL looks great and all I need to do now is buy a pistol scope and some new rings to take her deer hunting this fall. Now, why did I do this... 1. Non-SEMI Auto... Crime Bill Doesn't Apply so I finally have my AR-15 Pistol! 2. Here in PA we can not hunt with any Semi-Auto rifles or pistols, BUT I CAN USE A BOLT ACTION PISTOL! 3. If the Crime bill dies next year without replacement, all I need to do is mount a short AR-15 pistol length semi-auto upper and I have a legal semi-auto AR-15 pistol! I am planning to put it all together on a new webpage as I did everything from stripped parts to a complete pistol but I will try to post a pic here as who knows when I can get the webpage done? QB
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 11:47:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2003 11:55:43 AM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: I just finished building my own POST-BAN AR-15 pistol last night. I used a Bushmaster stripped lower that I bought and received as a PISTOL RECEIVER, Model-1 type pistol buffer. I built this using a 300/221 (300 Fireball or 300 Whisper Clone) barrel built by Kurt of Kurt's Kustom at10.5-inches plus a Gem-Tech TPR-S Bi-Lock brake mounted. I built this WITH NO GAS TUBE (No gas port is even drilled), RRA Flattop upper receiver, Medium Long KAC FF RAS, KAC Bipod mount and Harris swivel Bipod. The PISTOL looks great and all I need to do now is buy a pistol scope and some new rings to take her deer hunting this fall. Now, why did I do this... 1. Non-SEMI Auto... Crime Bill Doesn't Apply so I finally have my AR-15 Pistol! 2. Here in PA we can not hunt with any Semi-Auto rifles or pistols, BUT I CAN USE A BOLT ACTION PISTOL! 3. If the Crime bill dies next year without replacement, all I need to do is mount a short AR-15 pistol length semi-auto upper and I have a legal semi-auto AR-15 pistol! I am planning to put it all together on a new webpage as I did everything from stripped parts to a complete pistol but I will try to post a pic here as who knows when I can get the webpage done? QB
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[wow] [headbang] [headbang] [party] Can't wait for you to get the pics/site page up. Hummm....so this idea would work... -stripped lower papered as pistol -tube from the "entry stock", modifed so no stock can be attatched (ie drill out threads on screw hole) -single shot flat top upper 13" barrel (no gas tube or hole in barrel) Having the buffer and spring, the thing would load automatically when released, BUT requires manually pulling it back.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 4:06:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2003 4:16:54 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By Kaliburz: [wow] [headbang] [headbang] [party] Can't wait for you to get the pics/site page up. Hummm....so this idea would work... -stripped lower papered as pistol -tube from the "entry stock", modifed so no stock can be attatched (ie drill out threads on screw hole) -single shot flat top upper 13" barrel (no gas tube or hole in barrel) Having the buffer and spring, the thing would load automatically when released, BUT requires manually pulling it back.
View Quote
Yup... I have seen guys shooting NRA Highpower matches with AR-15 Spaceguns with no gas tube as it turns the AR-15 into one FAST straight pull bolt action when you actually add a bolt handle! Now, I am not adding a handle yet, but I will later... I should add, with the pistol, I will simplt mill a slot on the left side of the flattop receiver and then drill and tap a hole into my carrier. Then, simply fabricate a bolt handle and I will have a bolt action upper everybit as good as an XP-100 but I can pull the upper off (WHEN THE CRIME BILL DIES) and replace this upper with a semi auto upper for the fun factor as well! Here are some pics... [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/pbar15pistol01.jpg[/img] [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/pbar15pistol03.jpg[/img] [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/pbar15pistol04.jpg[/img] [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/pbar15pistol05.jpg[/img] Only problem I had is my new RRA flattop upper has a broken spring for the action cover. I have about 200-300 photos I need to cut down for the website that show how this was build from stripped out parts.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 6:50:19 PM EDT
very nice...
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 8:03:55 PM EDT
Hmmmmmmm, now you got me thinking...if I had a pistol upper with a steel picatinny gas block, and I removed the gas tube and put a plug weld in the hole, would that be legal? Or would I also have to maybe put a weld over the screw(s) that clamp the gas block down? That would be a cool setup with the sidecocking upper and the folding cocking piece welded in the open position. Awesome pistol btw!!! Ghillie
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:52:42 AM EDT
I did an upper like this a few years back except for hunting and it was a 26-inch Bushmaster V-match upper... I had a gam commissioner officer stop me but I explained the gun to him and he left me hunt (again no semi autos in PA for hunting).... I went this way as PA requires the change to me perminant and it made it so I didn't need a gas block... Now, there is no requirement in the federal law that says a change must be perminant... As long as it is not a semi-auto with a detachable magazine then the crime bill wouldn't apply....
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 8:48:06 AM EDT
Sweet! I think I've just found my next build. But......DANGIT Quarterbore, you just spent my Christmas bonus for me, and I haven't even got it yet! [jump] Ghillie
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 4:35:29 PM EDT
I live in Westerchester Co. I bought a virgin lower...had it registered as a pisol and built it....I removed the gas tube and use it as a bolt action single shot...until I can figure out the 50 oz problem...the lower is a DPMS and my permit lists it as a Panther Arms cal .223
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:01:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2003 5:06:18 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
I have been kicking this problem around for almost 10-years as I always wanted an AR-15 pistol but after the crime bill the prices kept climbing and it wasn't that important to me... I have a webpage that I have had set up for quite some time and you can see it here... [url]http://quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html[/url] Now, remember that if the crime bill dies by so much as ONE HOUR and you have a semi-auto upper handy or you do this in a way that you can replace a gas block or gas tube, then you can convert this to a legal semi-auto pistol! This is a Bolt Action due to current laws, if the law changes this pistol will change! I have an M-16 on transfer and I fully intend to have an extra NFA length upper handy for just the minute the crime bill dies.... But I still want this upper for hunting here in PA where I can not use a semi-auto to hunt deer!
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:30:10 PM EDT
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