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Posted: 9/23/2003 4:52:19 PM EDT
i was just wansering what the difference between a m16 and a ar15 reciever or is there no difference at all
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:06:01 PM EDT
lowers? typically one little hole.... [;)]
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:09:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:09:52 PM EDT
Yes, there is a difference. Not counting the licensing, NFA registry, paperwork, and other issues, physically there is one significant difference, and that is the addition of a single hole in the lower receiver. This hole is centered over the fire control selector, and holds the pivot pin for the autosear. With the fire control selector pointed vertically, it points straight at this extra hole and pin. No other differences. CJ
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:38:44 PM EDT
Hmmmmmmm! Someone's "trollin'".
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:00:00 PM EDT
More than just a sear hole, the inside on the M16 is machined quite differently than any AR-15.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:13:01 PM EDT
thanks just wondering
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:17:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MADM16A1: More than just a sear hole, the inside on the M16 is machined quite differently than any AR-15.
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Not in the ones I've seen! And yes, I'm talking about the internals, and they were made that way, not converted later. CJ
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:56:10 AM EDT
Keebler elves that make the bullets come out really fast
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 6:23:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 6:26:27 AM EDT by rxdawg]
About $7500 if its legal. 10 years if it isnt. Take your pick. The only physical difference is an autosear hole and full auto fire control parts.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 10:16:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 2:04:58 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
You know what, this question gets asked every six months or so and we see the duck and roll answers above... You were given the answer and the differences have to do with different milling of the internals of the lower and one extra hole drilled for the auto sear. From there, the fire contol parts are different including the carrier, hammer, disconect, trigger, selector, PLUS the auto sear that is only in an M-16... Here are a few pics that will help... [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/nfa-ar-m16-01.jpg[/img] [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/nfa-ar15rr-01.jpg[/img] [img]http://quarterbore.com/images/nfa-ar15rr-02.jpg[/img] Now, ignoring the posts above, the difference between an AR-15 and M-16 lower is more accurately described as posted and shown. The price for an AR-15 lower is about $90 or so for many stripped ones as opposed to about $7000 or more for a transferable M-16 lower. If you want more information, please see [url]http://quarterbore.com/ar15m16/index.html[/url] where I describe a few other items of scarry topic to the forum including the Lightning Link and Drop In Auto Sear (DIAS). Now, I should add that there is a difference in SOME Upper receivers that make some receivers only work with an AR-15 and not the M-16... [img]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/uppers/searrelief_ar15_m16.jpg[/img] The extra cut is needed to allow the GI Auto sear to function. Now, if you drill that single little hole for the GI Autosear in your lower receiver, you have made an illegal Machinegun and you can spend 10-years in jail and $100,000 in fines and make a really good friend named "Bubba"...
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 10:19:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Not in the ones I've seen! And yes, I'm talking about the internals, and they were made that way, not converted later. CJ
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Ummm look at the pics above and let me know if you see the differences... The sear just won't work with ANY AR-15 without additional milling...
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 12:30:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Originally Posted By MADM16A1: More than just a sear hole, the inside on the M16 is machined quite differently than any AR-15.
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Not in the ones I've seen! And yes, I'm talking about the internals, and they were made that way, not converted later. CJ
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Well, apparently you haven't seen much.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 12:32:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rxdawg: About $7500 if its legal. 10 years if it isnt. Take your pick. The only physical difference is an autosear hole and full auto fire control parts.
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Funny, people responding to topics they know little about.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:17:25 PM EDT
A picture says a thousand words [:)]. All NFA rules apply! [;)]
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:37:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 2:41:02 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
The internal components are different, but the internal millwork in an M16 lower is not different in any way from an original Colt SP1 lower or from a current generation Bushmaster lower, excepting only the extra hole for the autosear. I have made a very close examination of several registered lowers with the disconnector pin hole from the factory. One is a former Air Force early generation M16 which is actually marked AR-15, and has the 3 prong flash hider. It's that early. I have a familiarity with the lower receiver that only someone who has actually studied its features for the purpose of milling one out from a raw forging can have, and yes, I have indeed milled out such a receiver from a raw forging, though I've only done legal semiauto versions. I can practically quote the internal dimensions from memory. If you believe that what I say is not true, then post information that supports this. To put it nicely, produce or remain silent. CJ
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:36:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 4:38:25 PM EDT by MADM16A1]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: The internal components are different, but the internal millwork in an M16 lower is not different in any way from an original Colt SP1 lower or from a current generation Bushmaster lower, excepting only the extra hole for the autosear. To put it nicely, produce or remain silent. CJ
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I suggest you examine quartebore's pictures a little closer before you loose any more credibilty. I wrote what I wrote because I own an original M16A1, a converted SP1, and have owned many AR15's in the past. I have assembled, dissasembled, refinished, and refurbished my lowers a hundred times and I am perfectly familiar with their internals. I will not even ask you to "produce or remain silent" because there is nothing for you to produce.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:00:07 PM EDT
OK, you've convinced me. Odd, that the photos you've posted weren't visible when I posted my last comments. Or I wouldn't have posted them. They must have been posted as I was writing that last reply. It's all I can think of. CJ
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:36:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
Originally Posted By rxdawg: About $7500 if its legal. 10 years if it isnt. Take your pick. The only physical difference is an autosear hole and full auto fire control parts.
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Funny, people responding to topics they know little about.
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[red]Hypothetical:[/red] I mill an AR15 lower to M16 specs internally but I [b]do not[/b] drill the autosear hole. I use semi fire control parts to reassemble. Do I possess a legal semi AR15 receiver or an illegal conversion? My understanding has been that the [i]legal[/i] distinction is the autosear hole and FA fire control parts, not the internal millwork. If I am wrong about this I would like to know, and have a link to legal documentation. I am well aware of the millwork required to perform a conversion. Sorry to confuse you by using 'physical difference' instead of 'legal difference'. Enthrall me with your wisdom, and dont forget to provide the link!
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:12:27 AM EDT
It is the hole for the autosear that makes it illegal if it's not a registered receiver. The other milled clearance cuts aren't a legal issue. If you really want them, you can have them, but that's not to say that someone wouldn't at least TRY to say that it's evidence of intent to construct an illegal machinegun. If those cuts aren't in your receiver, it's not going to do you any good to have them installed unless they're necessary for clearance for your registered drop-in autosear. CJ
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:36:50 AM EDT
I agree that there is nothing in the law to say you couldn't do it and I have read people claiming that they had done the milling so that in a SHTF situation they could drill the little hole and install the parts... Well, if you have the parts and the lower is milled to M-16 configuration I have LITTLE DOUBT that it would get you into trouble even if the hole wasn't drilled...
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:48:14 AM EDT
as i understand the law, if you have and ar-15 in your posession, it is illegal to have ANY fire control parts that could be used to convert it to full auto fire... these would include the FA (ie: m-16) hammer, bolt carrier, etc... it is also my understanding that unless you are the proud owner of a registered sbr, it is also illegal for you to posess a barrel or complete upper of less than 16 inches... the law regarding these two issues applies to simply owning or being in posession of these items AND an ar-15... they dont even need to be assembled, just having the parts is enough to land you in deep caca... it IS legal, however, to own both sbr barrels and uppers, and FA conversion parts, as long as you do not also own an ar-15 rifle!!! why one would have parts for an ar-15 and no ar-15 is completely beyond me, but there you go... so sayeth the law, at least by my meager understanding... feel free to correct me if you can support it with some documentation...
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:09:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rxdawg: Sorry to confuse you by using 'physical difference' instead of 'legal difference'. Enthrall me with your wisdom, and dont forget to provide the link!
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Don't be silly now. You know you wrote "The ONLY difference..." I never brought up anything about legalities, neither did the person asking the original question.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:22:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By manghu67: it is also my understanding that unless you are the proud owner of a registered sbr, it is also illegal for you to posess a barrel or complete upper of less than 16 inches...
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That's a new one on me. Can you point me to something that backs that up? I believe you, I'd just like to see some reference to that which I can file for my records. CJ
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:38:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 4:50:58 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Originally Posted By manghu67: it is also my understanding that unless you are the proud owner of a registered sbr, it is also illegal for you to posess a barrel or complete upper of less than 16 inches...
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That's a new one on me. Can you point me to something that backs that up? I believe you, I'd just like to see some reference to that which I can file for my records. CJ
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Well, I don't beleive you will find it in writing as there are plenty of legal uses for these parts... In my case I have a 11-inch 300 whisper upper at home... I don't have a MG or SBR but I do have an AR-15 pistol lower... Now, any semi-auto (or even full auto) can be used with a post-ban AR-15 pistol lower SO LONG AS YOU REMOVE THE GAS TUBE. Removal of the gas tube makes a charging handle operated bolt action pistol... So, do you also need to have a Pistol Receiver in order to be allowerd to have a Pistol Barrel? Well, that might be the case but boy would that be a tough one for the BATFE to win in court... I use the logic that if I have a legal legitimate use for this part and the part itself is not controlled by a law then I can own it if I want! Now, I don't have M-16 parts as #1 I have no use for them and #2 I can't think of many legit legal uses for them as I don't own an M-16. Short barrels, well that just isn't the same thing IN MY OPPINION as there is a legal and letitimate use for these parts. Perhaps the BATFE would dissagree so use your own judgement as I am no attorney, but could someone that owns a T/C Contender rifle be locked up because he bougt a T/C Pistol barrel planning to buy a T/C Pistol receiver? It would be one hell of a fight in court if the BATFE tried to go for it...
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:47:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 9:16:20 PM EDT by manghu67]
good points, quarterbore... you make a compelling argument too... i suppose if you already had a pistol, you could put whatever the hell upper you wanted on it... cmjohnson: uhhhhhh... where did i put that link? [:\] when i was researching legal stuff, i ran across some documentation regarding the whole sbr thing... perhaps my mind is going south on me and im lumping short barrels together with fire control parts, but i couldve sworn i saw something to that effect... i could be wrong, though... which reminds me... some guy off these forums sent me an email regarding my m4gery blow up (its in here if you check the last day or so) saying that my hammer is an m16 hammer... now, i did some research, and it sure as shit looks (well, the one in my pics anyway) like a plain old ar-15 hammer to me... this cat said he could get my rifle to go FA in a matter of minutes... that really freaked me out (that is NOT the kind of trouble i need right now)... so somebody please tell me, is that or is that no an ar-15 hammer? oops! that guy didnt say it was an m16 hammer, he said it had a rounded face like someone built the rifle to go FA... now correct me if im wrong, but dont all hammers have sort of a rounded face?
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:49:06 AM EDT
People that don't know what they are talking about will give you stupid little tricks to make a AR shoot full auto... Some of these tricks may work every know and then for 2, 3, or 4 shots befor stopping. Problem is that in the process you may blow up your gun and screwing with it could land you in jail... Some of the tricks involve things like removing the disconect... The MYTH is that without the disconect and having a rounded hammer like you describe what you can get is a hammer that follows the carrier to produce a slam fire type auto fire. Problem is that with the hammer following the carrier there is no contol over the timing of the weapon and you risk a KABOOM amd it would not be reliable at all. Worse yet, it may work once in-a-while and they you have an illegal MG so you could go to jail for something that just won't work for beans anyway... So, in my oppinion, you have nothing to worry about and I believe your hammer is actualy the type of hammer you need to work with a 9mm carrier. As for anybody stupid enough to try this... I hope you enjoyed your fingers and head and even perhaps your freedom as this is a stupid trick to try!
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:41:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 8:47:51 AM EDT by manghu67]
quarterbore: i checked out the guy who sent me the email... he is a title II manufacturer and a retailer of nfa weapons... i suppose he probably knows more than i about that sort of thing, but i could be wrong... slam fire = danger... take it from me, after having a new, perfectly in spec rifle blow up in my hands, anyone who would be stupid enough to try a stunt like that deserves what they get (ie: kissing hands and face goodbye)... if a new rifle can KB, think what could happen if you start mucking around with the internals... not good... and totally idiotic...
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