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Posted: 9/11/2003 6:25:50 AM EDT
Our unit is headed back overseas soon and the Army still does not have pistols or M4s for our unit. Because of this we will be allowed to purchase our own pistols and modify our M16’s to make a more compact and useable weapon for our mission. Last time I ended up carrying an AKS-74U Shorty and Makarov pistol most of the time. I don’t just have a ton of money, but after researching things, and considering the sky is not the limit, I have come up with the following ideas and questions.
Put a collapsible stock on the M16 lower. Get a 16” Upper with a Fobus Handguard with Vertical Grip, add a clicker light with a WFM mount and finish with an Aimpoint CompM2.
Some questions. Who makes a good solid collapsible stock? Which light should I get that can use a clicker tail cap? I have a standard G2 right now as my carry light that I like well enough. Flat-top or not? At first I was leaning towards the Flat-top with the Aimpoint and backup iron sites attached because it appeared as though that put the Aimpoint in the most natural site position. I started thinking that I might not want to get a Flat-top since most of the guys I operate next to might have standard M16s. If they have to grab my weapon in a fight I don’t want them hesitating due to being unfamiliar with the setup. I am probably reading too much into that one. Also, what about using a 16” Dissipator? It seems I would have more room to place the Vertical Grip and Flashlight in a position that might be more comfortable as far as my hold. One last thing, would there be any issues using the Bolt Carrier group from the M16?
Let me know what you think would be a useful and comparable setup to what I have tried to describe. Any advice is welcome. Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:38:21 AM EDT
Lots of questions in one post.[:)] For the stock, handguards, grip, foregrip, and maybe even an upper assembly, check with the guys at [url]cavalryarms.com[/url]. They have a purchase program for military going overseas. Good luck, stay safe and keep your head down.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 1:01:25 PM EDT
I was always under the impresion that modifications to government issued M16's were strictly forbidden unless performed by the armory. Who's to tell what kind of reliability problems will come up if personnel are directed to feel free to modify their government issued M16's?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 1:46:36 PM EDT
We buy the parts and our Unit Armorer he will make the modifcations and conduct testing. I know it all sounds crazy, but exceptions to policy are being made on many things because of all the equipment shortages in the Military right now.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 2:45:03 PM EDT
The dissapator isn't a bad option so long as you realize it's HEAVY. The barrel is a full profile HBAR. Can you still get a preban dissapator--haven't checked Bushy's web site lately? For a low cost option, if your unit armorer can change out barrels and use your upper, call Bushmaster or RRA, tell them what your situation is, and order anything you want. Most of their barrel assemblies, less upper, are around $200. With a new barrel (chrome lined) and a collapsable stock, you'll be set. I'd buy the RRA or Bushy M4 stock. Do not buy one of the $50 cheapies--they break. I'd recommend against a flat top uppper unless you are sure you can use issue optics--it's too expensive to buy your own. Hard to believe the Clinton years let our equipment get into such bad condition that troops have to buy their own.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:06:24 PM EDT
You might want to look at both the Aimpoint and the EOTech sighting systems, and choose which one will best fit your duties on the ground.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 2:47:45 AM EDT
In reference to modifying issue M16s, a company commander in my battalion asked CID if it was legal to put a personally owned M4 upper on an issue M16. He wants to carry an M4 along with his 9MM in Iraq. CID said there were no requlations against it. He also asked JAG and JAG recommended against it as some soldiers did make M4s out of M16s and had problems as the manifest showed the serial number belonging to an M16 not an M4. Jag didn't say it was illegal, just recommended against it. I recommended he just carry the extra M4 upper and butt stock with him and make the change after we hit the ground. The armorer can put on the buffer tube. The rest can be put on by the soldier. If you make your M16 look like an issue M4, you won't get any hassles from anal CSMs or officers about your configuration.
Link Posted: 9/13/2003 5:52:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER: In reference to modifying issue M16s, a company commander in my battalion asked CID if it was legal to put a personally owned M4 upper on an issue M16. He wants to carry an M4 along with his 9MM in Iraq. CID said there were no requlations against it. He also asked JAG and JAG recommended against it as some soldiers did make M4s out of M16s and had problems as the manifest showed the serial number belonging to an M16 not an M4. Jag didn't say it was illegal, just recommended against it. I recommended he just carry the extra M4 upper and butt stock with him and make the change after we hit the ground. The armorer can put on the buffer tube. The rest can be put on by the soldier. If you make your M16 look like an issue M4, you won't get any hassles from anal CSMs or officers about your configuration.
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Not the US Army I was ever part of. Thank you Bill Clinton, and an especial thanks to the Army Ordnance officers who conspired with Colt to make it an M4 Army, so Colt could get the business back. May you all rot in Hell [;D]
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 3:14:51 AM EDT
Better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 6:48:45 PM EDT
Posession of privately owned weapons on deployment or in the field will get you an Article 15. Modification to the configuration of your primary weapon will get you one as well. Unless the Army has changed 180 degrees in the last 2 years after I retired, none of what you described is authorized. You can buy an optic to add to your M-16 A2 but you are not going to be allowed to change the upper, lower, or anything else. Sorry to kill the fantasy but there it is. DG 1SG, US Army (Ret)
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:03:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2003 7:11:34 PM EDT by Ghost-Shooter]
OK, how is it the most powerful military in the world is lacking small arms? I mean, I thought overall the cheapest weapon (per soldier basis) would be the standard rifle. Maybe not a pistol for everybody, but at least a rifle. This has got to be the most stupid beauracratic screw up. And there they were, wanting to "demilitarize" 300,000 M14s. Why not just use those if they are too stingy to purchase new M16s and M4s? I think the guv'ment is subscribing too much to the "It will be the day when our schools get all the books it needs and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber" mentality. Dumb asses. Also, IMHO, get a complete M4 or Lightweight FT upper from Bushie, and the ARMS #40 as well. If your buddie picks up your weapon and can't figure out the Aimpoint, he could just flip up the #40 and use it. As far as handguards, I think you should really consider the RAS or the SIRS. The Fobus is cute for us armchair commandos, but I don't really think its gonna cut it "out there". I've handled one, and I was afraid of breaking it just holding it, much less actually test it. Oh, pistols: I vote 1911 with 6-8 Wilson Combat 47D mags. Close second, Beretta 92FS with 2 dozen new, OEM Beretta mag springs. Reasoning: if you are gonna use the M9, there are bound to be bunches of the 15 round mags around, but most likely the spring will suck, so you can just swap it out. And trade the remainder of the 2 dozen [:D]. Ghost
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:33:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2003 8:34:31 AM EDT by TANGOCHASER]
101ABN327 In order to get an ART 15, a soldier has to violate an Article under the UCMJ. There are no regulations specifically prohibiting the changing of an upper receiver or butt stock on an M16. Even ART 134 (the catch all) doesn't apply unless someone in the chain of command issues an order not to make any modifications to an issue M16. Did you ever think to ask CID or JAG if modifying an M16 was in violation of the UCMJ or any known regulation while you were on active duty? I didn't either until one of my company commanders went asking. As I stated, [b]CID said there is no regulation against it and JAG didn't say it was illegal just didn't recommend it, and only because of manifest problems.[/b] Yes, privately owned firearms in a combat zone are banned specifically by one or more direct or general orders. An upper is not a firearm. I am aware of the reg that says you can't use civilian ammo in military weapons without, I think, MACOM authorization. What is the specific regulation or article of the UCMJ you are using to make the assertion that it is illegal to swap uppers? Hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll admit it as I don't know every regulation. Hell, I used to think using a .50 cal on personnel was against the Geneva Convention until I read the entire document.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:28:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2003 10:29:29 AM EDT by NomadGSF]
[red]Look, the regs specify that you can't make a destructive or permanent modification to your weapon. For example, if I hacked off the carrying handle to put on a sight rail, I'd be guilty of destruction of gov't property. If I were to remove the flash suppressor in order to cut boar's teeth in the barrel, I'd be guilty of destruction of gov't property as well as violating the Law of War (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one). On the flip side, if I make a temporary mod, i.e. changing upper receivers, or adding a REMOVABLE sighting system, then it is neither destructive, nor permanent, and not in violation of any reg, order or policy. I have a question for 101ABN327: How many of your soldiers changed uppers with each other? How would you know? As long as they turned a complete weapon in, and the serial number on the LOWER matched the paperwork, then you wouldn't, and it's not a permanent modification. Let's be real, I don't recommend it unless you can verify that the headspace is set right, but in all honesty, can you really do anything about it?[/red] [dracula]
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:47:41 PM EDT
OK, if there is no regulation against switching out an upper, you are definately held accounable for what you were issued in the arms room. If Airborne Warrior wants to carry around an M-16 A2 butstock and upper receiver group in his ruck sack for accountability purposes, I guess that is fine. Although not practical. I'm thinking if the Army doesn't have pistols and M-4's for Airborne Warrior's unit, I'd wager they are not authorized them by TO&E. By the way, what type unit are you in? What is your MOS, branch and component? If you want the cool gear, do a 4187 and ask to serve in the units that get it issued. If you want an M-4, just about all the combat arms units in 18th Airborne Corps have them, but that is where the work is as well. You can't have it all. Combat is a serious matter, not a photo op.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 1:17:39 PM EDT
This sounds like a very reasonable unit that is concerned for the safety and efficiency of their solders. My brother-in-law just deployed to Bagdad with his MP unit. Although they had M9s, they were still issued M16-a2s. Up to this point his missions (Military Police) has mostly involved raids on houses (close quarters) and Humvee patrol, continually getting in and out of a Humvee. To me, issuing an MP unit that is performing missions like this an M16 is very poor judgement. We all know the limitations. It's too bad his unit didn't give them the option to make there weapons more up-to-task (being an MP unit they are suppose to have M4s but they are National guard and there just aren't enough to go around). That said. My suggestion to Airborne warrior would be to get a bushmaster low profile m4 barrel, flattop with an Eotech, and flip up or fixed detachable rear sight. A RAS would be ideal but might be out of your price range. You could try an m33 with vert grip and light and if it didn't hold up just switch back to the standard hanguards (could use the m33 on bottom and standard on top, then you'd have a backup set). Bushmaster or RRA 6-pos collapsible stock. No issues with the bolt carrier group. Good luck and stay safe.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 2:19:41 PM EDT
Most of what you will be doing is carrying the rifle. Why would you want to muck up the weight of the rifle with all that high speed junk when your not in a high speed unit. High speed units get the stuff they need? Carry the pencil thin M16 A1 if available. Side arms are not std. issue either. If you need something the government will provide you with it. It's just not in your job description. Why would you worry about optics confusing your fellow soldier then carry an AK which would be totally imcompatible with them. If you carried that rifle you could not even get spare mags and ammo from your dead buddies. Why would you carry a handgun that was not compatible with available issue weapons around you?
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 3:02:56 PM EDT
I still find the whole AKS-U/Makarov weapon of choice thing far fetched. I know I let my troops pick up and carry anything they wanted to, NOT! When you are issued a rifle you are not issued a receiver, you are issued a weapon. I don't know of anyone who ever changed the configuration of his weapon in the 22 years I was in the Infantry, (ie M-16 to M-4). You are issued a weapon, you train with it and you don't swap out the upper group with your buddy. Soldiers added non issue telescopic sights in Gulf War I, but this was not a change in configuration, it was still an M-16 A2. Did I know of any of my soldiers changing uppers to fool their leadership? Well, let's see, since that is the part with YOUR zero on it why would anyone do that? I think this guy is on an airsoft fantasy. If you want to be an "Airborne Warrior", go to jump school and live it. You will even get an M-4, and your buddies will not be confused by the M-68 CCO... Cheers!
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 3:55:44 PM EDT
Wow, I did not mean to start such a storm. Let me clear some things up. All you conventional Army guys have no idea how things work outside the conventional side of things. I have dealt with the 101(327 even) and 82 and their world is totally different from the Special Operations side of the house. Yes I am already Airborne and have been for some time. Yes and this may surprise you, I am a Reservist. Yes I have cleared caves, been in ambushes, set ambushes, seen friends and enemies and innocents die and yes I do have wounds to show for it. I have worked both the Special Operations and Conventional side of the military. I have learned that when someone says it cannot be done in the military, that is the conventional soldier talking. No offense meant. Yes things have changed over the last two years in the military. I guess it is those same attitudes that keeps my unit from getting the equipment we need. You know what the Army said when we asked for M-4s or Pistols and Night Vision and Body Armor and up-to-date Commo? They said we already had them. Our TO&E does show many things we have never been issued, but I am sure it looks good on paper on some Officers Power Point slide. Thanks for everyone’s advice and I meant to offend no one nor start such a storm.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 5:05:49 PM EDT
Which Group? Guard or Reserve? It strikes me as odd that SOCOM will not issue the TO&E items it takes to do your mission! I have a friend from the Colorado ANG who just got back from Afghanistan his unit had everything they were supposed to have. He worked the OPNS Center and still had all the high speed gear that was issued on the teams. He is an 18D. If your Commander is letting someone at SOCOM roll over him, at the expense of the unit, he needs to get out of SF.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 6:28:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2003 6:35:42 PM EDT by NomadGSF]
Originally Posted By 101ABN327: OK, if there is no regulation against switching out an upper, you are definately held accounable for what you were issued in the arms room. If Airborne Warrior wants to carry around an M-16 A2 butstock and upper receiver group in his ruck sack for accountability purposes, I guess that is fine. Although not practical. I'm thinking if the Army doesn't have pistols and M-4's for Airborne Warrior's unit, I'd wager they are not authorized them by TO&E. By the way, what type unit are you in? What is your MOS, branch and component? If you want the cool gear, do a 4187 and ask to serve in the units that get it issued. If you want an M-4, just about all the combat arms units in 18th Airborne Corps have them, but that is where the work is as well. You can't have it all. Combat is a serious matter, not a photo op.
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I see, now we have to get into the mocking part of it. OK. At least I looked in the regs instead of making a snap judgement. As for my MOS, I'm a 13M, former 13B, and if you want a grid square destroyed call me, til then dry up and blow away. Oh, yeah, the MLRS Bn in 18th ABN BDE has 2 M4s per battery, nice try.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:22:26 AM EDT
AirborneWarrior, I didn't pay attention to your original post when you said you have been given the ok to modify your M16. This makes my argument with 101ABN327 irrelevant. I suggest you get a Bushmaster 1/7 or 1/9, 14.5" Bushmaster, M4 upper. I suggest a Cav Arms collapsible butt stock as it is good quality and cheaper than a Bushmaster. I am looking at an EOTECH for optics myself as they have good feed back from Iraq and Afganistan. I'm going to try a front grip and see if it is worth the cost. 101ABN327, I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I started out having a difference of opinion with you and you lost your military bearing and immediately resorted to a personal attack. I will post a picture of myself in Kosovo with my converted M16/M4 I carried while deployed last year as soon as I find the disc I stored it on. I used a Bushmaster 1/9, M4 upper and a Cav Arms butt stock and hand guards in OD green. I did not get an article 15 and my whole chain of command knew I made the modification. (It ain't airsoft and it ain't fantasy.) This is Rocket 2 November, OUT.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 11:09:34 AM EDT
Right! Cav stock would be good. You could also get a couple sets of Cav handguards and a rail for the bottom to mount your grip and light. That would be cheap, light and fairly strong. Love to see those pics TANGOCHASER!
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 1:02:26 PM EDT
I'm intertested in that pic as well. Didn't know 18 Airborne Corps had been chopped to a Brigade. 2 years is a long time away. Now SF units have to arm themselves? If there are any 18 series folks out there, feel free to join the fray. Since obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about, and the new POI at Ft. Benning ANCOC must say "anythings goes" I'd suggest do what makes you feel good.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:33:15 PM EDT
OK, 101ABN327, I am in a type of unit (MLRS) that I am in isn't in the 18th Airborne Corps, it is only in the 18th ABN BDE. You do remember that there was another Brigade on Bragg, don't you?
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 8:00:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 8:09:41 AM EDT by TANGOCHASER]
Here's my pictures from Kosovo. My Bushmaster/M4 conversion, Eagle enhanced LBV, Eagle SAS holster, standing next to a Hesco barrier at the airfield at Camp Bondsteel, July 2002. [img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?shopperid=M84JGTME04CE8N5XNKB1X3RGLQGS1F0A&userid=PutnamW&album_id=156253&image_id=0[/img] This is the best photo I have of my upper and green stock set on my issue M16A2 lower. [img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?shopperid=M84JGTME04CE8N5XNKB1X3RGLQGS1F0A&userid=PutnamW&album_id=156253&image_id=1[/img] Here's me shooting a Colt SMG that belongs to the US Embassy security personnel in Skopje, Macedonia. The range is at Camp Able Sentry, outside Skopje. I was fortunate enought to be the guy who got the range certified so we could use it while we were there. [img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?shopperid=M84JGTME04CE8N5XNKB1X3RGLQGS1F0A&userid=PutnamW&album_id=156253&image_id=2[/img] And I didn't get an Article 15 or any other disciplinary action. I did get a lot of questions on the cost of the stock set and upper.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 1:20:40 PM EDT
I keep reading the reply's to this and have to give my .02cents. I just got back from Iraq 6 weeks ago. We had lots of people who had personal weapons that they brought from home. A matter of fact, several of the Majors, Lt. Col., and Col. were carring 45's and thier issued 9mm's both at the same time. There is a huge shortage of weapons over there right now, I had to carry a AK for almost 2 months when my M4 stopped working. Just my observation.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:35:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By victor3ranger: There is a huge shortage of weapons over there right now, I had to carry a AK for almost 2 months when my M4 stopped working.
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That is a damn shame. That makes me mad and I am a civvy. That should not be freakin happening. [furious]
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