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Posted: 8/28/2003 3:24:02 PM EDT
What are the pro's and con's of a chrome lined barrel? And is it worth the extra money?
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 4:42:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2003 4:43:52 PM EDT by Homo_Erectus]
My advice is only buy a chrome-lined barrel if you want your AR to function correctly all the time. If that's not important to you, then don't worry about it. [:D] [Edited to ficks speling misteaks.]
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 5:31:03 PM EDT
go CHROME! Chrome is harder, easier to clean, and lasts longer. The only downside is that it will not be as accurate as steel. However, it is ALMOST as accurate. Chrome is, overall, far superior.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 6:00:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 7:42:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ffsparky26: What are the pro's and con's of a chrome lined barrel? And is it worth the extra money?
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What are you intentions for the Barrel???
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 12:24:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2003 5:17:56 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
I would rate chrome lining second only to good high quality GI mags as the main ingredients to a reliable [s]combat[/s] serious-use AR15.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 4:53:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2003 4:54:32 AM EDT by Hail Mary]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: I would rate chrome lining second only to good high quality GI mags as the main ingredients to a reliable combat AR15.
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I only use chrome line barrels in
combat M16s
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. The 24" target AR15 is a non chrome due to the slight tad increase in accuarcy potential and that I couldn't find a chrome 24 incher.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 5:14:31 AM EDT
Allow me to change "combat" to "serious use."
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 1:26:51 PM EDT
wow - I'll offer a different answer. Pros? marginally easier to clean and longer bore life under full auto conditions and poor environmental conditions. Cons? a bit more expensive, and the equivalent quality plain barrel will be more accurate. The two non-chrome AR's I have really put through their paces have never NEVER failed to extract. Brass looks good, no extractor dings. One of those barrels - a Wilson stainless match - rarely sees a cleaning rod because almost nothing ever comes off the second patch. I have not kept a running total on rounds through it, but it must be around 3-4K. I clean this rifle when the black crud in the upper gets embarrasing. The other is an Oly (?) 24" chrome moly barrel. It never failed to extract, but it is a hot weather rifle as the barrel walks when warming up. 80F or hotter it is a one hole rifle. Many many rounds through it too. My opinion is that chrome only matters where you are in combat conditions in poor maintenance conditions with poor ammo. It does not make a whit of difference in civilian conditions. Contrasted against the Guatemalan M16 kits I bought - those barrels are TOAST. I haven't shot them as I pulled the barrels off them after a couple range sessions, but the chrome did protect the barrel to some extent. On one of them, the barrel exterior (and the aluminum upper) was badly pitted, while the bore looked OK. The only problem, other than horrid accuracy, was that the barrel was tweaked several degrees where the flash suppresser was massively overtorqued.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 7:08:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 8:24:50 PM EDT
Out of curiosity does anyone know why RRA doesn't chrome line their standard barrels. I want a 16" midlength postban upper, but the only way to get one chrome lined is to get a preban, cut off the lug and replace the FH with a break, which I will do, I'm just curious. I emailed them but haven't heard back yet. Hershey
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 8:49:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By pogo: Cons? a bit more expensive, and the equivalent quality plain barrel will be more accurate.
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This is patently false. The equivalent quality plain barrel will be identically accurate, or so close that the difference isn't worth talking about. That's because neither is made from a match barrel blank in the first place. Until you start with a match barrel blank, any difference in accuracy is going to be moot. Also, I noted that you compared a new, match barrel against a used, damaged M16 barrel. Gee, what a surprise that the M16 barrel wasn't as accurate! [rolleyes] The point is, a Colt or Bushmaster chrome-lined barrel will normally give you 1 MOA of accuracy with good match ammo, and that's far more accuracy than is necessary for a field/combat rifle. Keep in mind that most hunting rifles will barely do 2 MOA, and get quickly worse as they heat up. But, YMMV, and the choice is yours. -Troy
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False? How can you argue that? A chrome lined barrel is typically drilled, reamed, and rifled and inspected the SAME as a standard barrel, and then a thin coat of chrome is deposited in the bore and chamber to bring the chrome barrel out to finished dimensions. No reaming or polishing possible here. This is another handling step, expensive and sophisticated, manufacturing step, and a further inspection step. That Colt and Bushmaster can build chrome barrels capable of fine accuracy is a testament to their ability to control this chrome layer thickness and quality. If it was easy or cheap, every little barrel builder in the country would be doing this. I recall it was tough even for Colt to chrome bores in the old days with any thickness consistancy. Basically, you have to start out with a VERY GOOD steel bore to produce a GOOD chrome lined barrel. Chrome plating cannot help a poor barrel blank shoot better groups. Flaws in your barrel blank will not be fixed by chrome plating - another surface finish that has its own variables to control. I should restate my original point to say the equivalent chrome moly bore will shoot rings around a chrome plated bore. I brought up the worn out M16 barrels to show why chrome plating is valuable. I was not comparing the accuracy of these to new match barrels as proof chrome was worthless. I said the chrome bores were in good shape despite rusted and pitted EXTERIORS. No flames intended.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 10:22:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2003 10:25:30 PM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
I usualy agree with Troy on most matters, but in this Troy has been sold a bill of goods. The fact is, that unless you are shooting a whole lot of full auto or one heck of alot of rapid fire, you will never know the difference in a chrome or non-chome barrel. I mean fine if your the kind of guy that wants to piss five or six hundred rounds though the barrel every half hour or so, bumping without hitting anything for the shear joy of hearing the gun go off, by all means, get yourself a chrome lined bore. If on the other hand, yor a civilian, who does not have a helicopter coming in to drop you off a pallet load of ammo every time you need it, then I suggest you worry more about hitting what you shoot at, than how fast you can make noise. Troys has a habit of falling prey to MilSpec brainwashing and a somewhat lesser bad habit of beliving "if it costs more money it must make you a better shooter" One wonders from time to time how anybody ever got killed in combat without all these fancy toys, Chrome lined barrels, Aimpoints, EOtechs, Luepold glass, Super-duper Douglas SPR barrels with fancy comps. I've said it before and I will say it again, $2000.00 worth of fancy crap hanging off your AR, will not make you a more efficient killer, you grandfather with a old fashioned M1 Garand or a lousy M3 grease gun managed somehow to destroy the Third Riech, with little more than mind set, common sense and knowledge of the weapon he carried. There is no substitute for cleaning and taking care of you weapon and if you take care of a Non-chrome lined barrel, it will take care of you. So is the "Go chrome or go home" line in Troy's sig line total hype...You bet it is. There was a guy on here a couple of months ago, who had spent a small kings ransom building a MSTN SPR a while back, with the Super Douglas profiled barrel and the works, who posted his groups with this uber rifle, and I wanted to laugh when I pulled up the pics...Jeeze, I mean this is an AR builders site, kind of like a custom car builders site, so you have to give a little respect to, guys that go all out in the build, just because it was pretty...But his groups were nothing to write home about, in fact my plain Jane Non-chomed 16" Rock River will print groups of that size at that range. So you will excuse me if I was a little bit less than impressed with how much more dangerous, real combat ready and high speed low drag this rifle was. Am I a SpecWar operative with tons of Combat time....No, but neither is Troy or Lumpy ( both of whom I respect very much and read their stuff often) But I have put a truck full of rounds down range out of ten differt AR's in the last twenty years and I don't think Chrome or non-chromed has made a damned bit of difference. In the end you have either been in the AR game long enough to know what does and does not work, or you have not. I know an old guy I like to call think of as yoda, Who has probably forgotten more about killing North Korean's and Communist ChiComs on the Pusan Perimeter, than Lumpy and Troy will know in their lifetimes put together, he was also an Alaskan hunting guide and moly coats his own bullets for high power. This 76 year old guy is the best natural shooter I ever saw in my life and when he laughed about this chrome lined thread when I told him about it, I believe whole heartedly, that he was right. What he said was, "That Chome lined barrel stuff is a bunch of crap youngster"
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 12:39:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 2:37:42 AM EDT
In my experience, chrome lined guns have proven notably more reliable than non-lined when the gun gets dirty. Thats why all my guns now wear chrome lined barrels.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 8:08:41 AM EDT
I think I mentioned WHY a chrome bored rifle will not be as precise as its non-chromed cousin. Proof? Look at what serious accuracy minded shooters use - benchrest, highpower, and varmint. Your typical smith would laugh out loud if you wanted to use a chrome bore here. For God's sake - the huge body of anectdotal evidence out there states the chromed bore will be at a disadvantage compared to its non-chromed bore precision wise. Your assertion is like stating in general lever actions are as accurate as bolt guns. As far as the FN police rifle goes, this is a rifle which may be stored in the trunk of a police car for months on end in humid hellholes across the globe. Corrosion and rust are real concerns. Have you priced them out lately? Last time I did, I found prices on line that start around 1600 bucks to over 8000(!) bucks. I would assume that 1600 dollar rifles have extremely high quality barrels to start with - not cheap or easy to make. Your average 250 dollar (retail price at that) barrel blank should be capable of .5 MOA. I bought my first AR in 1984, and assembled my first upper in 1987 or so to use the new heavyweight 69 grain bullets. I've been messing with AR's in varying intensity since then. I have run into functioning problems, and seen many more, but I haven't heard of anyone having problems where a chrome bore would make the difference between functioning and not. A civilian that takes such poor care of his rifle as to let the bore and chamber rust will have more problems that can be solved with a chrome bore. This is a Darwinian self-critiquing behaviour in a life or death situation. The bottom line is that a chrome lining has real benifits in military/police guns with little or no advantage to the civilian. Thank God we have that choice - chrome is as much a military characteristic as detachable mags, pistol grip, bayo lug, and a collapsible stock.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 8:52:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2003 9:11:04 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
As many have debated here it depends on what you are using your rifle for. If you want a rifle/carbine for fighting go chrome. If you will be benchrest shooting you can get by without the chrome. Pogo, I beg to differ, I think chrome lining gives the same real advantages to the civlian as to military and police. Why would the advantages be less "REAL" because someone isn't LEO or active military? I guess the better question is, if there are real advatages to military and LEO then why wouldn't you want the same for yourself? So what if it's a military characteristic! Believe it or not the pistol grip, collapsible stock, detachable mags and flash hiders all provide you very "REAL" advantages. Also, what's the price difference for a chrome lined barrel, $25-$50??? Hell yeah, it's worth it alone just for the ability to cut my cleaning time in half. That leaves me more time to shoot![;)] You won't miss that 1/8" MOA you loose... Again for ffsparky26, once you know what purpose your rifle/carbine will serve you'll know what the best option will be.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 9:43:25 AM EDT
If you want to live in a fairy tale land of fending off charging hordes of commies while slithering through the mud like in an HK ad, fine. Chrome lining is for you. I am not one of those guys who like to bump fire 30 round mags one after the other, nor do I understand their way of thinking. If you are, perhaps chrome lining is for you. In the real life day to day world of the average shooter who does not abuse his rifle, chrome lining won't make a whit of difference. When someone asks the pros and cons of something and worth the extra money, I try to answer that instead of pointing to my tag line of a rap tune lyric. I also try to note my personal observations and state my personal opinions as such. You can talk of your "combat" or "serious-use" rifles and I won't laugh at the implicit Soldier of Fortune mindset. I have my own passions or daydreams I like to indulge in too. My opinions are based on what I see that works or doesnt work, firsthand, and are not a repetition of the fevered imaginations of keyboard commandoes.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 12:40:50 PM EDT
Well Pogo Thanks for the advice but..... I do not appreciate the negative comments about combat usage of AR15's. My rifle is for Militia Duty, oops. I said Militia, that’s right. I am in a Militia and Pogo if you are between the ages of 18-45 you are too under the Militia Act of 1792. I will probably get my barrel chrome lined, to fulfill my legal obligation as part of the unorganized militia. ;)
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 12:53:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2003 12:55:24 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By pogo: If you want to live in a fairy tale land of fending off charging hordes of commies while slithering through the mud like in an HK ad, fine. Chrome lining is for you. I am not one of those guys who like to bump fire 30 round mags one after the other, nor do I understand their way of thinking. If you are, perhaps chrome lining is for you. In the real life day to day world of the average shooter who does not abuse his rifle, chrome lining won't make a whit of difference. When someone asks the pros and cons of something and worth the extra money, I try to answer that instead of pointing to my tag line of a rap tune lyric. I also try to note my personal observations and state my personal opinions as such. You can talk of your "combat" or "serious-use" rifles and I won't laugh at the implicit Soldier of Fortune mindset. I have my own passions or daydreams I like to indulge in too. My opinions are based on what I see that works or doesnt work, firsthand, and are not a repetition of the fevered imaginations of keyboard commandoes.
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WTF? Why do you have come back with BULLSHIT insults like that? It has nothing to do with combat jack fantasies, having chrome lining is an asset to any hard use firearm. I guess we should make sure that our AR's are only used in nice sunny 70 degree weather under a covered shooting range with all the nice cleaning gear on hand. Maybe we're just a bunch a over paranoid idiots for thinking ahead and being prepared for less than ideal conditions...[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 1:43:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2003 1:44:24 PM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Having read Troy and Lumpys posts for quite a while, I would just make the point, that I would be shocked, if on inspection of the chamber of either of their chrome lined rifles, one could find the slightest hint of corosion or pitting, on the other hand, you would find the same level of chamber shine and lack of corrosion or pitting on my Non-chomed barrel. The reason for this is so obvious that it almost goes without saying. Troy, Lumpy and myself all take great pains to ensure the reliable function of our rifles. The fact of the matter is, that that none of the shooters listed above, is an 18 year old recruit, trying to come to grips with the first M-16 that Uncle Sugar handed him, that had been abused by the last ten or twelve recruits that shit on it before he got hold of it. Troy mentions training in one of the above posts. to this I would reply that cleaning, bore and chamber care are all hallmarks of those shooters who have attained the lofty and zen like level training of which Troy speaks. Non-chomed Chambers only get corroded and pitted, if the guy carrying the rifle lets them get that way. For that matter I have seen a few Chrome lined bores, that had been neglected, that looked pretty rough to. Chrome is not a magic solution that means you do not have to take care of your chamber or bore. A Non-chromed chamber, that is in good condition with no pitting or corrosion, is just as reliable as a chome lined chamber (Unless Troy is implying that chome has some self lubricating property, which I doubt very much he would do.) Troy likes to talk about serious rifle use alot, but what he fails to mention is that serious rifle users know enough to take care of their weapons, so that the chrome vs Non-chrome argument is moot. Serious rifle users don't let there chamber rust up.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 1:47:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pogo: If you want to live in a fairy tale land of fending off charging hordes of commies while slithering through the mud like in an HK ad, fine. Chrome lining is for you.
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Corrosion in your chamber from moisture can happen to anyone pogo, and extraction is one of the #1 reliability problems an AR can have. It doesn't have anything to do with having war fantasies. Insulting the intelligence of people doesn't prove anything other than you're a jackass.
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 3:52:28 PM EDT
Lumpy, your first post mentioned chrome lining (and magazines) as the MAIN ingredient to a COMBAT reliable rifle. Other posts mentioned military use and (gasp!) militia use. Diabetes happens to anyone, rusty chambers happen to the careless. Lightning strikes happen to anyone, but DUI's happen to the stupid. Most of the posts in this thread reflected a blind faith in the religion of chrome without anything to back it up. FAL37 mentioned proper maintenance to keeping a rifle ready abd reliable, but it went over like a lead balloon in this thread. Your second relevant post was a generic two-line observation without anything further explanation. What should I make of this? Insulting your intelligence? You did not post anything meaningful to start with. I mentioned personal experience, observations of MY barrels, manufacturing processes, and cost of good barrels. I have heard very little relevant material in reply. I thought a rant might shake loose some intelligent replies, but I was mistaken.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 2:35:18 AM EDT
Well I'll be inteligent about it. I lived in Michigan for many years, and in cold or wet weather I noticed for myself that extraction was iffy on occassion with my non-chrome lined barrels. I clean and lubed they worked fine until they started to get dirty. Not a problem if you plan on sticking to range time only. Trunk guns dont always get taken out every day to be cleaned and lubed. I had one Eagle Carbine that always was problematic when dirty. A switch to a Bushmaster chrome lined barrel ended this and I have had almost 4000 rounds through it without a single failure to extract. This wasnt the case before. I had had the unlined chamber checked and it was within spec. Ive also had the priveledge to see MANY AR15s in use, and by far the mil-spec lined barrels have a reliability edge. Im not into mil-spec because Im a wanna-be, Im into mil-spec barrels because I'll defer to the source that has the most experience with M16/AR15 variants in harsh use - the military. Im perfectly happy with the accuracy I get from my chrome lined barrels, and if lining gives me an edge in reliability, I'll take it.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 3:52:31 AM EDT
I am a decent shot with a rifle. I have yet to find a chrome lined barrel, that I could fully use its accuracy potential. They are all more accurate than I can humanly be. It tends to be a bit wet and humid here in NE FL. Lots of salt in the air from the coast, since I am only about 10/15 miles inland as the crow flies. I'll take chrome thanks. There is no reason not too.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 11:08:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pogo: I mentioned personal experience, observations of MY barrels, manufacturing processes, and cost of good barrels. I have heard very little relevant material in reply. I thought a rant might shake loose some intelligent replies, but I was mistaken.
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Perhaps you could summarize for me, then, the ADVANTAGES of a non chrome-lined barrel over a chrome-lined barrel, if COST is the determining factor? I seriously doubt that any non chrome-lined barrel which sells for less than a chrome-lined one will be demonstrably any more accurate than the chrome-lined barrel. If we're talking high-dollar target barrels, then cost was demonstrably not a factor in the decision. The absence of chrome lining on low-dollar barrels is a simple cost-cutting measure. You may dispute that the acknowledged ADVANTAGES of a chrome-lined barrel are not particularly useful to a non-LE, non-military shooter, but those advantages are not detriments, either. I know of no ADVANTAGES of non chrome-lined barrels which are less expensive than their chrome-lined counterparts over those chrome-lined barrels. Perhaps you'll be able to disabuse me.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 11:36:24 AM EDT
I think one benefit of the chrome-lined bore and chamber would be to allow shooting Russian ammo in it w/o the cases occasionally getting stuck.
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 11:50:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: $2000.00 worth of fancy crap hanging off your AR, will not make you a more efficient killer, you grandfather with a old fashioned M1 Garand or a lousy M3 grease gun managed somehow to destroy the Third Riech...
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FearandLoathing- now THERE is a sig line if I have ever seen one! [:)]
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 12:18:59 PM EDT
First I want to thank everyone for the entertainment factor, it's priceless... From an un-educated point of view here is two cents. If you take care of your weapons, cleaning when used, storing properly, etc. Plain barrels are OK. If you are a match shooter, or just an accuracy amatuer, plain barrels are a bit more accurate. If you are on a tight budget, but don't mind springing for a few more patches, plain barrels are cheaper. If you want a weapon that is more tolerant of mistreatment, can sustain a higher rate of fire without extra wear, or is exposed to adverse storage conditions, chrome lining helps. I am more dubious about FTC and FTE improvements but I would have to defer to those with more experience. When I do more than shooting a few hundred rounds through other peoples weapons I may form an opinion. If there is a big difference in reliability that would be important. It also seems to me that if you are buying a carbine, you are not going to be driving tacks with it. The loss of accuracy is minimal and the advantages are maximized. If chrome lining was $100 or more, that would be different. But it's only $35-50 isn't it? For me, my first AR will most likely be a 20" with the best plain barrel I can afford. I will take good care of it and store it the best I can. When I add a tack driving upper or complete rifle, it will be plain. When I build a "dream" carbine, it will be chromed. Notice the use of when, not if. :-)
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 7:43:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2003 7:44:23 AM EDT by 123whisper]
Blah! Blah! Blah! Pissing match Blah! Blah! Blah! [red][size=6]IF YOU ARE A CILIVIAN AND HAVE CHROME-LINING ON YOUR RIFLE, YOU ARE A POSER!!![/SIZE=6][/RED] Ahah! Take that you evil scourge![}:D]
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 8:10:19 AM EDT
Such a bright, intelligent neighborhood.
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 8:35:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BDHershey: Out of curiosity does anyone know why RRA doesn't chrome line their standard barrels. I want a 16" midlength postban upper, but the only way to get one chrome lined is to get a preban, cut off the lug and replace the FH with a break, which I will do, I'm just curious. I emailed them but haven't heard back yet. Hershey
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I don't want to break this party up so I'll be quick: Hershey, Steve @ [url=www.adcofirearms.com]ADCO[/url] has 16", mid-length, chrome-lined barrels on the way! Sit tight [;)]
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