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Posted: 7/23/2003 2:19:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2003 10:11:41 PM EDT by benbob]
I want to try some 0% forgings. Any recomendations on tooling or technique would be greatly apreciated.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:24:43 PM EDT
Try this link: [url]http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/progressDetail3.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 2:32:57 AM EDT
Did you get the CNC option? Much simpler with CNC on the 0%.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:12:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 5:13:03 AM EDT by Tropic_Lightning]
I knew I saved this for a reason. [url]ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=148435 [/url] Tropic
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:28:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 6:37:03 AM EDT by mjydrafter]
First thing you'll want is a decent vise, some good measuring tools, a good selection of end mills, either end mill holders or collets, a decent collection of twist drills would be nice, cutting fluid, oil for the machine, a clamp kit (hold down the vise or work piece directly, and a decent selection of hand tools. I'm sure others will add something I forgot. You'll want to look at arby's excellent post over at the above mentioned [url]www.roderuscustom.tzo.com[/url] What kind of a mill is it? What is your expirience level? If you're new to machining I would get a book or 10. Try to get a copy of machinerys handbook. I've found really cool old machine shop texts from used book sales and used book stores. As well as Joe Martins Table Top Machining book [url]http://www.sherline.com/[/url] lots of really cool pictures here are a few good machining bulletin boards for machinists: [url]http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/ubbs/Ultimate.cgi?[/url] [url]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/[/url] [url]http://www.chaski.com/[/url] If you thought AR's were an expensive addiction, just wait untill you start getting multiple machinery and tooling catalogs... edited 'cause I suck at the internet.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:51:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By benbob: I want to try some 0% forgings. Any recomendations on tooling or technique would be greatly apreciated.
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What kind of mill did you get? I am seriously contemplating getting one. Trying to get by with a drill press is tough.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 12:47:27 PM EDT
Arby's post at roderus is absolutely priceless, I downloaded the zip with all the pics and can't believe how good the info there is. My mill is a central machinery mill drill. Longitudinal travel 9 1/4, cross-slide travel 5 3/4. its a bunch bigger than a mini mill at about the same price. This weekend chips will fly.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 1:19:56 PM EDT
Please keep us posted, I am about to start a 0% forging myself. I just need to wait until they get in.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 10:28:56 PM EDT
I just (almost) finishied machining an NOC Casting. It took about 5 hours total, the only thing I have left to do is file out the magazine well. This may take another 5 hours to do. I started by leveling the top and bottom of the casting. I then reamed the mag catch hole and set my mill to 0. going off that hole i went up to the front pivot hole and drilled and reamed it. I re-set zero for that hole and used it for the rear takedown hole and the fire control holes. I didn't bother to lay-out anything I just found a zero point and dialed directly to the other holes from there. I drilled through both sides at the same time (to see how it would work) it looks perfect. I don't have a digital camera or I could post a pic...grrrr The hammer sticks up straight like it should, the trigger feels good, the bolt isn't binding. I will finish the mag-well tomorrow and hopefully find out how and if it functions tomorrow I can't think of any way to finish the mag well without a file!! I am going to order 0% forgings on monday... the only thing I am not sure of is if I should order 10 or 15 forgings... at $20 each I am not afraid to make mistakes.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 7:00:29 AM EDT
Funny thing about Arby and the RoderusCustom forums, is that in the end, they adapted the method that was posted here. I forgot the poster's name but his method was to measure off the boss for the starting point. At first, many over there thought is was a bad idea and even had a exchange here with that guy about it. However, I've used it right from the start. It works great because most don't have the expense, accurate vises like Kurt. Thus, you cannot acheive repeated accuracy in removing and reclamping of the lower.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 8:06:46 AM EDT
Now that I have a good digital camera, and the urge to mill out another lower from a 0 percent forging is starting to grow in me, when and if I do it, I'll document it for the group's library.. By the way, if you have someone in the area who's good at welding aluminum, you can salvage a lot of mistakes. I did. I even had the entire buffer tube hole rewelded and recut it. CJ
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 9:45:47 AM EDT
I am particularily interested in hear how you broached the mag well with the milling machine. The more pictures you can take the better.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 10:27:14 AM EDT
Broach? What's this broaching thing? But seriously, I handled the mag well by getting a small handful of NEW, SHARP 1/8th inch drill bits, using them to drill the corners of the well, at 8 points, and never used one drill bit for more than two holes because they'll start to wander on the third hole. Then, I used a largish drill bit (half inch or larger) to hog out a lot of the material between the corner holes, and then I milled out from corner hole to corner hole, taking maybe an eighth of an inch in depth per pass. This was really fun because the end mills weren't quite long enough, so I was playing the risk game by chucking up the end mills in the collet with very little gripping surface engaged. I also flipped the receiver over part way through as well to make things go a little easier. I worked up close to the sides slowly and carefully, and finished out the corners with a few files, and I more or less filed the interior of the mag well so that any good condition USGI mag dropped freely. Yes, it IS a lot of work to MILL out the mag well, but it can be done and the best advice I can give to you on doing it is to use high quality, sharp 1/8th inch drills for the eight corners, and don't use any one of these drills for more than two of these holes or it'll start to wander on the third hole. Really. And if you can get extra length single ended end mills, get them. You will appreciate having enough cutter length to cut the well in one setup. I had a much tougher time getting the buffer tube hole right, but after one reweld and rework, it came out perfect, and I'd used a boring bar as a fly cutter (with a very carefully ground HSS tooth) to cut the 1.125" bore, too! I'd post pics, but our AR15.com image galleries are so screwed up that I haven't been able to EVER upload a single image successfully since it was changed recently. If anyone can tell me about that, it would be appreciated. CJ
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 10:42:42 AM EDT
Thanks for the info. That is how I pictured doing it. It sounds like a lot of work but short of getting an EDM it sounds like the only way. Oh and by the way broaching is a way of machining by kinda dragging a sharp tapered cutter (much like a saw in crossection) across the metal, much like keyways are cut.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 10:47:37 AM EDT
Yeah, I was kidding. I know what broaching is. I've done some of it, back when I was taking the machine tools program at the local community college. (The college has since discontinued the program, the rat bastards! All those machines in the shop room, nobody to use them, and worst of all, they don't even maintain adequate air conditioning in the shop when it's not in use so they're RUSTING!!!! Seeing a 260,000 dollar HAAS CNC lathe with rust on the tooling and chuck is a SICKENING thing! Same goes for their virtually unused CNC vertical mill. Maybe I should offer to take them off their hands because they're taking up space and then they won't have to hassle with maintaining them?
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 12:39:53 PM EDT
That F@$%!ng sucks, nothing worse than a waste of perfectly good machine tools.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 4:26:40 PM EDT
Great advice stator and cmjohnson I need all the advice I can get. if you start another 0% forging please post pics.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 5:52:52 PM EDT
I'm interested a source for raw AR 15 lower forgings .Would someone point me toward a source to save me a few hours of searching? Thanks,Robert.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 6:26:24 PM EDT
I can sell you some. I just ordered a small lot from a supplier, I forgot the name of the supplier at the moment but it is the one in New Britain. $21.75 plus shipping if you want.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 5:17:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 5:20:33 AM EDT by philsAR]
hey cold, don't sell too many of those 0% forgings! We won't have many to screw up...I guess they have arrived? lol [beer] btw: we should document the heck out ot this project. Bring your digital video, we can get my boss to edit something together for us.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 1:52:08 PM EDT
Hey Philsar I just got the package of 0% forgings in. They are pretty sweet. I cannot wait to start making chips fly!
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 7:08:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2003 7:08:59 AM EDT by philsAR]
Originally Posted By coldzero: Hey Philsar I just got the package of 0% forgings in. They are pretty sweet. I cannot wait to start making chips fly!
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Wow! those forgings are much nicer (and more complete) than I thought. Definitely worth the extra $$. Let's get started tomorrow at lunch. Bring digital vid cam. I'll walk it in for ya! [bounce]
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 5:17:31 PM EDT
I started on the lower!! Too much fun. I trued up the top, bottom, mag bottom, buffer tube. I also started drilling the fwd pivot pin and rear retaining pin. I can't wait to make more chips fly.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:29:33 PM EDT
Making your own Lowers Sounds cool! But what about all the leagal crap? can you just make it number it some odd number and register it and be leagal or what?? Like per say if I got a few of those thingy's and built em at school in my tool/dye making class this year.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:48:48 PM EDT
You can make as many you want but you CANNOT EVER SELL THEM. But if you just want them for yourself go for it as long as it is legal for you to own that type of gun (not a felon or the gu is legal in your area) you are all set.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 7:35:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By coldzero: You can make as many you want but you CANNOT EVER SELL THEM. But if you just want them for yourself go for it as long as it is legal for you to own that type of gun (not a felon or the gu is legal in your area) you are all set.
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Or under age. I have to admit it was the use of the word "thingy" that made me think of the age issue. Bob
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 9:13:58 PM EDT
Actually, I have learned that you CAN sell one you make, but you can't make it with the INTENT of selling it. It has to be part of your own personal rifle, you have to use it, and if you decide that you need to sell the rifle, you can do so. The ATF won't allow you to be in the business of firearms manufacture unless you become a properly licensed firearms manufacturer, but you can make them for your own personal use and you can sell them but not as a source of income. And it won't fly if you build one, shoot it for a while, sell it, and build another one. In other words, it's a pretty grey area. Proceed with caution. I do recommend that you take your lowers to an engraving shop and have them engrave some data on the receiver. I would include a date of manufacture, your name, and some form of serialization number to be determined by you. CJ
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 6:34:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2003 6:35:56 AM EDT by philsAR]
Originally Posted By kells81: Making your own Lowers Sounds cool! But what about all the leagal crap? can you just make it number it some odd number and register it and be leagal or what?? Like per say if I got a few of those thingy's and built em at school in my tool/dye making class this year.
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not necessary to serialize it. [b]NO REGISTRATION[/b] is required. Yes it is legal to make it for yourself. In fact, you can perform as little as 20% of the work and still no registration or tracking requirement. [url=www.ktordnance.com/kto/]See this link[/url]
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 9:08:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2003 9:09:23 AM EDT by illigb]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Actually, I have learned that you CAN sell one you make, but you can't make it with the INTENT of selling it. It has to be part of your own personal rifle, you have to use it, and if you decide that you need to sell the rifle, you can do so. The ATF won't allow you to be in the business of firearms manufacture unless you become a properly licensed firearms manufacturer, but you can make them for your own personal use and you can sell them but not as a source of income. And it won't fly if you build one, shoot it for a while, sell it, and build another one. In other words, it's a pretty grey area. Proceed with caution. I do recommend that you take your lowers to an engraving shop and have them engrave some data on the receiver. I would include a date of manufacture, your name, and some form of serialization number to be determined by you. CJ
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Correct CJ. A friend of mine is a Class 2 SOT and you can sell up to one a year as long as you didn't manufacture it with the intent of selling it. I found this out while working on my 1919 project. [:P]
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