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Posted: 7/20/2003 2:03:32 PM EDT
I posted in the general discussion about the fade away problem apparently typical of the RRA trigger: after 50 shots it becomes a lite, smooth, but very long single stage trigger.

I'll likely, eventually, solve the problem with a JP trigger, but since screwing around with stuff fills the time between range sessions -- is there a home brew fix to mofify the trigger to remove/reduce the take up and over travel?

I did the common fix to my AK trigger by having a welder put beads that could be filed to limit the return of the trigger and the overtravel, and it works great (for an AK).

I've hesitated to even look at it (the RRA job), after paying so much to buy the da-- thing in the first place.

How about it? Any old posts or URLs you could point me to?

Thanks y'all.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 7:08:39 PM EDT
Have you tried calling RRA yet? By the way, it's not that typical, or I'm extremely lucky, because I have several RRA rifles with the two-stage triggers, all have waaaay more than fifty rounds through them, and I still have a very distinctive take-up (first stage), and a very short and light let off (second stage) on all of them. Try calling and asking for tech support...that's always worked for me in the past when a technical/repair issue. Sluggo
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 8:32:55 PM EDT
Are you talking about the standard or two stage trigger? My RRA two stage trigger has a couple of thousand rounds on it with no change....still crisp and predictable.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 5:27:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By org: Are you talking about the standard or two stage trigger? My RRA two stage trigger has a couple of thousand rounds on it with no change....still crisp and predictable.
View Quote
Same here..no problems and still works as well as it did when I installed it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 5:39:11 AM EDT
This is the first I've heard about this problem. I've got two of the RRA 2-stage triggers with several thousands rounds through them. Both of them still feel great with a smooth, light first stage and a very crisp second.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 9:01:09 AM EDT
I removed the upper (the heavy part of the rifle) and with total concentration and care, I can just barely feel the 2nd. stage stop, followed by a VERY light break. After adding the DCM upper, the 2nd. stage is too light to feel -- maybe a little more spring tension will help. I think I would have preferred the JP single stage group to begin with. Live (and pay) and learn.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 3:22:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 3:23:17 PM EDT by hycheng]
I had the same problem and call RRA before. Not much help there. The only thing they will suggest is send your lower and trigger to them and they will check the position of your pins. They claimed my lower is not mil-spec and blame the problem on it. IIRC, RRA trigger is the same design as Armalite. Armalite has an app note about tuning the trigger by stoning it :o [url]http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote14.htm[/url] The basic problem I've concluded (and the RRA tech seems to agree but refuse to take the blame) is there is not enough sear in the 2nd stage which rely on the disconnector tension to adjust. One caution with messing with the disconnector, you don't want it to fail as that will cause run away discharge.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:57:49 PM EDT
"as that will cause run away discharge" I get that from eating spicy food as well.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:06:50 PM EDT
Call white oak precison. John Holliger tunes these things nicely. I don't know if he would tune a used one, but you never know. He's in the competition forum under gasgunner. M4-AK
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:23:32 PM EDT
m41b The RR NM trigger is modeled closely (but not too closely) after the Milazo-Krieger trigger. Removing the adjustment screw that sets the amount of second stage seems to have satisfied the lawyers. If you look, the trigger has a piece of metal that stops the disconector from rotating forward. The spring pushing the disconector up sets the 2nd stage pressure. The position of the metal (or the thickness of the disconector) sets the 2nd stage engagement. You can remove the disconector by driving the pin out. It looks like they file down the top of the disconector to set the 2nd stage engagement. Probably only takes a few thousandths so don't get too carried away. John Holliger is said to be very good at getting tip top performance from the RRA trigger. I know he could do it, probably for less than you think. http://alccrl.org/whiteoak/whiteoak.htm Jeholliger@cs.com BTW I have 4 of the RRA 2 stage triggers and they are all great after countless rounds. Are your trigger/hammer pins loose in the receiver?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:06:06 PM EDT
I have the same pb, but not after so many rounds. On too many occasions it acts as a single stage and fires much too quickly. I think its not right, if not downright dangerous! In the trash it will go. I paid less and got much much less - back to Jewell a true quality 2 stage.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:27:45 PM EDT
wsar15 Throw that RRA trigger my way. I'll gladly send you the postage.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 10:25:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 11:40:21 PM EDT by hycheng]
Guys, If you read the link from Armalite I posted above and read oldguy's suggestion, they are the same. Take the disconnector out, stone out a little of the top of back of the disconnector that is used to hold it from flipping to the front (circled area) and you will get your second stage. This is the price you pay for a cost effective non-adjustable two stage. If you are slightly out of tolerance, you need to adjust things yourself. I wish the RRA tech support is a little more helpful but I figure it out from the Armalite website and it is fixed. [img]http://home.graffiti.net/3par/RRANM2-S.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:27:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 6:27:38 PM EDT by WSAR15]
Hycheng: to clarify - your recommendation will give a better (more pronounced) second stage? Thanks
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:46:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WSAR15: Hycheng: to clarify - your recommendation will give a better (more pronounced) second stage? Thanks
View Quote
For my case, its from absolutely NO second stage at all to pronounced second stage. But if you have a light second stage, you will get a more pronounced second by doing the same thing. What you are doing is to adjust the sear of the second stage by moving the disconnector forward to increase the contact between the hammer and disconnector.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 5:05:36 PM EDT
Thanks mr(s) oldguy and hycheng, very helpful and kind of you to respond. Your very pertinent remarks, and the URL, have given me lots of food for thought and may have saved me $$$ as well. Incidently, this involves a new RRA lower and trigger (installed by a local gunsmith), purchased as a unit. I've been hesitant to open it up because of the "oversized" pins, and fear of wear to the receiver holes with the banging them in and out, the several times it's likely to take me. Would heating the sides of the receiver (with a lamp?) make it easier to drift the pins out and minimize wear to the holes? Thanks again, guys.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 6:04:07 PM EDT
The oversize pins are not as tight as you think. What's important is a good tapper hammer so that you are not going to scretch the lower. Since you used to have a light 2nd stage, you shouldn't need to stone a lot to get back your 2nd stage reliably. 1-2 mils are more than enough. What I found useful is to hold the hammer or trigger down with your finger until your punch pin that is used to align the hole and the components starts to be loose before pushing the pins in. That way you know you are align. One thing I really wish I can do is to adjust the overtravel. Unfortunately it is not possible with the RRA 2 stage. I was thinking about using the CLE or Bushy 2 stage safty select to do that but for the additional price, you mine as well get a Jewell.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 6:34:28 PM EDT
Posting to track this thread, have 2 of these triggers with less than 100 rds. each. Thanks... MM419
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 8:08:25 AM EDT
After "looking" at this setup and figuring out how it works, I'm thinking that it's so close to useable (with a lighter weight upper), that I might be able to effect an improvement by removing the lubricant from the upper surface of the rearward projecting tang of the disconnector (where it is "captured" by the trigger) and just let it 'wear reduce' the small bit needed. Seems like the 2nd stage would become more obvious, in time, as the disconnector wears down. I can not feel any creep in the second stage, so working down the hammer, as mentioned in the Armalite article, is not needed. What I do feel is a sort of 'klunk' in the sear, just shy of the 2nd stage -- If I stop there with the pull, the trigger 'sticks' and will not return if released. I suspect the sear surface is not perfectly flat and the interface/contact point is hanging on a ragged edge, literally. Looking at the upper, visible portion of the disconnecter tang, the part captured by the rear of the trigger, I see in the center a rough pitted area. The sides are rounded off, and it appears to have been fitted or "timed" with a coarse emery stone or file. No smooth, flat, fine honed or machined surface there. Crude. It makes me dread what the trigger/hammer sear looks like -- might explain that "klunk" sensation in the 1st stage. The Armalite article does recommend some 500 cycles, untill the trigger group has broken in before tuning, so maybe just remove the lubricant and dry fireing might accelerate this. Where did I save that "15 minute trigger job" article?
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 5:24:28 PM EDT
Must be suffering from a lack of patience. Tapped the pins out with the shank of a #29 drill bit and fit an 1/8th" wide strip of 600 grit wet or dry, grit down, against the rearward tang of the disconnecter. I didn't want to mess with drilling out the rivet fixing the disconnecter to the trigger, so I just stuck the wet or dry between the dis. & the trigger capture thingie, and dragged it back and forth. I tried one drag and it wasn't enough, so after taking it apart again, I gave it several "drags", and now I've got a second stage -- and the new skill of being able to tune it as I like -- more, or less 2nd stage, that is. A #32 bit is just the ticket for holding the parts in position as you tap the greased pins back in. I used a thick pad of leather to protect the finish on the pins and the lower, and no, the pins were not all that tight. Went right back in, with a very light tap Thanks for the tips and all guys.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 6:45:28 PM EDT
I am glad your tuning works. Actually, there is no rivet holding the disconnector. Its just a pin, you can even pull it out with your fingers. In the end if everything works out, its all good.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 3:36:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2003 3:37:45 PM EDT by Duffy]
I posted this problem two months ago when my RRA trigger became a single stage light trigger after about 2 magazines, my fix was replace the hammer spring with a reduced strenght spring, problem fixed. I haven't shot it since though, so can't say if it would happen again.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 5:14:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M41B: Where did I save that "15 minute trigger job" article?
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[url=http://www.geocities.com/molonlaberkba/triggerjob.html]15 minute trigger job[/url]
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 11:20:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By philsAR:
Originally Posted By M41B: Where did I save that "15 minute trigger job" article?
View Quote
[url=http://www.geocities.com/molonlaberkba/triggerjob.html]15 minute trigger job[/url]
View Quote
I have no doubt the 15 minute trigger works great on regular triggers. The problem is all Garand and M1A style double hammer hook triggers (Armalite, RRA, Kreiger-Milazzo & Knight's) provide the sear on the surface of the hooks on the hammer, not on the notch at the bottom. Different task for different trigger. It might work on CLE/Bushy style 2 stage though.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 10:28:49 AM EDT
The parts of the "15 minute ..." I found useful were the parts about reducing spring tensions to lighten the pull to suit my preference. I over did it of course, but it does have enough hammer to fire the primer (the lag time sucks) and I sometimes have to push the trigger forward, but I can reduce the bend I put in the trigger spring if I feel like it -- the very light take up in the 1st stage helps to find the resistance at the 2nd stage. Learning how to deal with it is the main thing, to me.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 1:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2003 1:43:45 PM EDT by WSAR15]
I looked at my RR 2-stage and tried it again. I think it is not good, and worse yet: dangerous! The second stage is a joke. Bought something cheap - got something cheap. Out it goes!
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 2:04:47 PM EDT
Big disappointment for me too. Mine went single stage. So now Im back to a 6lb stock trigger. [:(]
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 6:16:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2003 3:49:45 AM EDT by WSAR15]
Yup, and I'm not alone with this piece of garbage..... I wonder how many shooters have experienced the same problem?
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 7:04:23 PM EDT
Hey guys, Instead of throwing your RRA to trash can, why don't you send them to me ? I'll be glad to pay the postage. IM me if you are interested.
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 11:21:50 AM EDT
Tried it at the range this weekend, 102 degrees and no heat mirage!, works great. No more failure to return, no problems. Entirely predictable. Let a friend shoot 50 rounds without a problem, just lots of holes in that 1" white dot @ 100 yds. Need a longer range to shoot at.
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