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Posted: 6/9/2003 2:48:34 PM EDT
Here are the pics of the lower that was problematic to someone.






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Originally Posted By skagnak06:
just recently got my hands on a receiver. so i immediately ordered the lower assembly. i had it completely together then, bam. no long than me putting the drive pin in the lip breaks. i seen discoloration in the forging. I am going to call the manufacturer or Monday. If they dont replace it i will give details. To all of you who think, it was probadly assembled wrong. you are crazy, this was about my 300 assembly/takedown. I spent 8 yrs in the army and 3 yrs of the 8 i was a armoror for a airbourne infantry company. Thats where the m-16/m-4 really get tested. I will let you guys know the outcome of tommorow and hopefully i wont have to drop any names..
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Translation: (Long Version)

I recently received a stripped lower, so I ordered a lower parts kit. I had it all assembled, except for the trigger guard. When I attempted to install the roll pin, without providing the proper support and by using a 3lb sledge, I broke the tab. At this time, I noticed the area around the broken tab was discolored.

Since the area around the tab was discolored, it is a reject and the area was obviously defective. As a result of this manufacturing defect, it is their fault that the tab broke when I attempted to pound in the roll pin.

I won't name the manufacturer of this defective lower, as it would not be right to crucify them until they have had a chance to replace my lower.

To any of you who think I assembled it incorrectly, you are obviously mistaken as I have been in the Army for 8 years, 3 of which where as an armourer for an Airborne company, which as you all know is where the real testing of the M16/M4 was performed. I have assembled/disassembled over 300 M16/M4s and have never had this happen before.

I know you will all be waiting for the results of my phone call to the manufacturer, so I'll let you know what happens, especially if they don't offer to replace the lower (at no charge).

(Short Version)

I got a lower and parts kit. I took the doo-hickey and tried to bang it into the thing-ama-jig and the damned doo-hickey snapped off. Since there was no one around to blame, I noticed the area was discolored, so I'm gonna call the manufacturer and blame it on their obviously inferior product. I'm letting you know so that you can boycott the company if they don't give me a new lower, and to make it sound legit, I'm not gonna tell you who the company is, unless they don't fix what I broke.

For those who may question my ability, I thought of joining the Army at one time, and I've watched Platoon 3 times on TBS, so I know what I'm doing. You may notice that I don't use any of the terminology commonly used because in the Army the REAL names are classified. I don't know the unclassified terminology that you civilians use.

Stand-by for my update so you can give these guys hell!


[ Edited By NEILFJ on 6/1/2003 9:02:01 PM ]



Even though this is obviously a case of someone hammering the trigger guard pin without having the trigger guard in place, we went ahead and replaced the lower for no charge to take care of the customer. Anyway for future reference prior to installing trigger guard pin make sure that you have the trigger guard in between the ears of the lower and then try to hammer or press in the roll pin.


It is actually pretty easy to operate a lower with one trigger guard lip broken, but attached.
It would just brake my heart to look down and see a crack in my rifle's receiver. Even the thought alone bothers me.

Double Star claims they get there "FORGINGS" from the same company as Bushmaster. I do know for a fact that they do all the machine work on tthier own CNCs.

FS/ Double Star lower complete(lowered)




I would like to know how he made it into my shop, where we're hiding the multi-million dollar machining centers, who's running them, and when they have the extra time to run them. I'm going to call our manufacturer in CT and give them hell over charging me for something that we're doing in house and especially charging shipping to boot.



Link Posted: 6/9/2003 2:58:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 2:58:38 PM EDT by ZRH]
I love the big pics.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 3:21:29 PM EDT
"this was about my 300 assembly/takedown. I spent 8 yrs in the army and 3 yrs of the 8 i was a armoror for a airbourne infantry company" Field stripping doesn't count, and as the military doesn't build its own weapons last time I checked, you must have meant field stripping. Of course if he meant he replaced 300 trigger pins, I would have to wonder what the hell his unit was doing!!
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 4:37:43 PM EDT
The audacity of you people.....this is obviously a bad lower....just look at that discoloration,HELL MAN it's BLACK on the outside for GODS SAKE. So did you guys buy this off of the EE or did this guy have the gumption to send it back to you asking for a warranty. Better than that did you warranty it because if you did I'll buy all my lowers from you so if I goob them up while I'm beating the TG pin in I can get a free one.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 4:51:45 PM EDT
He called several times while I was out of town, then caught up with my other crew at the Louisville gun show and they swapped it out. Our lowers can be ordered through your local FFL holder (they can contact us directly or go through Centerfire Systems). Sorry for the big pics, I got in a hurry before I left the shop and didn't get a chance to crop them. I left the resolution high so that it couldn't be said that I was trying to hide something by using low quality pics. Jesse
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:06:29 PM EDT
This topic is a classic I love this guy! He needs to added to a tacked list of AR15.com one hit wonders.(troll posters) Can we make fun of him some more. What a [:k]! P.S. He has inspired me to get a new sig line.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:31:50 PM EDT
Jesse, Whadda mean the trigger guard wasn't in place? He said it was: "The roll pin was already started and was straight. The trigger guard was also in place and the lip was supported by a small piece of wood.". See, you must be wrong! Seriously, I hope you saw that everyone called BS on him immediately. Everyone but him and his "local gunsmith" knows he’s full of it. Thanks for the pictures. What do they say, something about a picture is worth a thousand words? Marc
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 5:59:01 PM EDT by notack]
Well, if that guy really was "an armoror" in the Army for three years, he ; A) would have to know how to read and write. B) should have already known how to do it correctly (without the "bam"). C) has seen rigs beat-up a whole lot worse than that, and still run fine. [(:)] besides, a little touch-up with the Birchwood- Casey pen, and that thing would be good as new! ed;[blue] OH man!, I read the first two posts in that other thread the first time, and never went back. But you guys were brutal! I can't beleive I missed out on so much fun!!![/blue][ROFL2]
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:22:13 PM EDT
JT...thanks for posting the photos, and advise! I don't think he was a troll, but my advise is tell the truth, and don't try and BS us. Many of us have done this ourselves, it goes with BIY. Don't try to pass a mistake off on the dealer/distributor/manufacturer....and finally, don't try to bring others into the situation to use to pressure the dealer into fixing your screw up. Replacing the lower says a lot about the integrity of JT (whom I've never dealt with..yet). I don't think anyone would have faulted you if you refused to replace the lower either. I can't be sure from the photos, but it appears that the lowers are cast...at least it looks like a casing seam on the inside of the trigger guard. Not that it is an issue, just that the poster said it was forged, then said it was cast. PS..I also don't see any "obvious discoloration".
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 10:28:03 PM EDT
Our lowers are made from forgings, you can see on pic 3 the forging mark on the inside of the trigger guard (casting would be a thin line rather than a thick one). I was glad to see that most everyone saw it for what is was, but just wanted to take care of any doubts from anyone who hadn't put a lower together yet. I really take offense to someone who we tell over the phone that we will take care of any problem that he may have, then without being patient enough to allow us time to take care of the problem (I was at Indy from Thursday afternoon till Sunday, had to catch a immediate flight to Dallas Monday for a funeral, get back Tuesday at midnight just to leave 9:00 AM Wed. to drive to IL for the BCR) to start spreading stuff over the net on what a POS that we were offering, then saying BS about our substandard products and their origins when I know unless it is someone who just worked for us (2 possibilities, neither whom were seen @ NGD where the lower was exchanged) no one else has been to our facility since the emergence of Double Star on the market place. I can take just about anything except someone lying on me (or my companies). We work too hard on trying to take care of business in a manner that we would want to be dealt with for someone to attempt to make up something to cover themselves for something that they messed up on. Sorry to have ranted or if I seemed to have been too critical or cruel, but this one just really rubbed me the wrong way. Jesse
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 11:03:02 PM EDT
Sorry to have ranted or if I seemed to have been too critical or cruel, but this one just really rubbed me the wrong way.
View Quote
No need to apologize. I've changed exactly ONE trigger guard, and guess what? I didn't break a damn thing......it's a ROLL PIN, how hard can it be? What'd he do, try to drive it in with a sledgehammer in a single stroke?
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 11:17:05 PM EDT
But ... but! He said there was a flaw in the casting! That MUST be true. This is just another coverup attempt by the manufacturer so they can continue to sell substandard forged castings .... Really, I still can't get over the ignorance of that ... how he claimed in succession that the receiver was both forged and cast. Lab monkeys could have installed that roll pin. Ah well. Respect to JTDistributing for going out of their way to remedy the situation, even though there's no obligation to take any action when the customer screws up.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:29:52 AM EDT
Sorry to have ranted or if I seemed to have been too critical or cruel, but this one just really rubbed me the wrong way.
View Quote
As Zardoz said, no need to apologize. He rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. I hope you gave him a new receiver with the LPK already installed [;)]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 3:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2003 4:05:31 PM EDT by A_Free_Man]
OK, guys, ONE MORE TIME... DON"T HAMMER IN THE PINS!!! 3# hammer, cheesh! Get your largest Vise-Grip pliers, and tape the jaws with electrical tape (to prevent scratching). Two wraps is plenty. This is an important step here: Prepare the pins by lightly grinding a bevel on the end with your Dremel tool. Put wheel bearing grease in the hole with a toothpick. Put a dab on the end of the pin. For the trigger guard put it in position, snap it in at the front, and swing it up into place. Adjust the knob on the Vise-Grips such that the jaws just touch the pin, and the other side of the receiver where you are squeezing, with the handles squeezed together. Now, turn the knob clockwise 1/2 turn, open the handles, and place the pin in position, holding it with needle nose pliers. Position the pliers, with the handles open, and gently squeeze them together. GENTLY, you can do this with light pressure from thumb and one finger. This should just barely start the pin into the hole. Is it straight? Now, remove the pliers, and turn the knob clockwise another half turn. Open the handles and repeat pressing in the pin. It should now be in a little further. Easy does it. Repeat tightening the knob, and pressing in the pin until it is flush. It is far, far better to do this just a little at a time, rather than try to push it in all at once. You will have far more control, be less likely to bend a pin or damage anyting. Take your time. You are done. This may also be done to install the bolt catch, the forward assist, and the gas tube pin. So simple. No scratches, no broken parts. ---- I had posted the method above before, and just a few days ago, I got a IM Mail from a guy thanking me for posting how to do this. He said it was sooo easy! I just ask, try it next time you have pins to install. Also, Jesse: I know you were at a shoot last week, my son talked to you about my J&T kit. Yes, nearly 1000 rnds thru it now, and not one malfunction! I went to the range with it new, cleaned it first. Slapped in a full 30 rnd mag, loaded with SA battle pack ammo, and rapid fired it. Hey, went bang! every time. I like that. No "break in" jams here. Let it cool a few minutes, and repeated with a second mag, again, no failures. All 30 rnds of the second mag went through smoothly, too. Then I proceded to sight in and have fun. Excellent! BTW guys, this is the A2 Carbine kit on a preban lower, mine has the E.R. Shaw 16" chrome-moly (unlined) barrel standard in the J&T basic kits. Say what you want about chrome lining, etc, but with almost 1000 rnds through it, and perfect functioning, I can't complain. KISS. Thanks, Jesse!
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:37:00 PM EDT
:: Grumble Grumble Grumble :: Now, see, if someone had given ME this little tidbit of advice, I wouldn't have had to buy another lower after doing this boneheaded maneuver myself (Unlike our other friend, however, up until this point I was smart enough to keep this braniac action to myself). Yup...I used...a pair of needlenose pliers to hold the pin in place (I did bevel it slightly with the dremel tool, though) and hit it with a ball-peen hammer. You think I'm kidding. I learned much when I threw a perfectly good American Spirit Arms receiver away. I've been to funerals I've felt better at. But yeah, DIY has lots of little moments like that. I like the vise-grip trick. I'm DEFINITELY going to try that on my next build. And yes, I'm cheap. We know that. But cheap isn't supposed to equal stupid, although I'm afraid in MY case it does more often than I care to admit. Kudos, Jesse. Send me a IMM or something with the info on your receivers. I need a new one. Wonder why... But no, no warranty...I pay full price for my mistakes. I wasn't an armorer, either. Just some wackjob in his garage trying to make a nifty little plastic rifle on the cheap. Go figure. Panz [bounce]
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 11:51:56 AM EDT
FWIW: I'm another happy J&T customer, just wanting to show my support. Although I didn't get my lower through you guys, I'm very happy with the kit I did get! I'm about as far from an armorer as you can get, know very little about guns period. But if I can put together a rifle kit in about 1hour (with an 18 month old interrupting me every 5 minutes), with no catastrophic damage issues, you have to wonder. That was more than gracious of you to replace his receiver, above and beyond what he deserved.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 5:29:19 AM EDT
J&T has always delivered top quality products to me, and they are my first stop when I'm ordering something. I've used other kits previously, but not after I found them. Nice folks, and great quality.
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