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Posted: 6/9/2003 2:10:38 PM EDT
This may be a dumb question, but I'm on the verge of ordering three stripped lowers. Two of these will be built into complete rifles and sold (for what I put into them, no profit) to my brothers. I know I'll be the one on the 4473, and I'm going to follow all Illinois regs on transferring guns. There's no legal implications involving manufacture of firearms or anything like that, are there? It's not like I'm going to mass produce rifles with stripped lowers and JT parts kits.

Thanks for clearing up this issue so I can get to work.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 2:51:44 PM EDT
You can give them away as presents but selling them would be a "straw purchase" and illegal. It is legal under federal law to make firearms for [b]yourself[/b] without the intention of selling them. If you do sell them you have to file a form ATF F 5320.1 (1) and then pay the federal excise tax. I dont know about IL laws but in NY you can give them away as presents to immediate family members.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 3:22:30 PM EDT
Of course if they buy the lowers, it is all a moot point.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:28:58 AM EDT
Actually, you are not "making" a firearm, as the lower is already the firearm in this case. You can legally sell the lower, with all of the improvements. (assuming this was a finished lower and you completed the requires fed and state paper work on purchase) If this were an 80% lower, then you may not sell the gun.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:21:14 AM EDT
Straw purchase is the purchase of firearms for resale to someone who would not be legally able to purchase them, so that's not an issue. I was thinking more along the lines of manufacturing, but as jdmcomp points out, the lower is the firearm, and it's already done. These aren't 80% lowers. I suppose all I'm really doing is buying a gun, doing some work on it, and reselling it.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:10:00 AM EDT
Let's say you change your mind right now to keep the rifles. After built, you change it and and give them to your brothers and in return your brothers give you a gift of money. Now you're legal. Besides, the lowers are registered as fireamrs in your name. Proving what was in your mind would be hell. The law is bullshit!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:35:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: The law is bullshit!
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Yup!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:00:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: I was thinking more along the lines of manufacturing, but as jdmcomp points out, the lower is the firearm, and it's already done. These aren't 80% lowers. I suppose all I'm really doing is buying a gun, doing some work on it, and reselling it.
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Yes the lower is the firearm but when you assemble it into [b]complete[/b] firearm you have to pay the FET. Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 922 of The US Code is as follows...
Sec. 922. Unlawful acts -STATUTE- (a) It shall be unlawful - (1) for any person - (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce;
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The exception for selling is:
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
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[18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29] This from the ATF FAQ I have:
(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back] With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]
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Im not trying to rain on your parade. You asked what the law is and I told you.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:56:24 AM EDT
My gunsmith explained the manufacturer's excise tax this way (IIRC): For example, if he purchased an old Mauser, "sporterized it" (new stock, new bbl, etc), and sold it to me, then he has to charge the federal exices tax because he is considered to now be "the manufacturer". If I bought the old Mauser first, then gave it to him to perform those same mods, then no excise tax. But if I went to sell it after that...??? I think the same would apply to you & your brothers. It would be better for them to buy the stripped lowers themselves first, I think. FWIW. --Otter
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:11:40 PM EDT
From what's been posted, I guess the fact that my brothers and I all live in the same state might be relevant. No interstate commerce. I looked through all the stuff on the ATF website, and I'm still not convinced that putting together an AR from a stripped, 100% lower is "manufacture" as they define it. If it was, then you'd have to pay the excise tax on any rifle that you built up and later wanted to sell. Thanks for the replies thus far; obviously, this issue is a little more involved than I thought.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 2:25:52 PM EDT
I have not researched this issue. I am, however, licensed to practice law in Alabama. I had the other individual go with me to my dealer and fill out the form for the lower. I put the lower and kit together for them while they watched/assisted. We went shooting. Problem solved. dwj
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:59:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 5:02:18 AM EDT by monkeyman]
You could buy the stripped lowers. Then sell the stripped lowers to your brothers. Then assemble the parts into rifles for them. However, if it makes you feel better, just pay the damn excise tax whether needed or not. I am sure the government will put it to good use. On the other hand how the hell would anyone know what you do in your own family.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 6:04:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By monkeyman: You could buy the stripped lowers. Then sell the stripped lowers to your brothers. Then assemble the parts into rifles for them.
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I think we have a winner!
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 11:06:21 AM EDT
On the other hand how the hell would anyone know what you do in your own family.
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Very true
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:58:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By monkeyman: You could buy the stripped lowers. Then sell the stripped lowers to your brothers. Then assemble the parts into rifles for them.
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That means you would be paying the FFL tranfer fee 2 times per lower. For me that would be $25 X 3. The best way would be to have the brothers buy thier own lowers and "help" them assemble. Or, you could just ignore the law and buy and build yourself. I mean no one would know but you and the 66,103 other members on this board.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 5:54:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By philsAR:
Originally Posted By monkeyman: You could buy the stripped lowers. Then sell the stripped lowers to your brothers. Then assemble the parts into rifles for them.
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That means you would be paying the FFL tranfer fee 2 times per lower. For me that would be $25 X 3.
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No, because I don't need to go through an FFL to do an in-state transfer in Illinois. It would be a private party transfer.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:03:56 AM EDT
There are only a couple of states that require a FFL transfer for [b][size=4]All[/size=4][/b] firearms transfers. The Federal law requires only going through a FFL if it is purchased at a "dealer" a FFL holder. The Fed Law doesn't make any mention of private transfers between private citizens. Although, you could still be taken to jail if you sold a weapon to a Federaly Prohibited person whether knowing it or not. The private transfer between individuals is the "EVIL Gun Show Loop Hole" that Chucky Schumer and gang are always crying about. There is no loop hole, it's a private sale between to individual, like selling your car, if it's not your Business, you don't need a License.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:25:17 AM EDT
From what I have read about inter family gun purchases/gifting, the sale of them to your brothers in state would be the same as you selling them in state at a gun show. If your state is similar to mine, all you need is a valid drivers license visually inspected by yourself to verify that you are selling an item "in state" to a "resident". You cannot however give the rifles to your brothers as gifts. Siblings are not allowed to "gift" to one another, however father to son, and grandparent to grandson are acceptable. What a joke eh? IMHO, if you purchase the lowers, and on the yellow sheet you said that you were purchasing them for yourself, then you did. Your intention was the purchase of those three items for yourself. Then in three months, your intent was to sell them to your brothers because you suddenly realized that three might have been two more rifles then you needed. Then a month later you realize the error of your ways and buy one more just to be safe and have another one lying around. :)
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 10:51:27 AM EDT
Illannoyed actually has some record-keeping requirements on private-party transfers - you have to record the serial # of the gun, the buyer's FOID #, the date of transfer, and, if the gun has no serial #, an adequate description of the piece. You have to keep that for 10 years. As long as you do that, you're good with the state requirements.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:34:12 PM EDT
If it were me, I'd want [b]their[/b] names on the 4473s for their rifles. Place the order for the lowers, and take them along when you go to pick them up. Might cost you a little more on background check fees to fill out 3 forms instead of 1, but with all transfers occuring between an FFL and the final owner there can't be any legal issues. After your brothers leave the store, how they acquire the rest of the parts and how much assistance they need assembling their rifles would be a non-issue legally.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:42:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 5:47:49 PM EDT by SCR1]
Originally Posted By eswanson: Straw purchase is the purchase of firearms for resale to someone who would not be legally able to purchase them, so that's not an issue. I was thinking more along the lines of manufacturing, but as jdmcomp points out, the lower is the firearm, and it's already done. These aren't 80% lowers. I suppose all I'm really doing is buying a gun, doing some work on it, and reselling it.
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The hardest thing is following IL law. Make sure you wait 24 hours to transfer them (even private transfers!) and keep a receipt for 10 years. I assume the transferees all have FOIDS?? Also Cook County has an AW ban too, so FYI. Steve
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 5:21:00 PM EDT
Have your brothers buy the lowers and just build the legal rifles for them. A 100% Lower is already considered a rifle. Just build a legal configuration for your location (something you can buy in a gunship "post ban") and your fine. Manufacture means just that. Take a hunk of aluminum and make a lower out of it. It doesn't even have to be assembled. If it's for you, you're ok, if you sell it, say hi to bubba for me.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:03:48 AM EDT
just like the army dont ask dont tell
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