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Posted: 6/2/2003 2:10:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 6:57:04 AM EDT by Furner]
I thought of an idea today to allow people to use tools for assembly of AR's; establish a loaner tool program. Some people would need to front the money to buy the tools, but heres how I think it could work.
One person handles the loaning of the tools, they would ship them to people who need to use them. To ensure return of tools, loanee sends paypal or MO for value of tool(s) plus shipping cost and a small extra amount that would eventually pay back those who fronted the money for the tools. When loanee is done with the tool, they send the tool back and a MO for the value of the tool is sent back to them. Below are the tools I think would be a good start:
-Headspace guages (Field at least, GO and NO GO if enough interest)
-Upper reciever Vice Block
-Barrel wrenches of various designs
-Gas tube wrench
-Drift punches
-Barrel jaw blocks

This is just my idea to save some ppl some money, if you think it is dumb, thats fine with me, its just an idea. Say so if you are interested in helping establish this service for AR15.commers.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 4:30:32 AM EDT
It's a nice idea but, I think there would be too many problems with wear, lost parts, untimely returns etc. Whoever buys this stuff is probably going to take a major loss at some point. [toilet]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 4:32:26 AM EDT
what does cost look like for a set of tools?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:00:16 AM EDT
Furner; It's a great idea, and although I would like to see it, it is full of pitfalls. Others have tried similar 'loaner/rental' type programs to share tools with others, but everyone I've heard of has failed. Maybe someone from the original AR15 Builder's Squad will speak up, but they tried something similar to this and the jig/tools were damaged by one of the 1st users. Your main headache will be the logistics. Chasing people to get the stuff back, tracking the shipping status, who gets it next, how long? Those type issues. Its easy to manage with only 3-4 people involved, but if you get 30-40+, then it becomes a major issue. What if you loan it to someone and they send it back. You inspect it and it looks good, then send it out to the next borrower and refund the deposit to the other user. You get a call from the new borrower saying he just got the package and noticed something was damaged. Is he telling the truth? Was it damaged in shipping? Did the new user damage it? Did the old user damage it and you missed the problem during the inspection? Who are you going to go after for the money? These are the type issues you will run into. Do you set up rules that only people with 1000+ posts are allowed to borrow? That will cut down on fly-by-nighters, but check the feedback in the Equipment Exchange. Occassionally, long time members have been know to screw others, so its not really an indication of reliablity of the person. What about deposits/payments. You don't want paypal, since it is possible for the credit card accounts to be charged back. Checks? You'd have to deposit them and wait for them to clear. Same with money orders, except if you require PO money orders, and go down to the PO to cash them. All that being said, if this was to be undertaken by someone, they would probably have about an initial outlay of $150-200 for the tools. He'd have to charge $25-40 per loan, to cover shipping/insurance and recovery of his investment. Or even $25/wk to give people incentive to return the tools in a timely manner. Or you can make it even more complicated. Borrower is responsible for shipping/insuring the return of tools. Also requires tracking number. You could charge $250 deposit. From this you deduct $30 for 1 week, based on when the tracking number indicates it was delivered. Then charge $5/day for each day after the initial week. Charges acrue until you are provided a tracking number that the items are being returned. Once you receive the parts and assure it is complete and undamaged, refund $250 minus the usage charges. The only problem with this is, again, the amount of time/management involved. It's a great idea, but difficult to work. I have hard enough time getting tools back from my brother-in-law (2 miles away), let alone a stranger (3,000 miles away).
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 11:20:17 AM EDT
A real man neither lends or borrows tools! [;)]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 12:17:10 PM EDT
It sounds like a good idea, but I think it will fail in practice. "I invest in precious metals, please don't ask to borrow them" -Sticker from mechanic's tool box
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:06:58 PM EDT
Thanks for the input guys, it sounded like a good idea, but with all the people out there that are just looking for a way to screw others, I think buying the tools would be the best way to go. That way, you can fuel your AR addiction better! Thanks for the comments, I love this place!
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 4:32:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: A real man neither lends or borrows tools! [;)]
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I take offense to that. I have been known to borrow and loan a tool or two from time to time. In an unforseen circumstance. Then I buy the tool the next monday I buy it when the snap on man comes to my work. Man I hate mondays they are expensive. I also let people use my tools and use others tools in situations were we are working on the same job and the impact gun I need is hooked to the air line all ready set up. It makes no sense for me to get my own out of my box disconect theres and hook mine up. Just grab theres and use it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 4:35:33 PM EDT
Theirs. I dont think it will work. Mabey in the hometown forums but not on a national setting.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 5:59:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Peetmoss:
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: A real man neither lends or borrows tools! [;)]
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I take offense to that. I have been known to borrow and loan a tool or two from time to time. In an unforseen circumstance. Then I buy the tool the next monday I buy it when the snap on man comes to my work. Man I hate mondays they are expensive. I also let people use my tools and use others tools in situations were we are working on the same job and the impact gun I need is hooked to the air line all ready set up. It makes no sense for me to get my own out of my box disconect theres and hook mine up. Just grab theres and use it.
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I guess you're not a real man then! Just kidding, I was being sarcastic. Did you see the [;)] at the end of sentence? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 5:12:47 AM EDT
I earn my living with my tools, and have for 20 years. I don't loan anything, nothing personal, just business. If a buddy or neighbor needs something done that takes a special tool, I may do it for him, but the tool is always in my hand. If the need becomes chronic, It becomes work and not a favor. I met an old farmer many years ago and have lived by his advice ever since, "If you need something bad enough to borrow it, you need it bad enough to buy it" There are many tools in my box that I bought for one job, and have not used since. I will not loan those, but if I decide I no longer need them, I will probably sell them. An idea to help fellow builders would be to have a seperate "tools for sale" section in EE. Buy what you need, if it is still servicable after your use, sell it to recover most of your cost.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:08:43 AM EDT
"tools for sale" area actually sounds like a much better idea, maybe someone with leverage should make such a suggestion!
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:14:02 AM EDT
how about a deal over in "Hometown" where you can hook up with local guys who have the tools. maybe work out an arrangement to get your work done and properly compensate the guy with the tools. who knows, you might just make some good friends that way... [:)] ????
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 10:35:25 AM EDT
As others have suggested, I think that it would work in the hometown arena. I don't think that it would be worth it to ship all the tools across the country, when someone in your area could have what is needed. Also, if someone only needed a couple of tools it would make it even less atractive to borrow. Over all I don't think it would work nationaly, but the home town would probably work out great.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 11:10:38 AM EDT
I offer this... Any ARFCOM Member is free to stop by and change a barrel or use any of my tools as long as it is done here in my dungeon. Hold my beer and watch this... MM419
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 11:33:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Minuteman419: Hold my beer and watch this... MM419
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nothing against you, but that sound like redneck famous last words but thanks for the offer, if im in the VA area ill stop by
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:44:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Furner:
Originally Posted By Minuteman419: Hold my beer and watch this... MM419
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nothing against you, but that sound like redneck famous last words but thanks for the offer, if im in the VA area ill stop by
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The hold my Beer thing was in Humor. My offer stands, to all! MM419
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:39:04 PM EDT
I went and bought all of the tools, and it was only about $75. Hold my beer ociffer, I can't reach my license.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 6:48:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minuteman419:
Originally Posted By Furner:
Originally Posted By Minuteman419: Hold my beer and watch this... MM419
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nothing against you, but that sound like redneck famous last words but thanks for the offer, if im in the VA area ill stop by
View Quote
The hold my Beer thing was in Humor. My offer stands, to all! MM419
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Can I just come over and hold your beer? I love you man!
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 8:07:40 PM EDT
lol. I admit that this was a good idea but I think it would easier to mabey just have a group buy on tool kits. The hometown thing might work in a semi-perfect world. But I like having my tools when I need them, not when I can get them.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:18:31 PM EDT
You guys missed his point about a DEPOSIT for the value of the tool, in addition to a small fee for shipping, etc. If the borrower does not return the tool, he has just bought it, and the lender simply buys a new one. BUT some of this is unwise. Shipping two ways will cost about $15. Why do this for a Car stock wrench, which only costs about $6 to begin with? Or for a barrel wrench / armorer's tool? What is that, a $10 item these days? The only expensive tool is the action block. And if you are going to play with AR15's, you really should have one.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 10:40:28 AM EDT
I have to go with 71DL on this one, post in the hometown forum and see if any one around you has the tools. The best part about doing this is that you will meet people around you, and if there like me, I will just have you come over and do most of the work myself, which brings you up to speed on the rifle very quickly, and I don’t have to worry about anyone breaking one of my tools or the tools not being around when I need them. As for the tool list, If I had to count up all the tools that I have used to build/repair rifles, it would be in the hundreds of dollars due to adding files, drill bits, reamers, countersinks, lapping plates and so on. Plus, if you did receive all the tools on a loaner program, you would also need a manual to know where and when to use the oddball tools. P.S. If any one in the Denver area needs help, drop me an IM, I am available on the weekends.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 4:56:12 PM EDT
The idea is a plausable one, but as others have said how do you control "receipt of damaged items". A suggestion would be charge retail value for the tools up front (to cover theft)returnable on receipt + a small rental fee. Just a thought.
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