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Posted: 4/14/2003 8:09:38 PM EDT
I have never fired an AR-15 so I don't know much about them. But I would think a .223 class weapon would not need a muzzle brake. Do they have that much muzzle climb without one? I would rather not put one on mine when I build it if it is not needed to control muzzle flip.
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 10:11:37 PM EDT
You are right, the bone crushing recoil of the massive .223 is a beast to handle in semi-automatic fire. As a matter of fact, due to the strait stock design and head-up comfort considerations, only the bottom inch or so of the buttstock need be seated against your shoulder to shoot effectively while standing. Don't try that with your average .30-06, even with a muzzle brake.
Do they have that much muzzle climb without one?
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Not really, but it all depends on what you want it for. Some people want as close to military appearance as post-banly possible, so they attach legal muzzle brakes to simulate the flash suppressors outlawed on post-94 crime bill weapons. Some people want to keep the crosshairs on the target all the way through bullet impact, others want rise eliminated for competition, others have them mainly because they can. Some styles make the rifle SOUND like its a bone crusher, and a few guarantee that the shooting lanes next to you stay empty due to their side blast. If you don't want one, depending on your shooting needs, you probably won't miss it. And if you decide you want one later, installing them is no big deal, and the options are vast. When you do get to shoot an AR, I'll be surprised if you're not "hooked". Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 6:56:45 AM EDT
Thank you Otto, I am already hooked. Just waiting to go back to work so I can start building one.
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 8:45:18 AM EDT
some people are going with the 24.5 inch bbls witha muzzle break attached (welded) to get to 16" legal. you would do better with the extra 1.5 inches of bbl for accuracy instead of a gee whiz look. the above post is right on about low recoil of a .223. kids can fire them with no problem. but ultimatly to each his own and if you like the way it looks and have the money for a wilson combat break, go for it!
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 8:45:53 AM EDT
i meant to post 14.5 bbl rahter than 24.5 bbl.
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 10:00:35 AM EDT
I don't see me getting a break. Still undecided if I want 16 inch barrel or 20 inch. The range I shoot at the most only has out to 150 yards. I am thinking for my first upper to go with a standard iron sighted 16 inch. I plan to get the Wilson .50 BMG for when I feel the need to reach out and touch something. Of course this all takes time.
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 3:42:45 PM EDT
My Smith brake/compensator allows me to spot my own shots & recover faster- don't need it for recoil reduction
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 5:38:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2003 5:42:48 PM EDT by G35]
Does a muzzle brake actually help any? Yea, it helps... HELPS TO MAKE THE GUN LOUD !!!! Do not listen to those that will reply stating that the brake is not that bad.... IT IS LOAD. I believed some experienced posters here on this board when they said the brake isn't that bad. Then, last week, I fired my Bushy Mini-Y and my 16" Shorty (bare muzzle) at the same time. I found out very quick, the the brake is DAMN LOUD compare to a bare muzzle. [>(] Those experienced members on this board that say the brake is not loud are either smoking crack, or had thier hearing so badly damaged already that they can't detect the sound difference. [:(] MAKE NO MISTAKE - THE BRAKE IS LOUD AND NOT NEEDED. [50]
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 8:25:54 PM EDT
Sparky5, one thing to consider, which you didn't ask, so I'm overstepping your question, is the sight difference between the 16" and 20" barrels. The 16" sight distance is actually set-up for the old military 10.5-11.5 barreled Xm177's and Commandos, so the longer sights on the 20" are more than 4" longer. One possibility (actually 2) is to get a 16" barrel but with the longer sight radius of the 20" ("dissapator" model) or the mid-length sight and handguard setup offered by RRA and Armalite (others?). It adds a few inches to the 16" sight radius and looks more like a scaled down and proportional 20" upper instead of leaving all of that barrel out in front of the front sight ala standard 16" CAR configuration. See[url=http://www.rockriverarms.com/16_a2_carbines.htm]RRA 16" A2 carbines[/url] for comparison. Just an idea. G35, I agree that they are loud, and you happen to have the loudest style I've experienced.
Link Posted: 4/15/2003 10:57:54 PM EDT
I, too, have a Bushy M4E3 with the Mini-Y. I am a former Marine, having spent much quality time with the M16A2 (as many here have, I'm sure). I remember shooting them with fondness, even adoration. I got my M4E3 last week, and took her to the range the next day. HOLY SMOKES! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT NOISE!!! After I shot two rounds, I noticed my eight year old son was farther away from me than usual. I motioned for him to come closer, but he stood his ground just shaking his head, motioning for me to just keep shooting, and to leave him out of it. I fired off the rest of the magazine, and then let him shoot. I stood to his left and rear when... "BAM!!!" and "WHOOOSH" as I was knocked with a blast of air I'd NEVER felt before while shooting the M16's next to fellow Marines in the field, or on the range. At first, I was a bit taken aback by this, but then I had to consider a few things. First, what is the real purpose of the break? Is it to: A) reduce flash; B) reduce sound, or to; C) reduce muzzle climb? It's C. Second, compared to the 20" bbl, how did this 14.5" bbl feel in regards to muzzle climb/recoil? Was it: A) The same; B) better, or C) worse? IT was A: the same as the 20" bbl, in my estimation. Therefore, the purpose was to make the 14.5" bbl feel and act similar to the 20" bbl. At least, that's my take on it, because behind the trigger, while louder, the recoil wasn't any worse, and the muzzle climb wasn't any more than what I remember the M16A2 to be. As for a better comparison, I'll be able to do it soon. I just ordered a J&T 20" A4 kit and I'm buying my bushy stripped lower tomorrow afternoon. As soon as I have this one together, I'll take both to the range and shoot them at the same time (no, not EXACTLY the same time!!!). I'll report back what I find then, but I'm fairly certain it will be about what I have discerned so far. I'm no expert; just a former Marine with some experience with these lovely and seductive black guns. (As an aside, my son opted to shoot my DR-200 for the rest of the day because the M4E3 scared him with its agressive sound.) Semper Fi!
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 12:02:27 AM EDT
The muzzle brake on my first AR served two purposes. 1 It made everyone else at the range wonder how it could be so loud. 2 It looked cool and made my weapon have less recoil than my woman's 10/22. By the way it was an Armalite.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 12:18:55 AM EDT
LMAO!!! Nice!!! Don't forget the earlier mention of making sure that no-one will occupy the positions to either side of you when you go to the range!
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 3:56:55 AM EDT
Otto, I had thought about sight radius. But thanks for mentioning it. I hope to use the longer sight set up. Right now I am looking at getting every thing from DPMS. This is not in the real close future as I just got laid off and expect to be off about two months. I am in the learning, planing stage.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 7:09:06 AM EDT
If you like DPMS parts, and are building anyway, [url=http://www.del-ton.com/]Del-ton[/url] has many of the DPMS upper assemblies, Bolt/carrier group and separate DPMS barrels for less than the MSRP on the DPMS site. Also if you plan to take this slow, sometimes [url=http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?categoryid=8807&categorystring=+649+***+668+***]MidwayUSA[/url] runs sales on the DPMS parts kits, although Del-ton beats them on most everything else.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 12:42:15 PM EDT
Thanks Otto I will check them out. Like I said I am in the planning stage right now. I just had a my .300 win mag custom stocked and blued, bought a Cetme and 2000 rounds of ammo, and a Walther P1 let alone the 3 quads I bought in the last 6 months so moma is starting to watch my spending and toys especially till I get back to work.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 2:38:18 PM EDT
With the extremely low recoil of an AR, I don't see the need for a brake.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 6:41:11 AM EDT
The main reason for a brake is that the skinny barrel just doesn't look right (especially the 16 inchers) without something on the end, IMHO. For all those sensitive Marines out there, Kurt Wala makes a fake flash suppressor for all the look and none of the noise :>} Mike, USN Ret.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 6:48:23 PM EDT
Some people like noise. I'm one of them. The muzle brake on my 16" is quite noisy. I'm a happy camper. Even if the people on both sides of me aren't. Personally I think the standard .223 non-braked report is sort of wimpy sounding.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 10:33:06 AM EDT
As far as the looks of brakes go, check out KKF on the industry board.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 10:50:00 AM EDT
Well I bought a Bushmaster instead of the build. Not what I wanted but I got a good deal on a used gun that looked like it had never been fired. My buddy checked it out for me and said go for it. Well it is a post ban M4 barrel 1:7 twist with an A2 carry handle upper and A2 stock. It has that dang gone loud Mini Y Comp brake and it is LOUD!! Shoots good and I like the feel of it so I am happy. I bet I won't put brakes on any other uppers I get for it though except the .50BMG!
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:02:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:42:17 PM EDT
Note, please, that the guys commenting on muzzle brake noise both have that Bushmaster Mini Y brake, which is generally considered the absolute worst for side blast noise of any in the industry, however effective it may be as a recoil reducer. On the other hand, the M16A2 lookalike brakes I have on my own pieces, and have been around when others were using them, have little or no added noise at the firing point. To be fair though, they are also probably not as effective as actual reducers of recoil. My shoulder doesn't seem to mind[:D]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 2:19:36 PM EDT
Keep in mind that a "mid-length" carbine is also available. I have one (M&A parts). It has 2.5" more sight radius than the standard carbine. See my pic in the BIY main section..
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 2:25:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 2:28:03 PM EDT by NickFury]
Originally Posted By SteveinAz: Keep in mind that a "mid-length" carbine is also available. I have one (M&A parts). It has 2.5" more sight radius than the standard carbine. See my pic in the BIY main section..
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...or you could go with a Dissipator or one of may Dissy-clones - 16" bbl with the full sight radius of a 20" bbl... edited to add: In my opinion, the "Dissipator" set-up is the best-looking 16" set-up WITHOUT a FH/brake/etc. The 16" carbine set-up just looks [b]nekkid[/b] with nothing at the end. (Just talking about looks here, not utility...)
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 2:51:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 2:53:32 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
You don't need one for the range period but if you like laying down a pattern they work better than not having one. Some are better than others depending on how much R&D went into them. The principle is simple, redirect a portion of the muzzle blast upwards to hold the barrel down. I like spraying bullets so I like them. They are louder and they do make the rifle look better and, God forbid, you should decide to sell it, it will sell faster. Tj
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 3:50:46 PM EDT
Jeez how did I miss this thread? The Mini-Y comp [b]SUCKS![/b]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:21:57 PM EDT
I just had to comment. Y-comps don't suck. The Y-comp may be a loud, obnoxious brake, but it is very effective at what it was meant to do, reduce recoil and allow faster shooting. Bushmaster could have put any type of brake they wanted on their rifle, look at that monster Colt put on thier M4 copy, they went with the Y-comp because it works. If you debate this go to an IPSC or tac-3-gun match with a shot timer and time the splits, rifles with good breaks can be shot faster, no debating that. The JT brake is huge and it does the best job at recoil control of any out there but it is not very good for anything but open class IPSC. The Kurts Kustom brakes are in my humble opinion the best looking break out there and provide an OK recoil reduction while not being to loud or having to much side blast. If I had to grab a rifle to use without ear protection I would grab my preban 20" even though I shoot post ban carbines in competitions. I am faster using a rifle with a break and competition is just that, competition.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 5:32:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 5:34:04 PM EDT by bigsapper]
Originally Posted By Blkbrd: I just had to comment. Y-comps don't suck. The Y-comp may be a loud, obnoxious brake, but it is very effective at what it was meant to do, reduce recoil and allow faster shooting. Bushmaster could have put any type of brake they wanted on their rifle, look at that monster Colt put on thier M4 copy, they went with the Y-comp because it works. If you debate this go to an IPSC or tac-3-gun match with a shot timer and time the splits, rifles with good breaks can be shot faster, no debating that. The JT brake is huge and it does the best job at recoil control of any out there but it is not very good for anything but open class IPSC. The Kurts Kustom brakes are in my humble opinion the best looking break out there and provide an OK recoil reduction while not being to loud or having to much side blast. If I had to grab a rifle to use without ear protection I would grab my preban 20" even though I shoot post ban carbines in competitions. I am faster using a rifle with a break and competition is just that, competition.
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Look I'm not a contentious person. However, for everything in your qoute I can say "Been there; Done that". Mini-Y comps [b]SUCK![/b] And dats da name of dat tune. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 5:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 5:54:04 PM EDT by bigsapper]
I decided to add a more informative rebuttal. The alleged fact that the Mini-Y Comp does one thing well (reduce muzzle climb) doesn't mean that it's a good product. As can be seen in this and other threads, it's debatable whether an AR-15 or variant benefits from any anti-muzzle clumb device. As an anaolgy, there are still people today that believe Beta is a better [b]product[/b] then VHS. The prima faciae evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise. I would also suggest that any perceived advantage in more rapid followups due to an alleged reduction in muzzle climb is more than offset in contending with the reflex action of the percussion effect of that blasted POS. Another thing, I believe that the overbearing governance of this industry in general allows people to settle for less than what could be done. I'd point out a [b]lot[/b] of current threads going on currently on this board to back that up but I don't want those pissing contests to hijack this thread. If reducing muzzle climb in an AR-15 is so desirable, why should we have to settle for something that pops your eyeballs out of your head? Few other industries defend such "incomplete" products.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 6:06:53 PM EDT
After having heard Bushmaster had changed out the Mini Y Comp on barrels for guys who bought them and complained about them I contacted Bushmaster. I was told that yes on a new gun they will change the barrel out for another one without the Mini Y, but my rifle was used when I bought it so they could not resale it. Also that being it was 1:7 twist they do not stock them. They only make them when they have Government orders. I am slowly getting used to it . Still don't like it. Hope I NEVER have to shoot it in the house in self defense. That will hurt!!
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:42:38 AM EDT
I have a post-ban DPMS M4 w/o the flash suppressor on the end. The barrel is in the M4 profile, and I actually think it looks quite sleek and sexy that way :)
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