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Posted: 10/11/2002 6:46:10 PM EDT
I just finished putting together my first AR kit, a J&T 20" Expedition on a RRA lower. J&T advertises an FN upper receiver. I read on another website, that has a lot of AR info to "beware of anyone selling FN parts -Avoid them like the plague...FN is a military contractor and cannot sell rifle parts on the commercial market". The website goes on to say,
"Any parts that are ‘truly’ FN produced were either stolen, or were factory rejects that were sold as scrap".

If this is true can someone explain to me how J&T sells "alleged" prohibited military contract parts. Or is what the other website saying incorrect. I wouldn't think a big time distributor like J&T would be selling prohibited parts. Still it makes you think.
Thanks
Link Posted: 10/11/2002 8:06:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2002 8:09:07 PM EDT by SBR7_11]

Originally Posted By Roswell:
FN is a military contractor and cannot sell rifle parts on the commercial market".

"Any parts that are ‘truly’ FN produced were either stolen, or were factory rejects that were sold as scrap".

If this is true can someone explain to me how J&T sells "alleged" prohibited military contract parts. Or is what the other website saying incorrect. I wouldn't think a big time distributor like J&T would be selling prohibited parts. Still it makes you think.
Thanks


I think you answered your own question -- refer to the wording in your question*** or were factory rejects that were sold as scrap"***.
It is my understanding that FN does not sell to the civilian market.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 5:42:08 AM EDT
I have heard that some companies will say they are FN parts because they forged at the same place that FN gets their parts from, or something similar to that.

I wouldn't worry to much about it; just as long as your rifle functions fine.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 6:21:15 AM EDT
Actual FN parts that have been through FN aren't able to be sold. FN contract parts that FN didn't purchase (overruns) are what I believe J&T is advertising.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 11:52:04 AM EDT
I own a beautiful FN FAL made by DSA Arms in northern Illinois as a SAR 58. They have the rightful reputation as being the makers of the best FAL's EVER made, now or in the past. I can get all the parts I need through them but their weapons are so fine nothing has ever broken on my FN so the need is not there. What you guys are talking about doesn't make sense to me.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 12:12:01 PM EDT
They're referring here to FN M16 parts, not FAL parts.

FNMI of Columbia, SC is the current US M16A2 contractor. They are contractually prohibited from selling any of the rifles or parts they manufacture here in the US for the M16 contract to ANYONE except the US Military (not even other federal agencies).

Parts made overseas and imported into the US would not be subject to that limitation, presumably, nor parts made for rifles not subject to their military M16 contract.
Link Posted: 10/12/2002 3:57:30 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies everyone. It's reassuring to know that there is so much knowledge out there to pull from.

I just got back from the range and I can say that I'm completely satisfied with the kit I purchased from J&T Distributing. Fit and finish is great and it performed flawlessly. I can't wait until next weekend and take it to the range.
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 6:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Circuits:
They're referring here to FN M16 parts, not FAL parts.

FNMI of Columbia, SC is the current US M16A2 contractor. They are contractually prohibited from selling any of the rifles or parts they manufacture here in the US for the M16 contract to ANYONE except the US Military (not even other federal agencies).




I don't doubt that your right circuits, but.....

How did my little "one horse" township get their hands on their FN black rifles? I was sitting down at the station the other day (getting a ticket)and one of the officers was heading out the door with his gear. As he passed I said "Colt or Bushmaster?". He didn't know so after he looked at it he says; "FN".

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm......
Link Posted: 10/13/2002 7:18:11 PM EDT
I think that this has been explained a few times, but evidently it needs to be done again. FN just like every other manufacturer does not make every item that they install on their M-16's. They outsource nearly everything, using the same contractors that Colt did when they had the M-16 contract. Those manufacturers also make the same items for other customers. The only thing that they are not allowed to do is to release products with FN's markings to anyone else (unless it is a over-run and FN does not opt to purchase the surplus items, at which time they are fair game to anyone who they want to sell them to), this is primarily for liability reasons. These same contractors supply Colt, BM, Armalite, DPMS, along with other companies with their products.

When we are asked who makes our upper (for example), rather than rattling off xyz manufacturing plant who almost no one has heard of, the easiest and least complex answer is the FN contractor. Since they also make said item for FN, that answer is correct.

The down side to this answer is that there are some unscrupulous dealers who buy junk, and tell customer's the same answer.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:00:57 AM EDT
JTDistributing,
Hope you don't mind another question on this. If there is an over-run specifically for FN and FN opt's not to buy the parts then there could be a lower out there with FN's name roll stamped on it? I believe the manufacturer of the lowers roll stamps the serial number on all the lowers before they leave the manufacturer. Do you know if there are tell-Tale letters attached to the serial numbers to identify the manufacturer or manufacturers? Do you know who has been the major upper and lower receiver manufacturer for FN?
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:36:50 AM EDT
Lowers are a different matter. I do not know the source of their lowers. Lowers are not released even if there is an over run. Lowers can only be made for a class 2 mfg with a serial number varience to create that mfg.'s numbers. Short of theft, there should not be any of FN's lowers out of the hands of military or law enforcement. LE's can sometimes get great buys on M-16's that have come to the end of their military career (they have had the alotted number of rounds through them). Law enforcement agencies can usually purchase these from the military for as low as $150/unit. Generally the only requirement is that they stay in the issued configuration for a set period of time (usually one year).

I do know who has had the majority of the contract for A-2 uppers, that is my supplier. That is why at certain times after major military events parts get hard to acquire.

To my knowledge there is no special markings to designate the mfg. on the lowers, the company would just go to their log book and see where that serial number came from originally.

Jesse
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 2:30:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 2:31:48 PM EDT by exilefromhell]
So this item is either junk or made buy an FN contractor? Either way junk?

www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=5738848
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:38:57 AM EDT
It is interesting to note that the many times I have asked about "FN" products they are not refered to as "FN contractor" but "FN." If the receivers all come from the same place as DPMS, Colt, and Bushmaster, then why do we not hear the term "Colt contractor" etc? I would think that the use of a more familiar name as the contracting source would be a better sales technique. My belief on this it is nothing more than a sales tool. The origin of the receiver (FN) can't be proven. Foundry codes are removed (not sure why) as well.

Also, the FN M16A2s (400 of them) I had while stationed in FL were far superior in quality (fit and finish) than any so called FN contract part I have ever seen available on the civilian market. Why is that?

The upper on the auction uses FN as a selling point, nothing more. FN does not use Wilson barrels. Is FN making the M16A4? Colt is building the M4s So why the referal to FN? Because the upper came from a parts house, has no markings, and is nothing more than a flat top with a M4 profile barrel w/o markings.

I would rather hear the source referenced as follows: "We purchase our receivers from (insert name) manufacturing. They are the major supplier of AR-15 and M-16 receiver forgings in the United States. They supply receiver forgings for FN, Colt, and DPMS amoung others." Is that not more honest than "FN." Sure, it takes a bit more time but I think honesty pays a greater dividend than does a short cut.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 2:50:08 PM EDT
Well there are a few problems with disclosing the actual manufacturer. First off you would be disclosing your source for other vendors to find out, which could be cutting your own throat on some sales. Additionally and most importantly you would be breaking your confidentiality contract with your mfg. Another problem would be "well XYZ corp. says that they've never heard of ABC manufacturing, so someone's a liar, and since XYZ is a major manufacturer you're lying to me trying to make a sale."

The reason that we choose FN contractor instead of Colt contractor is that Colt has done many different modifications over the years and then the question of large pin/small pin, green/grey/black finish, M-4 notches, etc. It saves tons of questions and confusion to go around that issue unless you carry each of the variations that are/were offered (such as fire control parts).

The down side of this, like with anything, are the people who are not completely honest with their sources. These are the companies that give parts distributors bad names. We are attempting to combat this problem by having as many of the major components as possible with our names stamped on them (barrels, detachable carrying handles, hi-rise flattops, our new flattop scope mounts, and soon A-2 and probably flattop uppers as well).

Dr. J - you are correct on the M-4's, Colt is the only company that has a U.S. Military contract for them.
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 6:55:04 AM EDT
When if ever was bushmaster a contractor for the government?
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 9:09:24 AM EDT
Bushy did a run of M4 carbines for the military around the time of Desert Storm, because Colt couldn't fill the order. There was a big snafu over the manufacturing rights and data packages to the M4, which ended up with Colt receiving sole-source justification on M4's after that Bushmaster production run. Either DoD or Bushmaster paid Colt for use of their intellectual property for that one run of M4's, and DoD agreed not to let any other contractor make M4's without Colt's permission (and probably royalty/licensing payments).

At least, this is what I read about the issue on subguns...

There were a few posts a couple years ago here, where active duty personnel mentioned seeing the snake on their issue rifles. If I recall correctly, the number of bushmaster carbines produced was a few thousand.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 1:52:08 PM EDT
Bushmaster, Colt, FN, Olympic Arms, Armalite are all current Contractors for the governemnt. Only Colt and FN sell complete M16 family weapons. Bushmaster sells the National Match "Spec" rifle to the Military. Any of these manufacturers could sell complete firearms to the Military under an "open purchase" type agreement ot if they can not get the stocked item through the normal supply system. Regular Line Units can not just "go out" and buy whatever strikes their fancy with the exception of Special Forces, and even then they have to really justify their reasons.
Originally Posted By Droog: When if ever was bushmaster a contractor for the government?
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