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Posted: 11/20/2005 11:58:39 AM EDT
Just curious.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 1:56:03 PM EDT
I recently took a carbine class from Scott Reitz, of ITTS (International Tactical Training Seminars). Mr. Reitz is the primary instructor for the LAPD Metro and SWAT, one of the oldest and most active SWAT units in the country. Great instructor and a great class.

He recommended that you use 2 lights on your carbine. His opinion was that if you need a light, you REALLY need a light. Lights can go down and batteries can die. His opinion is probably based on the extended call outs SWAT units handle but it makes sense for civilians too. The military has a saying "Two is one, one is none".

Prior to this I used to run just one light but based on his recommendation, I added a second light to my CQB AR15. I got rid of the big 9 volt SF light and started running 2 smaller 6 volt SF lights, one with a tape switch and one with a click switch. There is not much difference in the weight and I can run both if I want a lot of light or just one at a time. Of course, YMMV.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 3:42:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 4:58:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JackMcC:
I recently took a carbine class from Scott Reitz, of ITTS (International Tactical Training Seminars). Mr. Reitz is the primary instructor for the LAPD Metro and SWAT, one of the oldest and most active SWAT units in the country. Great instructor and a great class.

He recommended that you use 2 lights on your carbine. His opinion was that if you need a light, you REALLY need a light. Lights can go down and batteries can die. His opinion is probably based on the extended call outs SWAT units handle but it makes sense for civilians too. The military has a saying "Two is one, one is none".

Prior to this I used to run just one light but based on his recommendation, I added a second light to my CQB AR15. I got rid of the big 9 volt SF light and started running 2 smaller 6 volt SF lights, one with a tape switch and one with a click switch. There is not much difference in the weight and I can run both if I want a lot of light or just one at a time. Of course, YMMV.



+10000000
Can't be said any better, it's like an insurance policy for those thing that go bump in the night.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 7:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2005 7:46:21 PM EDT by merlin7782]
Other than just "looking cool" on a weapon, what purpose does a tac light serve in the cilivan world anyways?? just wonder.. unless you hunt at night or something like that..
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:13:43 PM EDT
Yea, most crime is in broad daylight...

Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:26:34 PM EDT
Civy's need tac-lights to combat crime?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:35:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
Civy's need tac-lights to combat crime?



If you come into my house at night and I kill the lights down stairs. I need a light to find your dumb ass.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2005 8:43:03 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]
merlin7782: No, you're right. That's why I run my AR w/o a flashhider. If a person comes in the house at night, I just fire a few shots at them so the flash will illuminate their face and I can see if it is a robber/murderer, or just my girlfriend coming up the stairs with a glass of water...

Why would you ask such a silly question?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:51:24 PM EDT
Right...... well, figured I'd ask.. Now I know that go2cnavy uses his tac-light to search his house for robbers, I think my question has been answered... combating crime..
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:57:10 PM EDT
The reasoning behind a tac light on a rifle is the same as the reasoning behind a flashlight period, to shine light where it is dark and see what is there...

Where is that pic of the "tac candle" when you need it...
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 8:58:32 PM EDT
At HSS SWAT Basic my instructors always said "Two is one and one is none". Food for thought I guess....
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 9:06:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snpr1:
At HSS SWAT Basic my instructors always said "Two is one and one is none". Food for thought I guess....




Off topic a little.....how was that course? Thinking of taking it next year if I can.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 9:10:17 PM EDT
I'm full aware of the purpose of a tac-light for military/police use. Being a former Marine I fully understand the combat side of them, but on the otherhand I was WONDERING (not starting flame war) what purpose they serve in the civilian world other than "looking cool".. I mean, you can give me the whole "looking for mean robbers" story all day, but other than walking around your house with a tac-light on making yourself a target for the "mean robber" what real purpose do they serve in the civilian world(otherthan looking cool ofcourse)?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 10:17:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
but other than walking around your house with a tac-light on making yourself a target for the "mean robber" what real purpose do they serve in the civilian world(otherthan looking cool ofcourse)?



If used properly, it's very effective...

If someone strobed a light out of no where in your face, you'll automatically shield your eyes...giving the person with the light an advantage.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 3:44:37 AM EDT
Lights are not for blinding people - it has been proven in numerous training scenarios. The BG ussualy can get a shot off at the light (even after being blinded). Try this in the dark and have somebody come at you in a DETERMINED way and see how little effect a bright light has. It will "stun/blind" him but not incapacitate him frm shooting you first.

Lights - in any application - can be valuable if done correctly. If not they are just a bullet magnet and will be a disadvantage. If soemone is in my house, I do not "clear" the house with a flashlight. I use it to defend my family in our safe room and the flashlight is to quickly identify target - that is it. Afterall, I do not care about the tv, etc - that is what insurance is for. The only reason it is mounted on my rifle is so both hands can hold the rifle. I would never mount a light on a pistol. The key is training with the light. I do not see the purpose in two lights, though - why not have three, or four? This is just MHO.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:00:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 4:01:45 AM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
I'm full aware of the purpose of a tac-light for military/police use. Being a former Marine I fully understand the combat side of them, but on the otherhand I was WONDERING (not starting flame war) what purpose they serve in the civilian world other than "looking cool".. I mean, you can give me the whole "looking for mean robbers" story all day, but other than walking around your house with a tac-light on making yourself a target for the "mean robber" what real purpose do they serve in the civilian world(otherthan looking cool ofcourse)?



This comes to mind:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=190118
Rule #4: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND BEYOND.

ROE's are different for military encounters than for any civilian ones. Most if not all use of lethal force in this country requires that the person employing such force is certain that use of such force is necessary. W/o a light, more than half of the time you're at a disadvantage in the event you encounter such a situation. It's a pretty cheap insurance policy to identify a threat.

ETA: supposing a non-.mil, non-leo gets into a situation where they need to fire their rifle at someone to protect life. no matter who they are, it IS a combat situation, if even for just a few seconds.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 6:20:38 AM EDT
If you don't clear your house with a light, then how do you see in the dark. I am not insinuating that you leave the damn think in the on position and walk around the house. "Hello BG, here I am, the guy with the BF flashlight." I am talking about short bursts to illum area temporarliy for ID purposes.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 6:27:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 7:15:25 AM EDT
One on your long arm, one on your sidearm, one hand held. Thats plenty. Use for target ID.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 7:27:46 AM EDT
NEVER!

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 7:32:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
Other than just "looking cool" on a weapon, what purpose does a tac light serve in the cilivan world anyways?? just wonder.. unless you hunt at night or something like that..



It's PAINFULLY obvious you have never had any DECENT firearms training. Especially low light instruction.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:30:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
Other than just "looking cool" on a weapon, what purpose does a tac light serve in the cilivan world anyways?? just wonder.. unless you hunt at night or something like that..



It's PAINFULLY obvious you have never had any DECENT firearms training. Especially low light instruction.



We could all use more low light training (not just practice) and instruction...

My second light is a handheld.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:31:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:47:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 8:48:18 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

Where do you put your turn signals?



On the back of my helmet!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:50:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 9:51:11 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
My backup light is my handheld E2e. Yes, I've practiced using a handheld with my carbine and it works pretty well in a pinch.

As was mentioned above the #1 reason to use a weapon light in the "civy" world is to properly identify your target before your shoot.

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 11:56:53 AM EDT
Well there markm, glad to see you have a full copy of my resume.. I'm fully aware of the use of a tac-light for MILITARY use, but for civy use there isn't one really, other than "wow, look how cool this light looks on my ar-15'.. You can clear you entire house if you want, doesn't mean it serves a purpose for civilan use.. I'm assuming you and the other para-military wanna-bes on this site saw a TLC show and you are now fully versed and trained for combat on all terrians with your cool lil tac lights mounted on your weapons... Aperently you've missed the point of my question and it seems there isn't one an answer except "looks cool"..
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:01:12 PM EDT
Rumor is SF was using two lights per rifle in the caves of the Hindu Kush because the missions often outlasted the run time on one set of batteries.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:36:01 PM EDT
As I stated earlier. I do not "clear" my house. The light is only for quick target identification and getting something out of the fridge late at night. These are both definitely sound civilian uses of light. If you knew me or saw me, you would tell I do not care about looking cool (except I refuse to to be seen in an ElComino).

I know your response was not directed at me, but I disagree that there is not a civilian use of light. I think what I have stated is a valid and appropriate use of the light.

I do agree that many many people get them (and a lot other dingle-balls) because they are tactical and cool and would not have a clue which end to point away if it were not for instruction manuals. These idiots should not negate the practical civilian use of a light for the rest of us. With the right training and practice they are a valuable tool.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:55:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
Well there markm, glad to see you have a full copy of my resume.. I'm fully aware of the use of a tac-light for MILITARY use, but for civy use there isn't one really, other than "wow, look how cool this light looks on my ar-15'.. You can clear you entire house if you want, doesn't mean it serves a purpose for civilan use.. I'm assuming you and the other para-military wanna-bes on this site saw a TLC show and you are now fully versed and trained for combat on all terrians with your cool lil tac lights mounted on your weapons... Aperently you've missed the point of my question and it seems there isn't one an answer except "looks cool"..



I tried this approach once, and didn't get very far. I guess it's my turn to get the popcorn and sit back and watch the shit fly.

If you had to ask, then you probably won't understand a legitimate answer.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 12:59:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 1:01:10 PM EDT by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
As I stated earlier. I do not "clear" my house. The light is only for quick target identification and getting something out of the fridge late at night. These are both definitely sound civilian uses of light. If you knew me or saw me, you would tell I do not care about looking cool (except I refuse to to be seen in an ElComino).

I know your response was not directed at me, but I disagree that there is not a civilian use of light. I think what I have stated is a valid and appropriate use of the light.

I do agree that many many people get them (and a lot other dingle-balls) because they are tactical and cool and would not have a clue which end to point away if it were not for instruction manuals. These idiots should not negate the practical civilian use of a light for the rest of us. With the right training and practice they are a valuable tool.


+1 (to the sentiment)

If I could figure out a way to gain a tactical advantage with it, I'd be all for mounting a spork...... if not, I wouldn't. Simple as that.

Merlin, it sounds like you're dead-set against using them (or haven't yet seen/read the responses, vis a vis target ID). That's fine by me.

Personally, I don't have a mounted light. It would be a bell/whistle to me. Others have them, for many reasons. Some for cosmetic purposes, as you alluded. Others, because they are *functional*. And many reasons in between. If someone believes it gives them a tactical advantage, I won't begrudge them that.

At this point, I'm not sure if your question was:
a) rhetorical (you know the "correct" answer and there's nothing anyone can say to change your mind)
b) really a question.

If "b," and you were really, sincerely asking the question, then it has already been answered, somewhat, and the only question remaining is: has it been answered to your satisfaction (personally, I'd like to hear anyone else's justifications, above and beyond target ID, but if that's all anyone's got, that's fine, too).


ETA: highlighting (aids in clarity)
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:15:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
As I stated earlier. I do not "clear" my house. The light is only for quick target identification and getting something out of the fridge late at night. These are both definitely sound civilian uses of light. If you knew me or saw me, you would tell I do not care about looking cool (except I refuse to to be seen in an ElComino).

I know your response was not directed at me, but I disagree that there is not a civilian use of light. I think what I have stated is a valid and appropriate use of the light.

I do agree that many many people get them (and a lot other dingle-balls) because they are tactical and cool and would not have a clue which end to point away if it were not for instruction manuals. These idiots should not negate the practical civilian use of a light for the rest of us. With the right training and practice they are a valuable tool.



Thats a good answer.. I'm not against using them, I don't seem a realistic point in civy's needing one. I mean, some do look awesome but it's unlikely most will be using them out side of that. They are a valuble tool in combat, but they are kinda expensive for the "cool factor". If I truely need one outside of the military I'd use my maglight and some duct tape.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:30:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
If I truely need one outside of the military I'd use my maglight and some duct tape.



Every trainer I've ever gone to advocates the mounted light, even for civilians. If you don't know the problems with Maglights on AR's, you are beyond my help. Thanks for fucking this thread.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:35:04 PM EDT
Rgr that.... Anytime
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 1:52:13 PM EDT
I think its obvious someone opened a troll account from the resposnes give the fact he was told "target ID" about 6 times then still made refferences to "cool factor" and "duct tapping a Maglight" etc. It would be nice if troll accounts in the technical forums would just be locked. This sounds like it could get as bad as the suppressed 9mm self defense carbine thread.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:01:21 PM EDT
funny you should ask this...I just recieve my UPS package today which included (among other things) a rail for the front sight tower so I can (if need be) mount the 2 Surefire G2's I have at the same time or individually. Seeing as how I already had the rings and shock-isolated bezels and pressure switches for them...I'm a pretty happy camper.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:06:17 PM EDT
Right.... I'm not to hip on forum lingo so I'm not go to respond to the troll thing.. Target ID of what? Unless your one of those home defense wacko's who believes that chinas going to invade your house then yes, you might need one. All I did was ask a question and some para-military wannabe's blew it up... The fact still remains that spending $200- $800 on a light for you weapon is kinda a waste for the "cool factor" (unless your the one stated above).. All I got was target ID (Civy's really dont need to run around ID targets unless the unlikely or improbable happens) not here to fight, was simple question and people can't handle anyone who thinks different from them...
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:08:15 PM EDT
Weapons lights are not just useful for finding a suspect in a house, that happens to be hiding in a dark corner, as some of you say. I personally have one on my civilian rifle so i can use it as a non-lethal weapon. If someone attacks me i will use my weapons light to blind them. This is the same reason cops always use their flashlight when they have encounters with civilians. The suspect/civilian cannot tell exactly where the officer is, due to his night vision just being turned to shit. If someone were to break into my house at night, i would use my weapon light to blind them, and hopefully end the situation peacefully. I personally don't feel like going to court to argue self defense. I have better uses for my time.
So in short, my weaopns light is used as a non-lethal weapon, and as a way to "find suspects in a dark corner."
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:09:09 PM EDT
Until you have an idea of what you are talking about, QFT.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:13:16 PM EDT
I keep the X200 or M3X on my belt for the pistol anyway. NEver thought about my 500$ surefire not working though..... But that's why we have bajillions of rails and handgun lights. I guess if the SF went down the handgun light could go on the rifle.

But then agian, if there's even a remote possiblity my srefires can break, why did I pay 450$, 450$ and 500$ for them?
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:17:06 PM EDT
The sad part is, I do know what I'm talking about.. I assume you people are used to everyone agreeing and people NOT having an experenced outlook on REAL life.. I'll leave you people alone to ID your targets and Blind those robbers and/or chinamen...
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:17:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
I'm full aware of the purpose of a tac-light for military/police use. Being a former Marine I fully understand the combat side of them, but on the otherhand I was WONDERING (not starting flame war) what purpose they serve in the civilian world other than "looking cool".. I mean, you can give me the whole "looking for mean robbers" story all day, but other than walking around your house with a tac-light on making yourself a target for the "mean robber" what real purpose do they serve in the civilian world(otherthan looking cool ofcourse)?



Target ID. I am not going to just start shooting when I hear something; I need to be %100 sure it is an attacker before I fire. And when I do hit him with my light, 225 lumens of blinding white light give me a milisecond advantage.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 2:23:42 PM EDT by Hayseed_40]
Who says you have to spend $200 for a light mounted.

I have $35 in the Vltor mount and a free 65lumens Pelican light (the new 3w M6 LED) and mine will work just as well as the $200 set-ups for its intended purpose. If I had to buy the light - it would have been aprox $100. Noetheless, a G2 ($35) would work more than peachy.

You made your point of people spending more than they need to on lights. But you still have not given a coherent answer on why civilians do not need a light. I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt so far, but everybody is right about you if you think civilians do not need target ID. My rifle is set-up for the worst case that I may run into - and for that I need a light (and yes I will be ready if China invades my house). I do not advocate for civilians to "run around" looking for a fight and I do not think others are either. It is for target ID in a defensive situation. You may agrue that clearing a house is not defensive - but the target ID people are referring to is defensive SD.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:23:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
But then agian, if there's even a remote possiblity my srefires can break, why did I pay 450$, 450$ and 500$ for them?


Anything can break.
The batteries can run down, the lamp can die, the switch can break.

Shit happens.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 2:53:43 PM EDT
This thread just went down the shitter...
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 3:54:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
But then agian, if there's even a remote possiblity my srefires can break, why did I pay 450$, 450$ and 500$ for them?



One of the local PD Officer's had his X200A break recently. One of the contacts inside the light broke completely off. It's headed back to Surefire for repair. So...It happens. The point of paying the price for SF products is that it happens much less, and they stand behind it when it does.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:14:38 PM EDT
Sounds like Merlin has something against civilians, since he keeps referring to them as "civies" in stead of "people." I used to do that, about 7 years ago when I first joined the military. Since then I've learned better.

lights on a rifle? hell yes. wish I could afford two. guess I'll stick with my "looking cool" LAS/TAC laser from Brightflashlights, and my G2 with tape switch.

Then again, if I really wanted to ruin your day, I'd just put on my $3200 Gen 3 MUM night vision, and leave the lights off. Do I need this stuff? No. But in the AR15.com tradition, we don't need anything that can be found on this site, but it's our right to have it, and have it the way we want, 'cuz this is Burger King damnit, and I'm having it MY way.

Now go piss off with your "civies" crap, and learn to read more, or understand a different point of view. You come in my house after the hours of darkness, you never know what you're gonna get.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 5:11:30 PM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
The sad part is, I do know what I'm talking about..



Yeah! That's obvious!


I assume you people are used to everyone agreeing and people NOT having an experienced outlook on REAL life.. I'll leave you people alone to ID your targets and Blind those robbers and/or chinamen...


OK! You must have the best lawyer in the world or Diplomatic Immunity if you aren't burdened with the annoying task of actually identifying what/whom you shoot! You should start a TACTICAL SCHOOL, Pecker head!

Edit to fix your spelling! You're obviously a highly trained operator who pays attention to detail!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:37:07 PM EDT
Holy crap, I see the mentality of the people I’m dealing with here. Have fun with your toys kids.
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 5:42:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By merlin7782:
The sad part is, I do know what I'm talking about..



Yeah! That's obvious! h=85%

I assume you people are used to everyone agreeing and people NOT having an experienced outlook on REAL life.. I'll leave you people alone to ID your targets and Blind those robbers and/or chinamen...


OK! You must have the best lawyer in the world or Diplomatic Immunity if you aren't burdened with the annoying task of actually identifying what/whom you shoot! You should start a TACTICAL SCHOOL, Pecker head! highly



That could quite possibly be the most ridicules thing I’ve ever seen someone type…
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:34:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Originally Posted By Snpr1:
At HSS SWAT Basic my instructors always said "Two is one and one is none". Food for thought I guess....




Off topic a little.....how was that course? Thinking of taking it next year if I can.

Thanks.



IM sent....if I didn't answer all your ?s email me.
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