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Posted: 12/2/2002 6:53:22 AM EDT
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something, but I see ALOT of weapons now with flashlights on them.

I cannot see the wisdom in this for many situations, especially for CQC.

HELLO, I'm over HERE, see my flashlight beam waving around in the darkness!!! HEY, shoot over HERE. Look, I'll even backlight myself so you can get a outline in your reticle to help you aim at me.

Is there EVER a good time to use a flashlight that is mounted to your weapon?

Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:24:20 AM EDT
Target Identification..Friend or Foe..16 year old son sneaking in after staying out too late or crackhead after your stereo. In professional cicles shooting teammates is frowned on. Also given the intensity of some of the weapons mounted lights out there its unlikely you're goning to be able to see at all much less pick up your sights.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:56:59 PM EDT
If white lights are such a useless feature Id like to hear how you would clear a dark building without one. This should be good...
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 1:28:33 PM EDT
The main idea of lights on guns is for target ID. The other thing is that you don't want a crappy one. You want one with a pressure switch. You don't turn on your light until you need to ID something. If it isn't anything, you turn the light off and immediately move.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 2:44:49 PM EDT
I guarantee you if someone lights you up with, say, an M500A, you won't be able to SEE your sights, or anything else for about ten seconds after the light goes out. The point is, you don't go walking around with the light on. If you think you see a potential target, you aim the weapon (with light still turned off) at the target and then turn it on (via pressure switch). You then can fire if it's a bad guy or not kill whoever it turns out to be as needed. If it's nothing at all, it's lights out and move immediately. A cheapo light is not an option for this kind of use though.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 3:19:21 PM EDT
Target ID. A lot of the High Intensity lights are also used as incapictants. Those lights are so bright they can literaly blind someone for quite some time.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:15:55 PM EDT
bvmjethead Great question. This is a bit like trying to teaching me how to fly an F14 through a correspondence course. Although that’s how I got my Trident from the Navy…. Illumination tools are a 2-edged sword. They can cut back quite easily when improperly deployed. In and of themselves they cannot get the job done. They must have intelligent “piloting”. I have been working with law enforcement officers and military teams for almost 2 decades on low-light environments. Using white light or IR illumination for that matter is an art and a science. No clean answers what situation you should or should not illuminate. Not illuminating in some cases is just as deadly to you or friendly forces as illuminating. White light tools are [b]particularly[/b] effective in CQC. Even in open terrain they have a place. Special Forces operators in Afganistan are using them extensively in the terrain they finds themselves in. Look for Principles of combat in all that you do as opposed to just techniques that should be a reflection of proper principle understanding. Here a few Basic Lighting Principles to find and apply. [b]1. Read the Lighting Conditions[/b] a. Are your eyes dark adapted? b. Are you in a darker spot than your potential threat? c. Are you backlit, creating a silhouette? d. My mind: All dark holes have Guns….ferret these threats out with short chaotic, difficult to read light bursts. Passing them hoping somebody is not there can be deadly. [b]2. Move to the lowest level of Light whenever possible[/b] a. Fight\Search from a position of advantage [b]3. See from the opposite perspective. [/b] a. Much like a sniper on the battlefield, you must see yourself as an opponent does. Sometimes when you see nothing but darkness in front of you, you mistakenly believe the same is holding in reverse…If you are silohetted, you must emit blinding front light. Much like a police officer who trains his/her spotlights on a suspect vehicle during a night time roadside stop. [b]4. Light and Move when threats are not located[/b] a. Constant displacement b. The threat should see a firefly, not an incoming Jetliner c. Picture a boxer in ring getting his distance and timing with an opponent. Don’t try to get it all at once. Only bite off what you can chew so to speak. 5. Once the environment is understood, (angles, cover, concealment, entries, exits, furniture, crawlspaces, etc.) and the threat is located – [b]Tend toward Powering with Light. [/b]Overwhelm your opponent with input. Think jamming radar. a. Attempt to temporarily blind opponents by 10 ringing them with a brilliant flash to the eyes. 1. Move again if you have to based on what you just saw b. The idea here is not to let a threat get to a better position unnoticed or without retribution [b]6. Disorient through Oscillation: [/b] The Effects of Rapid Oscillating Light on Subjects From the Strategos Intl's - A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Prevailing in Low Light Conditions - Student Manual One of the most stressful things you can do to a human being is subject them to flashing Lights. See Bruce Sittel’s PPCT manual. Experiment with rapidly moving the light across the eyes when approaching a suspect for a takedown during arrest and control. Note, we are not referring to on-off-on-off, we are referring to white light that came from a loosely held flashlight that was vigorously shaken to produce a strobe light type effect. When the light is used in this manner, it is extremely disorienting and can bring rapid compliance. Experiment with creating a light show of pulsing, moving, constantly changing angles of emissions when approaching danger areas. This type of application makes your exact distance, height and approach speed extremely difficult for the opponent to read. IPS – Intermittent Photic Stimulation first used and studied in 1934 by Adrian and Matthews. They studied the effects of IPS on the human EEG (electro-encephalogram) First true use of electronic strobe light made by Walter in 1946. He discovered and recorded on an EEG the activation of paroxysmal discharges in association with IPS. Bickford, 1979, documents using a Grass Instrument Co. light, called model PS-1, which produced 1,500,000 candlepower. His frequency ranged from 1-50/sec and he tested subject with both open and closed eyelids. Distance from light to subject 30cm. Duration of flashing: 5 sec. 3 Main types of effects [b]1st - Photic Driving: [/b] rhythmic EEG activity elicited over posterior regions of head by IPS frequencies of 5-30/sec. More often occurs in patients. treated with lithium, and those with psychosis and epilepsy. [b]2nd - Photomyoclonic Response: [/b] spikes of repetitive muscle activity over the anterior regions of the head. Increase in amplitude as the IPS continues and cease promptly when stimulus is withdrawn. Frequently manifested by involuntary fluttering of the eyelids and vertical oscillation of the eyeballs, sometimes with discrete facial muscle jerking. (Chatrian et al., 1974) Most effective triggering frequency: 12-18/sec (Niedermeyer et al., 1979) Occurs more often when muscular tension is present. Gastaut reports that PMR was found in 0.3% normal subjects (range of 0.1 – 0.8%), 3% of patients with epilepsy, 13% pts. With brain stem lesion, 17% in patients with psychiatric disorder. PMR enhanced in: alcoholics, and those undergoing drug withdrawal [b]3rd - Photoconvulsive Response: [/b] response to IPS characterized by multiple spike and wave complexes that are bi-lateral, synchronous, symmetrical, and generalized and may out last the stimulus by several seconds. Associated with impairment of consciousness, and brisk jerking of the musculature of the whole body. PCR is most frequently induced by 15/sec with the eyes closed. Eye closure seems to activate PCR. A change from central gaze to lateral gaze diminishes the effect. Higher rate of PCR obtained with a red colored flicker than ordinary strobe. Intermittent Photic Stimulation - FAUCI, Anthony S., et al: Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, 14th ed. New York, McGraw-Hill, 1998 - NIEDERMEYER E, LOPES Da Silva F (eds): Electroencephalograph: Basic Principles, Clinical Application and Related Fields, 2nd ed. Baltimore/Muncih, Urban & Schwarzenburg,1987 - AMINOFF MJ (ed): Electrodiagnosis in Clinical Neurology, 3rd ed. New York, Churchill Livingstone, 1992 ______________________________ Just demonstrated this effect on an officer during a Physical Conflict Resolution (PCR) course last week. I oscillated the light across his eyes, while my partner took him down. We asked what he experienced, he simply could not respond for a few seconds as he was completely disoriented. It looked like somebody unplugged him for a second and now he was trying to power back up. [b]7. Align 3 things at all times, Eye, Weapon and Light beam[/b] a. You would be surprised how often this alignment is compromised during searches or when threats are located. [b]8. Carry more than one lighting tool[/b] a. One is none, two is one. Other than that, nothing really going on. Actually, there is much, much more. I will leave you with this, I cannot count the number of folks who have attended our training and started the week with, you turn that weapon light on and I will gun you down. I simply reply with, “You have got the easy part over with…the talking.” :D Many have a few personal epiphanies during the week.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:59:56 PM EDT
Damn Ken, all I can say is class dismissed! Thanks for the lesson!!! [X]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 6:36:43 PM EDT
Just watch one of the Surefire videos on their site and you will see all the lights flicking like fireflies. My first thought was "Damn I wouldnt know what to shoot at first!" I still want to know what the poster thinks is superior to flashlights for searchjing dark buildings.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:15:02 PM EDT
That was probably one of the most informative & insightful posts I've ever read. (Actually I read it three times.) Thanks Ken!
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:52:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 8:55:08 PM EDT by bvmjethead]
Originally Posted By DevL: If white lights are such a useless feature Id like to hear how you would clear a dark building without one. This should be good...
View Quote
Devl, I never said they were useless. In my limited experience with CQC, turning on some light in a dark building with armed, dug in men hiding in there, seemed a rather dangerous thing to do. For one thing if I were in the shadows and you came in there and flicked a light on for just a second or so, I'd FILL the area the light was coming from with hot lead, move and ask questions later. But like I said with my limited experience that might or might not be a fatal move on my part. Ken gave more of an answer I was looking for. I've read it through once, and will again in the morning. I'll probably have more questions then. I did not mean to be inflamatory with my original post, although I will admit after reading it again, it could be interpreted as somewhat abrasive if read in the right mood. Just looking for education. Thanks Ken for the effort that went into this reply. I WILL read it again and again. I'm determined to get something out of everything.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:14:45 PM EDT
Im not flaming you but it seems like you are putting down tac lights and have zero ideas for what to do instead. Should the cops just walk around in the dark when clearing buildings? Should they yell out to shadowy figures to get them to identify themselves? Tac lights may no be perfect but they are the best tool available for the job. Everyone who has tried NV indoors will tell you they will get you killed indoors because lights are much, much faster. If you had a 5 man squad with PVS 14s and a 5 man squad with Surefires the flashlight equiped group would clean up in confined indoor areas because of the limited field of view offered by night vision devises. Outdoors however youd be a fool to use visable lights if you have NV and IR lasers at your disposal.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:04:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: ...For one thing if I were in the shadows and you came in there and flicked a light on for just a second or so, I'd FILL the area the light was coming from with hot lead, move and ask questions later...
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Jet, please read the above statment over and think about how completely irresponsible it is for any person to react in such a manner. I'm sure the scenario you envision in your mind when making such a statement justifies this type of action. But please realize reality will very likely be quite different from your vision. In reality, all you really know at that point is someone with a light is near you. Armed only with that info, are you ready to start shooting into the dark? Not me and I hope not you...
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 3:17:57 AM EDT
We teach the use of inidrect and ambient lighting as your primary light sources for clearing buildings. There is often enough light to clear a building, even in darkened conditions, with little supplemental light. When you do need more, you can create it by turning lights on or using your flashlight to create enough light. A flashlight strategically placed at you entry point often gives enough light to clear an entire floor of a building and to make shoot/don't shoot decisions and to acquire your sights. That's why we issue everyone two (or more) flashlights. When additional light is needed, we instruct that one of the officers other than the point officer use their flashlight and illuminate the ceiling or floor. This keeps the officers from being "pinpointed" by their light source, keeps them from being blinded by the light reflected from objects and keeps them from being backlit (generally), and provides plenty of light to make shoot/don't shoot decisions. That all being said, if you are armed with a long gun, you probably do need a direct white light to clear a building, and you will find one on mine. There are many situations that require direct lighting, such as checking a closet or under a bed. Weapon-mounted lights definintely have a place, but should be used sparingly, becuase they do identify your position. Once you start clearing a building, even with excellent noise and light discipline, if there is a BG in there, chances are they "know" that you are there (try this from the BG's perspective a few times and you will see what I am talking about), although they may not necessarily "know" exacty WHERE in the building you are. The BG has the advantages. The counter, is that if you use good tactics, you can still prevail and get the first accurate shot off, which is generally the one that wins the gunfight.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 7:32:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: ...For one thing if I were in the shadows and you came in there and flicked a light on for just a second or so, I'd FILL the area the light was coming from with hot lead, move and ask questions later...
View Quote
Jet, please read the above statment over and think about how completely irresponsible it is for any person to react in such a manner. I'm sure the scenario you envision in your mind when making such a statement justifies this type of action. But please realize reality will very likely be quite different from your vision. In reality, all you really know at that point is someone with a light is near you. Armed only with that info, are you ready to start shooting into the dark? Not me and I hope not you...
View Quote
New AR Guy, You're right, I stand corrected. How can I possibly determine that this source of light is my enemy without illuminating him/her with something. I think that because of my lack of training in tactical lighting usage, I've made a snap judgement. Ken's post is most informative and I'm "seeing the light" on tactical lighting more than ever now.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 4:36:54 PM EDT
Police and civilians have an absolute requirement to identify the target before killing it. Shooting your drunken brother is different then shooting a rapist (unless you really know my brother [:D]. Cops shooting some gang banger's 50 year old mother hiding in the basement is a bad thing (normally) rather then the fleeing banger. The only exception I know of is to return fire when fired upon (or having other deadly force used against you). Second point is that you don’t wander around waving the light around. Tactics dictate that the light is used momentarily and then following the shots movement is made to other cover. Shine, shoot and scoot.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 7:26:29 PM EDT
Wow, Paul, do they give you a free AR when you get to 10K posts or something. [:D] They ought to. I've never seen anyone with that many posts on any forum. You are the man. No dis man I'm serious.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 8:13:58 PM EDT
Go to General Discussion and see how many posts EricTheHun has!!!
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 12:22:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kenjgood: bvmjethead Great question. This is a bit like trying to teaching me how to fly an F14 through a correspondence course. Although that’s how I got my Trident from the Navy…. Illumination tools are a 2-edged sword. They can cut back quite easily when improperly deployed. In and of themselves they cannot get the job done. They must have intelligent “piloting”. I have been working with law enforcement officers and military teams for almost 2 decades on low-light environments. Using white light or IR illumination for that matter is an art and a science. No clean answers what situation you should or should not illuminate. Not illuminating in some cases is just as deadly to you or friendly forces as illuminating. White light tools are [b]particularly[/b] effective in CQC. Even in open terrain they have a place. Special Forces operators in Afganistan are using them extensively in the terrain they finds themselves in. Look for Principles of combat in all that you do as opposed to just techniques that should be a reflection of proper principle understanding. Here a few Basic Lighting Principles to find and apply. [b]1. Read the Lighting Conditions[/b] a. Are your eyes dark adapted? b. Are you in a darker spot than your potential threat? c. Are you backlit, creating a silhouette? d. My mind: All dark holes have Guns….ferret these threats out with short chaotic, difficult to read light bursts. Passing them hoping somebody is not there can be deadly. [b]2. Move to the lowest level of Light whenever possible[/b] a. Fight\Search from a position of advantage [b]3. See from the opposite perspective. [/b] a. Much like a sniper on the battlefield, you must see yourself as an opponent does. Sometimes when you see nothing but darkness in front of you, you mistakenly believe the same is holding in reverse…If you are silohetted, you must emit blinding front light. Much like a police officer who trains his/her spotlights on a suspect vehicle during a night time roadside stop. [b]4. Light and Move when threats are not located[/b] a. Constant displacement b. The threat should see a firefly, not an incoming Jetliner c. Picture a boxer in ring getting his distance and timing with an opponent. Don’t try to get it all at once. Only bite off what you can chew so to speak. 5. Once the environment is understood, (angles, cover, concealment, entries, exits, furniture, crawlspaces, etc.) and the threat is located – [b]Tend toward Powering with Light. [/b]Overwhelm your opponent with input. Think jamming radar. a. Attempt to temporarily blind opponents by 10 ringing them with a brilliant flash to the eyes. 1. Move again if you have to based on what you just saw b. The idea here is not to let a threat get to a better position unnoticed or without retribution [b]6. Disorient through Oscillation: [/b] The Effects of Rapid Oscillating Light on Subjects From the Strategos Intl's - A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Prevailing in Low Light Conditions - Student Manual One of the most stressful things you can do to a human being is subject them to flashing Lights. See Bruce Sittel’s PPCT manual. Experiment with rapidly moving the light across the eyes when approaching a suspect for a takedown during arrest and control. Note, we are not referring to on-off-on-off, we are referring to white light that came from a loosely held flashlight that was vigorously shaken to produce a strobe light type effect. When the light is used in this manner, it is extremely disorienting and can bring rapid compliance. Experiment with creating a light show of pulsing, moving, constantly changing angles of emissions when approaching danger areas. This type of application makes your exact distance, height and approach speed extremely difficult for the opponent to read. IPS – Intermittent Photic Stimulation first used and studied in 1934 by Adrian and Matthews. They studied the effects of IPS on the human EEG (electro-encephalogram) First true use of electronic strobe light made by Walter in 1946. He discovered and recorded on an EEG the activation of paroxysmal discharges in association with IPS. Bickford, 1979, documents using a Grass Instrument Co. light, called model PS-1, which produced 1,500,000 candlepower. His frequency ranged from 1-50/sec and he tested subject with both open and closed eyelids. Distance from light to subject 30cm. Duration of flashing: 5 sec. 3 Main types of effects [b]1st - Photic Driving: [/b] rhythmic EEG activity elicited over posterior regions of head by IPS frequencies of 5-30/sec. More often occurs in patients. treated with lithium, and those with psychosis and epilepsy. [b]2nd - Photomyoclonic Response: [/b] spikes of repetitive muscle activity over the anterior regions of the head. Increase in amplitude as the IPS continues and cease promptly when stimulus is withdrawn. Frequently manifested by involuntary fluttering of the eyelids and vertical oscillation of the eyeballs, sometimes with discrete facial muscle jerking. (Chatrian et al., 1974) Most effective triggering frequency: 12-18/sec (Niedermeyer et al., 1979) Occurs more often when muscular tension is present. Gastaut reports that PMR was found in 0.3% normal subjects (range of 0.1 – 0.8%), 3% of patients with epilepsy, 13% pts. With brain stem lesion, 17% in patients with psychiatric disorder. PMR enhanced in: alcoholics, and those undergoing drug withdrawal [b]3rd - Photoconvulsive Response: [/b] response to IPS characterized by multiple spike and wave complexes that are bi-lateral, synchronous, symmetrical, and generalized and may out last the stimulus by several seconds. Associated with impairment of consciousness, and brisk jerking of the musculature of the whole body. PCR is most frequently induced by 15/sec with the eyes closed. Eye closure seems to activate PCR. A change from central gaze to lateral gaze diminishes the effect. Higher rate of PCR obtained with a red colored flicker than ordinary strobe. Intermittent Photic Stimulation - FAUCI, Anthony S., et al: Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, 14th ed. New York, McGraw-Hill, 1998 - NIEDERMEYER E, LOPES Da Silva F (eds): Electroencephalograph: Basic Principles, Clinical Application and Related Fields, 2nd ed. Baltimore/Muncih, Urban & Schwarzenburg,1987 - AMINOFF MJ (ed): Electrodiagnosis in Clinical Neurology, 3rd ed. New York, Churchill Livingstone, 1992 ______________________________ Just demonstrated this effect on an officer during a Physical Conflict Resolution (PCR) course last week. I oscillated the light across his eyes, while my partner took him down. We asked what he experienced, he simply could not respond for a few seconds as he was completely disoriented. It looked like somebody unplugged him for a second and now he was trying to power back up. [b]7. Align 3 things at all times, Eye, Weapon and Light beam[/b] a. You would be surprised how often this alignment is compromised during searches or when threats are located. [b]8. Carry more than one lighting tool[/b] a. One is none, two is one. Other than that, nothing really going on. Actually, there is much, much more. I will leave you with this, I cannot count the number of folks who have attended our training and started the week with, you turn that weapon light on and I will gun you down. I simply reply with, “You have got the easy part over with…the talking.” :D Many have a few personal epiphanies during the week.
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After reading this post, I remembered an article I read last week. Sure enough you were the author. Good work.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 11:43:15 AM EDT
Jethead was saying something about the 'turning on the light in a darkened area with dug in men' and how he would fill the light source with lead... If you are going into a hostile area, expecting lethal resistence, it's call a flashbang or five... You only use the lights (as covered a hundred times by now) for quick target ID. If you are expecting such trouble, use flashbangs or pepper grenades (a lot easier for civvies to get pepper grenades (and more friendly to one's home) than flash bangs)... =)
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 7:59:59 PM EDT
If you have a TACTICAL light, you must know how to use it TACTICALLY! For a lot of us LEO's, darkness IS our danger. We don't use light to identify us, INTENTIONALLY, but rather to identify potential threats.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 5:49:02 PM EDT
Slightly different tact: Got to talking about this emission concept the other day with one of my instructors and I realized something – Name a fight that emission of energy is not present. Somebody is emitting or there would not be fight. Self-defense Battlefield Hand-to-Hand CQB Environments Air-to-Air Fights Major Ground Engagements Nuclear Exchanges Dominance for critical parts of Electromagnetic Spectrum on the Battlefield in paramount is modern warfare. We “Blinded” the Iraqis’ by knocking out key command and control/communications facilities prior to the full scale kick-off of Desert Storm – You find these facilities by “listening” to the appropriate parts of the ELM spectrum to determine origin – then you attack that origin. Anybody who spent any time on the ground in the military knows that keying a communications system could spell disaster in the wrong place and at the wrong time. It is called triangulation. As a combatant you are a manager/director of energy, plain and simple. You only have so much mental and physical energy units to expend over X amount of time. As it relates to warfare, mankind in general spends a great deal of time and effort to maximize efficient energy storage and release while simultaneously putting those energy units in ever-smaller more portable packages. When, where, how much and for how long you and what form of energy you expend will spell the difference between life and death for you and those around you. In any fight if you choose to expend energy first, you must take into account the potential read-back signature of that energy that opponents can exploit. Picture a one-on-one hand-to-hand engagement. As the participants circle or square off to determine distance/timing relationships, it may pay dividends to strike first. Fast, hard, and unrelenting. On the other hand, a fool hearty over extension or pre-mature closure may result in a takedown, broken limb or death. It is a balancing game that is played in a compressed time frame. Everybody grasps the basic concept/strategy. White Light spectrum emissions are no different.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 8:23:47 PM EDT
Good point, but the vast majority of low-light "engagements, and particularly the ones some of us have to deal with on a frquent basis, have different and constrictive use-of-force considerations than a typical military situation (and even the military is having to adapt to modern sensibilities). For me, low-light enocunters have the POTENTIAL for deadly force, but I am far more likely to use no force, or les-lethal force (empty-hand control or chemical) than ever discharging a sidearm or carbine at another human being. My last several use-of-force encounters have been: -Detaining people during a warrant service, no physical force used; nightime and some indoor illumination; -Gas against a barricaded person; full daylight and a fully illuminated structure; -Arresting an unarmed burglar in a building after an alarm went off, no physical force used; night time, no illumination; -Arresting a combative drunk, empty hand control, night time, street lighting; -Arresting a combative drugged/drunk suspect; chemical and empty hand; night time, street illumination; -Arresting a robbery suspect, hand held chemical; daytime, outdoors. As you can see, I haven't had to, or had the legal authority to shoot anyone. The massively overwhelm your opponent thing sans warning is great for military units. The rest of us have to use lower levels of control. Lighting can even be a control measure. On a "fly-along" with an aviation unit at a major metropolitan PD this year, I had the pleasure of watching a crowd of gang members tagging a fence surrender to the nightsun-equipped helicopter; they knew it was pointless to run from the helicopter, and put their hands up and waitied for the ground units to roll up and take them into custody. The mere presence of overwhelming light, at times, is enough to gain compliance. On traffic stops at night, we go the polar opposite of EMCON; we create a "curtain of light" and hide behind it, using headlights, highbeams, takedowns, spotlights and strobes. An aggressive subject wnating to assault us can't find a target behind all of those lights, and either has to manuver out of their path, or wait for us to approach before they can target an officer.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:16:08 AM EDT
All I can say is this rule is absolutely retarded ("carry more than one lighting tool, 1 is none 2 is one") You might catch me with the weight of one Surefire on my Carbine (but there's a point at which a light becomes a liability (TOO MUCH WEIGHT) I have had times when (in training) a fight is hot and heavy and the adrenaline is flowing but you can still feel the weight of your unreasonably modded out weapon is beginning to bear down on you. Buy a good-dependable light. 1 is 1 (IF YOUR LIGHT IS WATERPROOF THERE'S NO WAY SHY OF SHRAPNEL THAT IT WILL FAIL YOU IN THE FEW SECONDS YOU NEED IT.) buy a cheapo light from WalMart and 2 might equal 1.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:02:46 AM EDT
I think the point was to have more than one light AVAILABLE, not more than one mounted to the weapon.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:26:03 AM EDT
If you can feel the weight of your rifle in a combat situation you are truly a weakling. Go hit the gym and report back once you can bench your body weight 10 times. OR Enlist and carry a SAW or M249 as your weapon. Oh youd have to pass the PT test first so I guess thats out for you. [rolleyes] As for the light it can run out of batteries or your bulb can fail. You need a back up hand held. A Surefire G2 will cost $30 weigh nothing and fit in your pocket.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 9:04:52 AM EDT
SMV, Just out of curiosity, what was the subject of the article you mentioned? Ken is obviously both well versed in the subject matter and clear when conveying his knowledge. I'd be interested in reading more of his material. E-95
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 2:39:36 PM EDT
That article is very informative. Is there any website that offers low-light shooting tactics? Any pictures of the Surefires in action. I'd like to see the differences in Lumens if possible. This could help me in my choice of a High-intesity light. 110
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 4:22:03 AM EDT
Carry more than one light. Retarded eh? Such hostility!!! Us mentally challenged folks understand that lamps fail, batteries drain, things get broken and/or lost under dynamic situations. I had a recent conversation with former Army Ranger who is now a veteran Chicago Police officer about this exact topic. He was chasing a perpetrator down a dark alley that the suspect apparently knew quite well. As we was trying to close the gap he found himself floating through space that ended up in a crash at the bottom of a 6’ deep hole. The firearm and the flashlight he was holding were no longer in his possession as he instinctively used his hands to break his fall. For almost 45 seconds he had no idea where his weapon or illumination tool was. He has groping around on his hands and knees totally vulnerable during the entire time until he retrieved his handgun. He eventually found his flashlight. He now carries a small backup light…..What a retard! I can cite quite a few other examples of the wisdom of considering adhering to this concept. More stuff I wrote: [url]http://www.strategosintl.com/reading.html[/url] Also if you are in law enforcement, I have created a 4-color, 164 page manual in Adobe PDF format. Email me [email]ken@strategosinl.com[/email]your contact/departmental info for LE verification if you want to download
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:09:24 AM EDT
He now carries a small backup light…..What a retard!
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Hey, I'm a retard, too! [%|]
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:37:17 AM EDT
Retards unite! [BD]
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 11:03:48 AM EDT
Retard as well. Had to drop my flashlight once at the end of a foot pursuit when I went hands-on and took the BG to the ground. My light went into some ankle-high landscaping-type vines; I spent 45 minutes with two Sergeants and couple of other guys looking for it, and it wasn't more than 10 feet from where we were standing at the end of the pursuit.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:19:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2002 9:21:03 AM EDT by mo4040]
Gee, I spose I am one o'them retards too... The first time I went to SigArms (if you have the chance, take a course or two there. I highly recommend their training), I was indoctrinated in the importance of having a good light. Since them, my Surefire is always with me along with my CCW weapon. Even if a fully lighted indoor situation, a quality light will emit enough light to turn the tide in your favor. There was one Simunitions drill (designed to illustrate the need to seek cover, if it all possible) where one person was in the open and the opponent was behind cover. I was the guy in the open. Lacking any available cover, I decided to use my 6P to create concealment, by shining the light directly towards my opponent. Although the firefight took place in a fully lighted (flourescent tubes) indoor range, the amount of light emitted and my movement, was sufficient to keep the other guy from hitting me. Believe it or not, I actually "won" the fight by hitting the other guy without being hit myself. I am a firm believer in the judicious use of high-intensity light (where appropriate).
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 6:53:27 PM EDT
Very interesting... you know what, I always knew you could use these lights to steal a moment, but until I hear it explained like that, I never thought to consider the light as a type of concealment (as in cover vs. concealment). Good example, thanks!
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 7:52:23 AM EDT
Here's another thought on the need for high intensity lights. Have you ever been walking around a house and all of a sudden a motion sensor light comes on? Even if you are there for a valid/legal reason, you feel vulnerable. Now most bad guys like the night because it hides them. When they get lit up for any reason they feel vulnerable. They usually either run or give up. I have seen that happen many times. Powerful lights are a phsycological deterent/use of force as well.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 10:48:46 AM EDT
Whoa! I used to spend a little time surfing around to find info on various subjects pertaining to firearms/personal protection/etc. but there is more great info on this site than I can read! Thanks to all who post here and to those that keep this site afloat for a great resource for us newbies.
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