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Posted: 3/12/2006 4:35:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 6:01:59 PM EDT by WMHM4]
It's a pretty well known thing that the TDVBG has some wobble from side to side when installed on a Surefire M73 rail (not all M73's but a large number of them). I beleive that there are also other forends that this happens with but I can not remember which forends they are they are.

What I did was to shave just a little bit off of the sides of the lockig rails on the TDVBG (this step may not be neccisary with all rails) I then used the supplied tie downs that come with the TDVBG and they did seem to help a little. For a while I was content with almost perfect until I realized that I could fix the problem completely. I cut of the TD supplied tie downs and used a thicker verzion of the same item. After installing the new tie downs I have absolutely zero wobble and the TDVG is 100% rock solid on my M73. I know this may not be earth shattering news that nobody has never heard of before but I just wanted to let others who have the same problems I was having and give them a solution if they did not already know about it.

Pics to follow in a few minutes, just waiting for batteries to charge

what the larger tie downs/cable ties do is put pressure on the locking bars in the TDVG and push the bars up into the rail making for an extremly solid grip with zero wobble or movement. Like I stated above the cable ties supplied with the TDVBG are not wide enough to make it completely solid. I don't know the size of the new ties but I measured them at 3mm wide. The grip literally has zero movement now and is they way it should be.



Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:24:15 PM EDT
Good job, nothing worse than a wobbly VG.
I've always been interested in TD VG but I have a SIR I'd be putting it on and I hear I'd have to file down the TD's slot to get it on. It wouldn't work anyway I doubt I have more than one postion on the SIR's rail which I could line with the grip. I could make it tight but why buy something and have to immediately modify it?
Question I always see two inserts, where your zip tie is fashioned, on a TD are those cross locking tabs that just align with the appropriate slot on the rail ? Thanks let me know just outta curiosity ...
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 5:48:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HAMMERDROP:
Good job, nothing worse than a wobbly VG.
I've always been interested in TD VG but I have a SIR I'd be putting it on and I hear I'd have to file down the TD's slot to get it on. It wouldn't work anyway I doubt I have more than one postion on the SIR's rail which I could line with the grip. I could make it tight but why buy something and have to immediately modify it?
Question I always see two inserts, where your zip tie is fashioned, on a TD are those cross locking tabs that just align with the appropriate slot on the rail ? Thanks let me know just outta curiosity ...



those locking tabs do align with their respective rail slot.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:08:01 PM EDT
Hammerdrop,

If your interested in a TD Vert grip for your SIR try to find one of the TD made rails for the SIR. I have a Mod 58 SIR on my RRA middy, and got the TD rail and grip together. Swapped out the bottom rail on the SIR with the new one and slid the grip on. Initially fit was so tight that the grip had to be pounded into position. After mounting and removig a few times, it now fits very solidly with no movement and can be removed by hand.


-Hershey
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:34:30 PM EDT
Very interesting. I'm going to try this with my grip affixed to my FF RAS MRE as it is extremely loose on this rail system.

Thanks for the idea.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:00:12 AM EDT
I recently installed a Tango Down vertical grip on a Surefire M73 rail and I noticed the locking tabs would not go all the way up to the top like it shows in the instructions. I was concerned if it was actually on tight enough. I am going to get some tie wraps and try this out. Thanks for posting this.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:14:57 AM EDT
Tightened up the wobble with my first generation DD rail. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:08:53 PM EDT
You said you shaved just a little bit off of the sides of the locking rails. What did you use to do that. My TD VFG has just a tiny bit of wobble on my Surefire M73 and I'm not sure if it's worth shaving the rails down and possibly jeopardizing the integrity of the rails. I would definitely like to see those locking bars all the way up but...if its not broke don't fix it. Did you take any pics of the shaving process? What tools were used and roughly how much was removed from the rails?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 1:19:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Policetacteam:
You said you shaved just a little bit off of the sides of the locking rails. What did you use to do that. My TD VFG has just a tiny bit of wobble on my Surefire M73 and I'm not sure if it's worth shaving the rails down and possibly jeopardizing the integrity of the rails. I would definitely like to see those locking bars all the way up but...if its not broke don't fix it. Did you take any pics of the shaving process? What tools were used and roughly how much was removed from the rails?



I used a new razor blade and just shaved a little off of all 4 sides. I would try the cable tie thing first without shaving the bars. If the ties don't fix it by itself than try shaving the bars, just do a little at a time until you get it to where it fits.

The biggest thing with the ties is using the right size if the are not wide enough it won't put enough pressure on the bars to lock them in place. I found mine in my garage so I don't know what size they are but when I measured the width they were 3mm
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 1:49:23 PM EDT
You said you removed a little off of all 4 sides. Did you actually remove the bars from the grip and if so how?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 2:06:42 PM EDT
WMHM4,

Alright...I have the grip in hand and I can see that silver metal plate that acts as a spring for the bars. Did you just press the metal piece down and slide the bars out? I was also curious why you shaved a bit off of all 4 sides and not just 3 sides. Sorry brother...I'm not trying to be a pain in the @$$ but a rock solid fit would be sweet!
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 3:18:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 3:19:23 PM EDT by INI]
I didn't shave anything, I just put teh zip tie thru the slots. It was a little crooked, but when it was cinched down, it straightened out and wedged the lock bars up.
I did hit the edges of the ziptie clasp with a small fingernail file to smooth it out in case my hand hits it. It was pretty sharp.

My ziptie was also tactical black.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 3:22:59 PM EDT
INI,
I may try the zip ties first and see how that works. Are you also using a Surefire forearm?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:44:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Policetacteam:
INI,
I may try the zip ties first and see how that works. Are you also using a Surefire forearm?


Mine is a first generation Daniel Defense.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:37:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Policetacteam:
WMHM4,

Alright...I have the grip in hand and I can see that silver metal plate that acts as a spring for the bars. Did you just press the metal piece down and slide the bars out? I was also curious why you shaved a bit off of all 4 sides and not just 3 sides. Sorry brother...I'm not trying to be a pain in the @$$ but a rock solid fit would be sweet!



On mine I didn't remove the bars it was just really easy to get to them. I turned the grip upside down and shave some material off the sides.

I shaved mine a while ago and it did help a little to get the bars up into the rail but it wasn't until the other day that I tried the zip tie. If I were you I wouldn't shave anything until I have tried the zip tie first.

Your not being a pain at all ask all the questions you need. I just wish I could explain the cuts I made a little better to you. I would take it off to look at it but I don't want to ruin the good solid grip I have right now. If you need any help just ask but definetly just try the zip ties first.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:41:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By INI:
I didn't shave anything, I just put teh zip tie thru the slots. It was a little crooked, but when it was cinched down, it straightened out and wedged the lock bars up.
I did hit the edges of the ziptie clasp with a small fingernail file to smooth it out in case my hand hits it. It was pretty sharp.

My ziptie was also tactical black.



I'm glad it worked for you. I was shocked at how great it worked when I did it, I just wish I had thought of it earlier. Before, mine had a good bit of wobble but now it is completely rock solid, is that how yours is also?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:25:51 AM EDT
Rock solid.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:50:41 PM EDT
I've never seen anyone have a TangoDown vertical grip fit properly. It doesn't matter what rail, the TD is either too loose or too tight. People seem to accept you have to sand, hammer, wedge, grease, curse, shave and ziptie to get one to fit. As hardass as folks are on this board why does everyone cut the TD grip so much slack? If any other product was such a pain in the ass and never fit correctly people would flame it and move on.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 7:07:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
I've never seen anyone have a TangoDown vertical grip fit properly. It doesn't matter what rail, the TD is either too loose or too tight. People seem to accept you have to sand, hammer, wedge, grease, curse, shave and ziptie to get one to fit. As hardass as folks are on this board why does everyone cut the TD grip so much slack? If any other product was such a pain in the ass and never fit correctly people would flame it and move on.



you are absolutely correct that if this happened with any other product it would get completely trashed and no one would buy it. The only reason I can think of is because it is such a great grip with a great design.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:14:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 3:34:41 PM EDT by ARMRER]

Please see below posted comment.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:54:06 PM EDT
WMHM4,

I tried the zip ties, it helped but still did not fully engage the bars into the rail. I think shaving a bit off of the bars will be the only thing to get the bars to fully seat into rail. The zip ties did do a good job at making the VFG rock solid with no wobble. I'm sure some of you are probably wondering why not settle for that. Good question. I guess I would feel better knowing that the bars are fully seated into rail. I'll keep at it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 2:52:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 2:56:01 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By ARMRER:
MrMojoRising,

Can you list the rails you've had difficulty installing the TD vertical grip on?




Do a quick search. I'm not saying anything radical here, read any TD post and you'll see. In this thread alone you've got DD, SIR, SF and RAS. TD doesn't fit out of the box on a single one.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:34:00 PM EDT
Policetacteam, Mrmojorising,

The locking bars of your vertical grip will engage the crosscut at different depths, depending on the rail's mfg., and where in the tolerance range the crosscut was made.

Regardless, the bars were designed to engage properly within the entire tolerance spec of MIL-STD 1913.

The instructions were written around the KAC RIS/RAS, and when installed the locking bars are fully seated at the top of their ports. This will differ slightly with other rail mfgs. Any force applied to the grip will only 'wedge' the bars further into the crosscuts.

Also, the locking bars only prevent fore-aft movement. They do not affect side to side movement.
This is controlled by the dovetail cut itself.

Our grip was designed for MIL-STD 1913. No other.
Some commercially-offered rail systems may claim they are MIL-STD 1913, but, upon dimensional inspection are far from it.

Some mfg's have 'edited' their rails to alter the mandatory .367 MIN dovetail and base height. Probably to reduce the overall height /width of their handguard. This invites mounting problems with our product, and creates the 'pounding on' issues, as there is a collision between our grip, and a rail with insufficient accessory clearance.

Some may have slightly undersized dovetail dimensions. This is exaggerated by the leverage factor of a vertical grip. .002 extra clearance at the mounting point may translate to .030 movement at the end of a 4 1/2" grip.

If a rail has the mandatory .835 +0/-.005 dovetail width, and .617 +0/-.010 base width, the grip will not 'wobble', nor require undue force to install. This is MIL-STD 1913 dimensioning.

Let the buyer beware.

Best,

Jeff
TangoDown LLC
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 4:14:36 PM EDT
Mrmojorising,

We current examples of all the rail systems (commercial/ Military) in house.

To say we don't fit SureFire rails is not the truth. There may be a very small amount of movement
on some M73s, depending on the vintage. When you mount the gun, this disappears. Most ARs have more play between the uppers and lower receivers. The staff at SureFire uses a lot of our grips for testing and training, and have had no complaints as to performance.

A.R.M.S. products, specifically the SIR, are well documented as to the 'level' of MIL-STD 1913 compliance.

KAC products, La Rue Tactical, and Troy Industries all comply with the STD.
Some KAC MREs that have been released commercially, we found them undersized. MIL issue RAS/RIS and FF were perfect. There are thousands of our grips in Military service on KAC rails.

Daniel Defense rails we inspected were compliant with the MIL-STD as well.

FN rails (Mk 46, 48) were dead on. SCAR guns also were a perfect fit.

To say we don't 'fit out of the box on a single one' is an exaggeration.

We offer a product that was made SPECIFICALLY for a Government Standard, at their request. We were asked to develop a product that was bullet-proof, yet cost effective. We can add a mechanism that will compensate for all the commercial interpretations of MIL-STD 1913, but be prepared to pay 20-40% more for the product.

Best,

Jeff

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:18:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 5:30:12 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
As hardass as folks are on this board why does everyone cut the TD grip so much slack? If any other product was such a pain in the ass and never fit correctly people would flame it and move on.



I appreciate you posting here in response to my question regarding the TangoDown grip. I think the fact your product continues to sell as well as it does says something. I don't want to give the impression I harbor any ill will toward your product or company. I can tell from your post you take a strong interest in your product and I commend you on that. That being said, and with all due respect, the post you're reading here isn't an isolated incident. I fully understand a single example of poor fit on an isolated model or manufacture of rail proves nothing. However I urge you to perform a search here and look a little deeper at what the end user is reporting on an open forum.


For example:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=269575

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=269838

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=268244

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=263775
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 4:07:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Policetacteam:
WMHM4,

I tried the zip ties, it helped but still did not fully engage the bars into the rail. I think shaving a bit off of the bars will be the only thing to get the bars to fully seat into rail. The zip ties did do a good job at making the VFG rock solid with no wobble. I'm sure some of you are probably wondering why not settle for that. Good question. I guess I would feel better knowing that the bars are fully seated into rail. I'll keep at it.



I know how you feel with trying to get the bars to lock all the way up, I felt the same way when I first put mine on but if the ties worked than I would probably just leave it alone.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:11:42 PM EDT
Mrmojorising,

I appreciate your civilized response. We are passionate about our products and the professionals who use them. I listed all of the major US Government and law enforcement rail systems, and a rating of how they fit by our research. Many of our products are O.E.M. on US Military purchased weapon systems.

Should you have a commercial rail where our grip becomes difficult to install, there is a reason. There may be a major incompatibility, such as no standoff under the dovetail. Or a very slight one, easily overcome by a light bevel on the top inside edges of the dovetail cut for handguard clearance.

That's why we include a genuine copy of the MIL-STD 1913 blueprint with every grip, so the owners of commercial rails can evaluate their systems, and possible issues.

Best regards,

Jeff
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