Thanks.  That is great news about the tritium.  The one criticism I have heard on the TA44 is that with a flashlight the reticle blacks out.  I actually don't mind this at all.  My reason is that I have had red dots wash out with a flashlight unless I turn up the intensity super bright where it is annoying in low light.

I am seriously considering this option for a home defense rifle.  Are all the ones you have in inventory recent production (tritium brightness related question)?

Well, this thread cleared up one thing:

If you don't practice or train, and you are not fit, and you don't shoot well, and you shoot from odd positions and often called upon to defend the home:
Stay away from LPVO and stick with a red dot.

And, go ahead and take that hiperfire trigger out of the joebobs cart, as well. I keed I keed!

Love my Hiperfire EDT3.

LOL!

ETA: I just built a noveske 12.5 Recce and put a Leupold LPVO on it. So far I love it.

My SHTF gun is still a 10.5” with red dot, light, and DBAL.

LPVO have their place, as does red dot. Each does certain things better than the other.

Because the LPVO is faster, especially including potential penalties, through the entire course of fire. 3-gun matches have medium range stages, as I'm sure you know.

Also, sponsorship can come into play too. Top athletes are not always using their most preferred gear, especially on sponsored teams.

I have a question for you real deal operators, 3 gunners, etc.
It’s obvious if your a door kicker that a rds holo system is the lightest with the best peripheral vision.
It’s also obvious that if you have to transition to longer shots that magnification is needed.

Who here has used a Leupold HAMR, Leupold Devo? RDS over scope? I have a buddy that swears the D-EVO is the best thing he’s put on a rifle...but he’s a hog hunter. It’s out for me because I’m left handed and it would be hanging in front of my face

An RDS over a fixed mag scope would seem to make everybody happy (or unhappy). Just curious how it compares.

It depends on what the purpose of the rifle is. If this is an HD gun or an SHTF gun then I’m going red Dot. I am not doing offensive ops or fire and maneuver on the enemy with a squad. I need a rifle to survive close distance Contact.

Also, you say that to transition to “longer” shots that magnification is needed. It depends on what “longer “ is.  Are we taking a few hundred meters? Or are we talking 500 meters? If the latter then what are you doing engaging anybody at those distances alone as neither an LEO or .mil? You should be breaking contact.

I cannot think of a scenario where I would be shooting targets at 50m and then having to immediately transition to 500m targets. I don’t equip my rifle for the one in a million scenario because it’s the most likely scenario that will kill you and that is engagements within 50m where red dot is king.

If you are building this for 3 gun and those wild scenarios then by all means go with an LPVO and a fancy offset RDS that takes another battery and while your at it set up your gear with equipment that is built for speed on the range but would not survive a week in the field, nor retain your mags and equipments in the dark navigating through brush or god knows what.

Well said.

People keep forgetting that there are a HUGE number of us that can’t use red dots.  I can’t zero an Aimpoint T1 within a 4” circle at 50 yards.

With my Razor 1-6x, I can make a 1/2” group.

So, my Razor at 1X is my RDS.  I trust the zero more.

I agree with you,I'm the exact opposite,I can use scopes stationary just fine,but I can't running and gunning. If I have time sitting still to take a long shot I'll use either a d-evo or magnifier with my holographic sight.

I was talking about fun stuff not real fighting. I think HD is kind of a no brainer. I keep a rifle in my truck. I am more likely to run across a can that needs shootin in the woods than Al Quida. Although, some places i go in the woods you may well run across a mobile meth lab.

He’s not wrong. The only optics I’ve seen consistentlenty withstand hard use in combat were Aimpoint T-1’s, Comp M5’s, and T-1’s.

LPVO’s are usually heavy and large. If trends keep moving towards the NX-8 sized optics I’ll probably become more interested. But if a “do everything” rifle an ACOG is very difficult to beat.

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I was the biggest fan of ACOGs that I know of.  I have owned 15 total.  They are cool.  They are durable.

ACOGs are NOT a do everything optic.  They are horrible up close in low light.

That is a serious and terminal flaw for me.  I upgraded to Razor HD 1-6x scopes and am prepared for any situation that could come up - close or far in any light.

The ACOG is just not functional in all situations.  The LPV is.

Very valid reason to go LPVO over rds for close range.

Maybe LPVO then. I already have a rifle with a RDS for HD and SHTF. I recently built a SBR around a Noveske Crusader and put a Leupold LPVO on it. I love it. Will be using it for hunting and some run and guns.

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How do you like those offset XS sights?  I wanted to try them instead of spending another $3-400 on a RDS but I read mostly negative reviews about them being too low?

They work ok for 50 yards and in. Don’t expect precision out of them. It’s like shooting with pistol sights. They are extremely low but usable if you practice with them.

Being low is both good and bad. Good because they are there when you need them and they have a good low profile and don’t snag on everything. Bad because you absolutely have to stay down on the gun when you rotate.

For me they work as intended and that is to quickly get rounds on a 20”-40” target within 50 meters. I can hit 8” plates pretty easy with them at close range. It’s hard to do that with the Leupold being 1.5x. But I really like the Leupold and feel like I got a good deal on it, and the glass is great especially when hunting at dusk and dawn. I can deal with a 1.5x over a true 1x with an LPVO because I am not trying to shoehorn it into the role of an RDS.

I have a VX-R Hog on a 14.5. I like it. The reticle is a bit heavy and the wording is stupid but It's 11 oz., Great illumination, BDC reticle and capped turrets. Perfect for a truck gun. I don't need a true 1x on that either. I have a Vortex Razor HD gen II 1-6 and by the time I get the reticle subtens in focus it's not 1x either.

Thanks for the input

Your videos prove my point!
EVERY single shot you take is from a position of textbook "this is how you hold a gun" stance and you're looking at a non-moving target.
Half of those targets would be missed if they were running/ducking/moving. Also with 3-gun its a course, its set up, you look and see where targets are, then you move to engage those set up targets, thats a lot different then not knowing where things will pop up and what they will do.
I think its funny that 3-gunners think its the same as combat. Not that rabbit blasting is either, but at least they are moving in an erratic way. They stop they run they turn, and usually you're moving also. Plus half the time we're hanging out the side of a dune buggy.
In your videos I can see why an LPV would be necessary and helpful, but for HD I would stick red dot all day. Bad eyes, older, whatever, fine maybe use an LPV if you are shooting past 50 yards. But I dont see most people shooting past 50 yards in America in a defensive situation.

I challenge you to come out to Nevada and do a night of bunny blasting. Shooting quickly from all sorts of weird angles at moving targets.

Honestly, in a nice way, not arguing or being a Ja****s, Next time you plan on going to NV shoot me a PM, we'll gear up and hit the desert for a seriously fun time. You learn pretty quick in the Nevada desert what you need to survive. BCGs break, uppers have weird failures I've never seen anywhere else, the dust does weird things.  Its why so many LE/mil/companies do R&D and training there. Your body and mind do weird things too when you've been up for 18 hours and its 5am and you're dirty and still trying to engage those fast moving jackrabbits. Its hard and fun and its a lot more realistic to any sort of "SHTF" scenario than 3-gun. Imagine in all those videos you posted if your targets were either moving, or about to move and you didn't know when and didnt know where they would go. I have a few friends who compete and do 3-gun stuff, good for them, they are good at it, they use a razor 1-6, but its a different type of shooting, and HD they use a different rifle.

And PS, I like LVPs, Actually Love them, they have their place.

Daniel Horner was with the AMU at that time.  No sponsorships.   At one point or another, he had almost all the good 1-6x scopes on his rifles.  He didnt use a red dot at any 3gun nation matches that I ever saw, even the all bay matches 100 yards or less.

There are maybe 5 people in the whole sport who make a living by shooting.   The spo sponsorship argument is a weak one.

When I shoot at moving targets.... I move my gun.....

I'm sorry I don't have any videos for you of shots from inside a car, or under a car, or thru a Vtac barricade.....  We do all those things but I don't always run my camera.  I'm not going to choose an inferior sighting system based on the low probability extremely contorted shot where the supposed parallax benefits of a RDS are supposed to save my ass.  I've done all the rollover prone, etc stuff with my optics and I don't have any difficulty getting a sight picture in them.

Well until we find some people to volunteer to be shot at or get into simunitions/airsoft, it's the best I've got.

I have never said that, ever.  In fact I have frequently agreed that lighter optics definitely have a role on rifles where weight penalties carry a significant detriment.

Hanging out of a dune buggy shooting at rabbits that move nothing at all like a human isn't anymore relevant than 3 gun shooting.  It sounds like fun thought.

*shrug*  I own both.  I don't find a red dot to have any kind of intrinsic advantage except for lighter weight.

I don't understand why you are so hung up on this rabbit hunting thing.  Or the 'SHTF' thing.  A typical 'major' 3 gun match involves 2 or 3 days of resetting for other shooters, on your feet all day.  Often in the mud.  Sometimes in the rain, or 95 degrees and 100% humidity in Kentucky.... etc...    Nobody who I know or shoot with is making any kind of claims about approximating combat.  It is a shooting sport.  In a shooting sport, guys try to find better ways to hit targets faster.  In the absolute drag race high speed game of 3-gun, the 3 Gun Nation bay series type matches were still dominated by LPVO.  My only claim in this thread is that the advantages of the red dot are being exaggerated, and the weaknesses are being ignored.

I guess I am just trying to relate/answer the question that was asked.

Here is what the OP said:
"I've always been a big believer in red dot for anything in a self defense/HD/zombie gun, and LPVO for anything you would use for 100-400 yards or so. I'm reconsidering that currently. To my, my HD/bug out rifle is the one that I'll grab if the alarm goes off, looters roll in, etc."

For HD/Defense/looters... I would want something as light and maneuverable as possible. Something to defend my home that is most forgiving also. A red dot makes more sense for 99% of people defending their home.
In America it is ridiculous to think that you need to fire a defensive shot at anyone past 20 yards (for most people, yes obviously the few who own ranches MAYBE). So I do not understand the benefit to LPVs for shooting at a human sized target in a defensive situation. You're adding weight, cost, and creating a set up that does require more training. MOST people dont actually shoot much or practice much, even if they think they do, they don't.
LPVs are great for making accurate shots at 200 yards, yes, and they might be good for LEOs in certain areas also. Great for pid for LE/gov/mil yeah for sure. They are definitely a good thing for mil overseas. If I were being deployed to most places in the world I would prob take an LPV also. BUT.....OP didn't ask about any of this. He also didn't ask about 3-gun. He didn't ask about competing.  
So I am not sure why people fill this thread with "good enough for the military" and "3-gun matches are won with this".
I would bet everything I own, that OP will never need to shoot at anyone in a defensive situation past 20 yards. And if he does he might go to prison, or he might get shot for pointing a rifle at people while other people are evacuating (or whatever he thinks might happen). I should start a company on arfcom that sells SHTF insurance, I'd make too much money.  I like to live in reality, and in reality I defend my home with a 300 blk SBR with a red dot. I have LPVs and all sorts of stuff that is fun to play with, but if a person comes to me and says "wow look at this gun room, I can buy one rifle for HD what should I have to protect my family?", I don't point them toward a razor 1-6 (even though right now they are $800 very tempting to buy more). Maybe its different for people growing up in Nevada too because of the open land. your youtube videos are what we did growing up, bored in the desert we'd set up targets randomly in the hills and then run/hike/walk and shoot them. Or we'd set up courses and drive and shoot from the back of a truck. We grew up doing this with either red dots or cheap Nikon 3-9 scopes haha. What you do in those videos is what we grew up doing before we were old enough to go drinking. Nothing else to do.

Anyway, I don't really know why I got sucked into this so badly, so much of its personal anyway. Use whatever you want.

OP here. I am trying to simplify number of things I own, and make sure what I do have is of sufficient quality to accomplish whatever it is that tool needs to accomplish. I didn't mention 3 gun but I was a semi-pro shooter for years. Sponsored by powder companies not optics, but it was a fun time to be drag racing and trying to get good hits quickly. I think competition is often mentioned as a comparison to combat shooting because standing still on a static range can only tell you so much. You can set up a course and compare both hits and time when you only change one variable. yes it's set, yes you know where targets are (at least after the first time) and nobody is shooting back. But when I took a week off work and drove hundreds of miles to shoot a match, not knowing if they would be 1 foot or 400 yard targets I wanted something that fit and worked for either of those options. that's a LPVO. was a 1-4 in my day, then 1-6, and now 1-whatever your budget allows.

I see my HD/bug out rifle now the way I saw my 3 gun rifle. the one thing I grab if shit hits the fan. For me, that's the same rifle for a break in, a coyote in the yard, neighbors having a shoot out and heading towards me, or evacuating due to insert reason here.

I shot more in a few seasons than many outside this forum will shoot in a lifetime. I still shoot 2-3x a month and that's a lot for many. I'm comfortable with my level of training and skills with dots and LPVO, and I know either is better than irons. My situation is currently suburban family man. I want something that's still short and handy in the house, can reach out to as far as I can see (lets say 150 yards at most unless I'm looking down a road) and accurate enough that I can hit whatever it is I need to while not hitting whatever it is I don't want to. If I lived in Nevada or down town Dallas I'm sure my choices would be different and that's OK.

I hope to finish up my SBR with a new stock and can shortly. After that I will take it to the range and see if I am faster with my dot or my 1-4, and then make the decision based on that.

I have a Mk4 on my mini recce too. SPR reticle. If I am bugging out (will probably never happen), I'm taking the mini with the Mk4 and 1.5 - 5x. I think having a magnified optic in a prolonged SHTF situation could potentially offer more capability (hunting, ID, defense). If someone is breaking in my house, the HD uppers have red dots.

Yes this is a good answer.

This does not reflect what your OP said, seems like you've already got stuff figured out.
I would assume at your range at non-moving targets you will be just as fast with an LPVO. Being tired from being up all night and on the move (like many SHTF situations might lead to), I don't know. Holding a rifle with one hand while manipulating car doors, household doors, climbing up/down canyons, etc...leads to much faster fatigue with a heavier rifle (LPV) at least for me it does...Maybe I'm getting old, but after a few hours I'm really wanting to save weight on my rifle. I have found myself replacing SF/AAC/gemtech cans with TREK-T and direct thread Omegas.
I'd be curious to watch a 3-gun match that was 600 targets over the course of 120 miles of hopping in and out of a truck, clearing 3-5 houses/structures, and went from 9pm-5am.

Honestly it sounds like a LPV is the answer for you, but I don't think it is for many people.

Reviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4wutjDKQWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZ3leUm98A

@58 seconds did I hear you say 'I can't see."  

Maybe not the best choice for a video espousing the merits of a red dot at longer ranges....  

...awkward...

Seriously though, imagine if you were shooting stuff that wasn't wildly contrasting. That RDS would go from "meh" to "totally worthless" pretty fast.

I didn't want to be a dick.  I realize that it was his first? only? second? three gun match.  AND I know he is using 'duty' type gear.  I saw a lanyard on his pistol on one video.  And his hits were about what I would expect mine to be like if I was trying to use a red dot at 300-400 yards.  He also had a comment under his video that he was zeroed at 25 yards and didn't have a chance to check zero at longer distances.

But if he was 3rd on that stage out of 25 he had to be shooting with a group of largely novices.  At most of the matches I shoot you will get your clock cleaned if you aren't cleanly shooting a target every second or two and moving on.  And if you move on leaving targets unhit in order to get to your next gun before par time, you aren't finishing in the top half.

I think I have posted this video before, but example of a typical 'cadence' on longer range targets.  And I was far from winning on this stage, mostly because of my pistol shooting.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8m0h7R2jA

Again, not to be critical of 03RN, I don't know that I could do any better with my RDS equipped rifle.  And when I watch videos from myself at my first match, I cringe.  So I would never run down a guy with the balls to show up at a match, about their performance at a match.  Especially their first/second match.

Only problem is that changing tritium isn't as simple as changing a battery, and tritium is continually dying (becoming less-bright, no off switch). Good and bad.

Because you have to at least hit every target to win and cant use different rifles based on the stage. Thus the ability to reach out and touch exceeds that for absolute speed.

Competition and tactical are brothers but not identical twins. However if it was a in the house shooting competition only, do you really think they would use 1-6? Id go eotech all the way and i hate eotech.

Thus the question really hinges on probability of me having to shoot anyone with a rifle past my front lawn. Maybe the RDS guys are wrong and they will get popped from 200 yards probably not but it could happen.

Fair points.

"Moving to C"

I yelled out when I was shifting fire so the spotters could focus on the next target.

I wasn't necessarily looking for praise, I missed a lot. Shooting at unknown distances without my preferred zero wasn't an ideal set up but it was what I had. It was honest.

The guy running the timer was a swat cop who didn't get a single hit with his duty carbine iirc.

Again, if I could do it over again a lpvo with a better zero would have made it easier but watching grandmaster uspsa shooters and SWAT cops missing way more than me with their duty guns and tricked out gamer guns showed RDS can be used effectively.

Checking shadows and shooting past sunset are also prime reasons for a lpvo.

I tried some I got in a trade... Literally couldn't get my face low enough for a sight picture.  The hell with that.

Gotcha.  Sorry I misheard that.

If I have to pick one sight  and only one forever, I'll pick an LPVO. I enjoy shooting red dots more at close range. Also, if I were going to be in a gunfight 50 yards or in, I would pick a red dot. 100 yards is my limit without magnification because my dominant eye is about 20/40. I get both because I can.

This is about where I stand as well. While the red dot is going to give you the edge in a close gun fight, if I had to pick one optic for the rest of my life I might choose the LPVO because they will still have an etched reticle so when the battery dies you can still use the optic.

I read this in about 90% of the reviews which turned me off from getting them

Yes, you have to be extremely low. They would work for pistol distances and that’s about it. If you are wanting a quick offset optic that will get hits close distances then these can work with training if you are wanting a rifle sight then these will not work.

Inside of 7-8 meters I just rotate the rifle 45 degrees, use the muzzle as a shotgun rib and hammer the trigger.  That's more than enough precision for center mass hits with just a little practice.

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TR24G is the only LPVO I'd consider. It's lighter and brighter than all others. I don't want a black reticle in daylight at 1x, but one that glows so brightly it can't be missed. A battery powered LPVO at that brightness would kill the battery within hours. You can use a black etched reticle but it's slower and you can lose it against busy shadow patterns. Yes the tritium dies within 10-20 years and then you pay to get it replaced for the benefit of not having to worry during that time if the electronics or batteries fail -- AND regardless of that, during the day the fiber optic will give you a very visible glowing reticle. In a distant future SHTF situation you can run an LED light or glow stick on the fiber optic to use at night.

That said I still prefer the TA31. Eye box and eye relief are fine in my experience, and the Bindon Aiming Concept + Two Eyes Open shooting works for me so well that it obviates a need for an LPVO.

Red dot is still king from 0 to 50 yards though, 0 to 100 max. Beyond that you'll lose the ability to confidently PID what you're shooting, especially someone poking out behind cover.

Not a good plan for low light situations.  That picture has to be 40 years old.  There are better ways to solve this problem now.

I believe that is a pic of the Poster so I doubt it’s 40 years old.

Especially in the desert, high quality LPVOs make a hell of a lot more sense than RDS.

BCG's break do they?

Something is very odd about all of your post.

I've been shooting AR15s in the Southwest deserts of United States since the 1980s, have a bit of experience with M4s in the Middle East, as well as East Coast, Pacific Northwest, Korea, Panama, Mainland Europe, and Northern Europe.  The Arctic is far more brutal on guns than the desert could ever hope to be, even with riding on vehicles in the open in convoys.

But especially for the Desert, I want an LPVO on my rifle.

If you're shooting movers like jackrabbits at night, I would recommend IR lasers and NVGs.

For HD in a desert environment, chances of you getting outside of the house with a lot of open terrain around you are high, which is were LPVOs shine and make RDS much less useful in comparison, especially when looking at PID, while having better glass than any RDS has or will ever have.

I don't think anybody is saying they are not good for med to long range or even target ID at close range. Red dots are better for close work. If you have an astigmatism or are fine with compromising a little speed at close range for med- long range magnification or target ID then go with an LPVO.

Here is how scopes breakdown for me. (astigmatism not factored in the following)

RED DOT (RD)
HIGH POWERED OPTIC (HPO)

CLOSE RANGE: RD > LPVO > HPO
MID RANGE: LPVO = HPO > RD
LONG RANGE: HPO > LPVO > RD

For a rifle where I am in a defensive scenario, more than likely alone, then I will be using a Red Dot. It offers me the best chance of winning a gunfight at close range. YMMV.

Pick a purpose for the rifle and use the optic that best fits that purpose. No matter what choice you make you have to compromise somewhere.