Ive drawn blood with my rifle. Ended a life.

Thing was, it was a deer, and a LPVO makes the shot just that much more sure.

Most people on forums would be better suited gearing up for "what is" than "what could be".

For guys like John and the OP who are conducting deer harvesting operations and need to PID target for weapons at extended ranges prior to engagement ... LPVOs are a great way to add long range capability at the expense of added weight, cost, durability and battery life.

Fair enough, good points. Cheers.

Ps:
1) I do think there are a lot of guys in the gun community who want to believe they NEED their mk18 clone to survive the night in their apartment
2) I don't understand why people can't just go hunting with a hunting rifle. Why does everyone want their HD rifle to be the same as their deer rifle? They don't find hunting fun unless they are also playing military?
3) I think people overestimate their capabilities. Most people don't actually hike 6 miles and shoot or train as much as they think they do. No ones fault, time flys, but all of a sudden its been a year and that heavy LPVO rifle with heavy sf can doesn't actually get used much. Many posts on this thread compare SOCOM or whatever badass to the average guy. Yes LPVOs are awesome, but for the average guy they dont make him awesome, and if they make you slower then they make you dead/hurt. I know personally it would take me more work/time/effort to maintain the defense skills with an LPVO vs a red dot. And I (and many people) don't often realistically have that time.

Can’t we all just agree that it’s a personal preference thing?

LPVO’s have great advantages in many situations

Red dots in others

LPVO’s tend to be better versed in
-general purpose
-scouting/target identification
-those with poor eyes

Red dots tend to be better at
-lightweight builds
-dedicated home defense/close encounters/CQB if you’re actually in that line of work
-generally slightly faster

As always ymmv

My personal biggest downfall is having to actually manipulate the zoom on the fly. I personally find it faster to run fixed magnification and a reflex on top/45/wherever. I’m sure I could train around it but I guess why fix it if it works for me. Also, a LOT of the “1x” LPVO’s settings messes with my eyes a bit.

***EDIT***

If I was going to give a LPVO a second try, what would you all recommend for one that is the lightest and has the best 1x performance (eye box, eye relief, closest to true 1x) of the options available?

Kahles.

Why?

Once it is zeroed, you put the dot or crosshairs on the target and pull the trigger.

It's not like you are flying a space shuttle.  It's an optic with one more adjustment (magnification) than a red dot.  (Two I suppose, if you count diopter, which you set once and then leave alone.)

If this is too complicated, I can't help you.

I guess the videos of some legitimate BTDT types choosing to use Razors even in shoothouse scenarios hasn't dispelled this 'slower than a red dot' stuff yet?

Same thing for the 3-Gun Nation series.  Bay type matches.  Absolute drag race with everything 100 yards or less.  Guess what everyone used?

Winner pocketed 40 or 50k, don't remember exactly.  Each guy probably has easily 10k wrapped up between their 3 guns.  They can use ANY OPTIC THEY WANT and it is all pure speed drag race type shooting.

Guess what they used?









If a RDS were truly a speed advantage, why weren't they used?  Winners were determined by fractions of a second in many cases.

Having that extra magnification on tap can really help you clear a stage.

We had a bridge which was suspended for one stage in Corpus and as soon as you crawled onto it the bridge was moving back and forth. Targets at 200 and 250.

Only 7 shooters out of 120 cleared that stage IIRC.

Completely unrealistic stage for any real life situation, however it seperated the men from the boys when it came to shooting experience and rifle setup.

Plenty of shooters with magnification failed that stage. They lacked the experience. Maybe 1 RDS shooter cleared that stage. He was a very experienced shooter. The rest of us had variables and enough skill to utilize them in that stage and cleared it.

Fastest shooter overall was rocking a low power variable. We shot from point blank, around corners, into tubes, around slats, from a swinging bridge, from windows while moving... It was awesome. Im glad I brought the variable and left the RDS at home.

Time behind the trigger will be a defining factor in your speed and precision with a rifle and will play a larger role than the sighting system.

Keep the irons as backup if necessary. Modern AC and High Humidity can screw you over with red dots or LPVOs. Im near 90% humidity all summer. I keep my car and house cool and comfy. All my rifles keep irons for backup.

There are a few things most dont consider however:

Many variables have varrying degrees of light bleed. Full reticle illumination typically bleeds some light out the front of the variable. Will this impact your use?

Variables with a center illuminated dot typically don't bleed light and can get red dot bright. Awesome.

Minimalist reticle designs are becoming popular, but are increadibly shitty if the illumination dies. Battery life and the common error of putting it away while On in the safe are big factors here.

Powering on a weapon light with a minimalist reticle at 1x with a dead battery is not optimal. Looking at a dark tree line with a dead optic and a tiny black reticle is not optimal.

A variable should be:

Red dot bright with illumination on.
No light spill from objective.
Have a good contrast with dead illumination in various lighting situations.

So most variables I wont even look at. The razor is great though I feel that the crosshairs should be thicker outside of the BDC. (Owned one) I like thr steiner 4x from what I have seen so far. I like the accupoint with the german #4 but it isnt red dot bright in the house.

So I think variables are the best choice for a broad range of situations, but they have their own set of problems and limitations. Looking at only competition shooters who have time to double check everything vs you at 3 am in your undies grabbing your gun...

Which one will be ON and ready to go "most likely"?

Probably a red dot with 50k hours battery life, a lithium battery, and a rotary switch.

Be a crappy time to learn you left your variable on and the eye box doesnt help you because of the crappy hard to find reticle.

Why does almost every rifle in this video that has an LPVO on it, also have an offset aimpoint on it??

Probably for situations where they are utilizing the magnification and have to instantly transition to a threat that appears at extremely close distance.  If you notice, they aren't using the offset aimpoints at any point shown in the video.  Not that I saw anyway.

There is some good utility to be had from an offset red dot, depending on your criteria.

They tried out the offset red dots.

Tend to break and when you don't get a walk through to plan your shots it is faster to just stick with a single optic.

More current video of the same guys.

LOL when are we all going to learn that our own resident bad asses like Active are the supreme operator here and we are all going to die and he will be the only one still standing in a real world situation!!!!!!!!

We need to start respecting and appreciating his opinion because it is the only valid one here!!!!!!!!

I never said that, I just happen to have lots of free time to shoot shit in the desert. I think its all personal, I just have yet to see any benefit to an LPVO over a red dot for HD. I don't why people think they need to spend more money to add more weight to an HD rifle.
I don't think comparing a pro 3gunner to the average guy in the middle of the night trying to defend his house is accurate. I don't care what you use, its all personal, I have plenty of money so it doesn't matter to me, but I feel bad for the guy who you are trying to convince to spend his hard earned money on an LPVO that he'll end up putting on EE. When I go to work I listen to police/EMS/RNs/PAs all talking about spending their hard earned little paycheck on this stuff and I honestly hope they are making the right decisions and buying stuff they actually need/want. A lot of people can't really afford to buy some of this stuff.

I don't think anyone will die from anything except cheeseburgers and cancer, the real world situation is the diabetic 3gunner trying to eat healthier lol. I'm the first to say there will be no SHTF end of the world. Best thing you can do these days is be rich and educated (more important than being good at 3gun ).

Interesting. I am def getting more sold on an LPVO, but not for a HD rifle.

Offset red dots can come in handy for some awkward shooting positions. Also, if you're a guy who feels that he absolutely 100% needs a backup sight on his rifle, an offset red dot is faster to use than offset irons. However, see the video below; most of them ditched the offset red dots anyway.

IMO, if you have one rifle that is 100% dedicated to using inside of your house and will absolutely never be used to shoot at a person past 50-75 yards, then a red dot is a better option because of the reduced weight and increased battery life over an LPVO. In that case, you're most likely better off buying an aimpoint and saving your money. However, my experiences with red dots and LPVOs echo those of many others in this thread; as soon as I'm shooting past 50 yards, magnification is a very nice thing to have, especially if there's a possibility of needing to shoot at a person who may or may not be holding a gun (i.e. LEO PID applications) or who's shooting from behind cover (i.e. anyone with a brain in a gunfight). A good daylight-bright LPVO with a good 1x setting and a good reticle will be as good as a red dot up close but gives you the ability to PID or to engage smaller targets (e.g. exposed limbs). Yes, it comes with a weight tradeoff, which is why I said what I said above about red dots being nice if you're 100% positive that you'll only be using your rifle out to 50 yards or so. However, if you're considering adding a magnifier to your red dot setup, the weight difference closes a bit, and even though the micro RDS+magnifier combo will still be a few ounces lighter than an LPVO with mount, the difference in eyebox and FOV between even a good magnifier like a G33 and a good LPVO is like night and day, and having all of the weight even balanced over the center of the receiver feels better and is less awkward to handle than a red dot and a magnifier flipped off to the right side. I'll probably never totally get rid of red dots, but because I realistically might need the PID capability past 50 yards that I mentioned above and after playing around with both for a while and trying them while moving around, shooting from cover, force-on-force training, etc., I think that an LPVO fits most of my needs better than just a red dot or a red dot+magnifier combo.

There is an advantage of an LPVO over a RDS even for HD.

ASTIGMATISM

Many people have astigmatism to the degree that it is tough to get a good zero with an Aimpoint at 50 yards.  That is my case.  I have tried a T1.  I see a comet / slash instead of a dot.  So, I have a tough time getting a good zero on my rifle.  With my Vortex Razor HD 1-6x, my zero is perfect.  The Vortex gives me red dot like performance at 1X that I trust.

Plus, unless you have a crystal ball and know the future, you never really can know where the bad guy will be.  I can think of plenty of situations where I might have to shoot 50 yards or more.  I don't trust my zero at that range with a RDS.  I also want the best zero I can get even for HD.  I might need to make a head shot or shoot at a small target.

Interesting thread. I read about 1/3 of the posts and all the OPs posts. I can see that there are so many opinions based on experiences and the OP appears to have plenty of experience to draw on as well.

The HD/SHTF/bug out is a compromise rifle to be sure. When compromising everything doesn't get done well. But everything gets done. Select the features that are most important out of myriad of things available in a rifle or pistol build. Hit the most important ones and compromise on the rest. A compromise rifle is like buying a boat. A ski boat might not make a good fishing boat. A small john boat might be good for ducks in a small pond but might not be that good for geese in the bay. A canoe might be good for duck hunting in the marsh but not that great crossing a big lake in inclement weather. A compromise rifle is all of that.

My compromise on the HD weapon is a red dot with a multiplier. Others might poo poo such a choice. That is OK with me. I wouldn't feel any necessity or need to defend it to anyone. I am 63 years old with bad eyes and glasses. In a SHTF/zombie apocalypse/HD situation I am at least as worried about where my glasses are than if I have a scope or a red dot on the rifle.

Good for you

You also keep saying "it's everyone's personal preference" but every time someone post an opposite of what you want them to have you create a babbling narcissistic wall of text scolding them as to why you are right and they are wrong.

ETA: I will agree that a RDS is probably just fine for just HD.

You are so full of shit.

It’s all about speed and performance.  Until it suddenly becomes about economics.

Razor is about $150 more than an aimpoint T2.

Not sure why I’m even bothering to argue with some guy who shoots rabbits.  People who do this shit for a living have chosen the Razor.

Rabbits make for challenging practice, much more so than shooting stationary steel or paper. It's basically a football sized target running at about 30 mph that pops up at different distances. Shooting something that small at 2-300 yards makes man sized hits at 600 easy. I killed a coyote at 600 yds using my .303 Enfield and irons. Why? Because of my excellent vision,which is also a curse. I can't use a scope fast like my UH-1. I bought a Razor and tried to force my eyes to like it but it gave me eye strain and a headache. Instead of people complaining about "this is mo bettah" and "muh lpvo",how about everyone realize that all of our eyes are different? Pat McNamara uses a T-2 with an Aimpoint magnifier(3x I believe). I believe Travis Haley also uses a T-2 as well. Kyle Lamb uses an LCO. All three are Tier 1 guys.

HAHAHAHAHA says the guy who shoots stationary paper at basically known ranges.
Yeah, i bet you're super badass. Try hitting a running target at night at unknown distance, over and over again.

Second, not sure why you keep comparing tier 1 dudes in aggressive forward assault type roles, to civilians defending their home. LPVO makes sense for dudes in combat who have to reach out, they don't make sense for HD. You've spoken to all these badass dudes and they all choose an LPVO for home defense? That's what hey buy when the come home? They wear Salomon boots too, maybe I should wear those when I play tennis.
Doesn't matter how in shape you are or stay, weight is weight.

T2 with Larue mount is $750
Razor with good mount is well over $1,100.
MRO under $400
PRO under $400

High speed, low weight, easier on the body, low cost......whatever you want to argue right now.
Not sure why I'm arguing with a guy with 10,000 posts who prob lives in some city and only shoots at a range with his coffee.

Active, a red dot does not work for everyone.  Some people have astigmatism and see a line / comet instead of a dot.  A LPVO is better in that case.

I hunt jackrabbits with my ARs too.  I typically walk 4-5 miles in the desert hill country and shoot 10-20 a trip when the numbers are good.  I use my Razor 1-6X and ACOG TA110.  It is good practice hitting a moving target or a stationary rabbit at 100+ yards taking a knee.

Red dots are great.  Not everyone can use them.  I can't even get a good zero on my sons T1 at 50 yards.  There is no one size fits all solution.  Use what you have and train like crazy with it.

I don't have any problem carrying either rifle hiking for hours in the Mojave desert.  But, I am not the typical fat American.  Most of the people I see at the range have not done a situp in 20 years. They all look like they are in their 3rd Trimester of pregnancy.

I could care less what an optic costs.  I just want the best solution.

Another vote for the Kahles.

Superb clarity and FOV. Almost 1/3 lighter than the Razor (which I also have).

Open Division.

You run an offset optic for shooting around offside barricades and rapid transition from contact distance to 75-100 yards.

If you’re only running one, it should be a LPVO.

Both sides of this fence have good arguments. I canned my LPVO and am RDS only for day guns and NODS/ Thermal for night. If I’m adding one pound+ to my gun, I’m getting superpowers for it

Cmon out.

https://youtu.be/wP8m0h7R2jA



https://youtu.be/xhSbdtlAMZU

Could you share some info on:
- When & where the next major earthquake will happen?
- When & where the next major volcanic eruption will be?
- When & where the next large object from space will smash into this planet?
- When & where the next damaging cyber attack on critical infrastructure will be?

Oh... and what the next winning lottery ticket numbers will be?  Since you think you can tell the future.

I’m currently ANVIS + PAQ4C for night, with a TNVC Torch MKII.  Thermal scope is the next iteration for me night setup.

Rabbits.  Tier Alpha.

If you expect me to believe that you shoot running rabbits at “2-300 yards”. The only thing you have succeeded in convincing me is that you don’t own a range finder.

Congrats.  You failed to set the diopter properly.

Done it multiple times with witnesses and a rangefinder. Sometimes so small the front iron post covers them up. Been shooting them for over twenty years.

Pretty easy to set it. Did it both ways,clarity and item size. Both ways hurt.

I also have verified 100+yd first round hits with my Glock 17.

You should put these incredible skills on display in the sport that rewards speed and accuracy with cash and prizes.

I'd like to see a video of a 250y rabbit shot on the run.  I don't believe it

I want to. We have USPSA where I live. Unfortunately I'm on call 24/7 for work and have 5 kids. My shooting time is limited. My buddy and I also want to try 3gun.

Guess I'll get a GoPro then. Cellphone cameras suck while shooting. It's not just me either,friends and relatives routinely do this with AK's and irons. 250 yds isn't that far away.

LPVOs are so slow.  (Unless of course a shooter has time and money to put them to use.)

[youtube]3DGGu5YeO9M?t=41[/youtube]

Rifle at start is a stage gun.  At 41 seconds I retrieve my rifle, equipped with a Bushnell 1-6.5 SFP.

And before all you "I'm faster with my red dot" guys respond- I was 11th on this stage, and 9 of the guys that beat me are 4th degree black belt door kickers, of which at least 1/2 of them I know for fact were also using LPVOs.  (likely all of them, but I cannot verify)

Fatal funnel be damned.

We get it guys.  [Insert your name here] is so much more badass than [insert other guys name here] because you use a [insert your optic choice here]

Negative.

Aptitude and developed capability is the most important aspect.   A skilled shooter who puts in the work will beat an unskilled shooter who doesn't, almost without regard to equipment.

Assertions are being made (by some) that are not supported by the available data.

Or maybe some of us have both, use both, and are tired of the mantra that using a LPVO automatically makes you slower than using a red dot.

Very true words spoken.  I think more people need to hear that truth.  We can't purchase our way into excellence.  If we all spent as much time criticizing our skills and physical condition instead of equipment, we would be better off.

That being said...

Mike - I like your ACSS TA44.  How is it for guys with astigmatism?  Does it work well in low light without a flashlight (is the tritium bright enough)?  Last question, have you heard any news about Trijicon releasing an LED version?

It's a well written article, and I agree with most of it.    I simply don't agree with this portion:

To me, it is one of those things that has been repeated so often that it is accepted as fact, when we see the optics choices by the best of the best clearly disputes that assertion.

I don't agree that it is a situation where you can practice your way into being just as fast, but a relative novice will be faster with a red dot.  There is nothing complicated about shooting fast with a LPVO.  Put the dot, or the crosshairs, on the target and break the shot.  I don't even find the illumination of a LPVO to be particularly important to speed, so long as the reticle is well designed.

I would acquiesce with regards to weight.  If you can't physically manipulate a rifle with a heavier optic on top, a red dot may indeed be faster.  But that is because of simple weight, not because of optical quality.  The eye box on the good LPVOs at 1x is enormous.

I would acquiesce with regards to weight. If you can't physically manipulate a rifle with a heavier optic on top, a red dot may indeed be faster. But that is because of simple weight, not because of optical quality. The eye box on the good LPVOs at 1x is enormous.

I think this is a true statement.  My Razor has a huge eyebox. My spit times are even with a red dot.  The stadia lines on the scope draw my eye to the center fast.  No stadia lines on a T1.

As Mike stated, there is a lot that goes into "fast shooting".  It is more than just what optic you are running.

Shooting technique
Mental technique
Load selection
Rifle weight
Compensator or brake
Physical fitness

I'll add eyesight to this list as well.