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Posted: 9/28/2018 5:59:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, that is the exact opposite of my experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm a fan of lpvos but I was shooting yesterday and it started to get dark, target was in the shade, black painted steel and I only had sunglasses for shooting glasses. Couldn't see the target at all at 350 yds at 8x. Switched to my sbr with an aimpoint on it and could see the target but had to move down to 300yds to make reliable hits. |
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Posted: 9/28/2018 6:02:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That sounds backwards. I wonder what scope it was? @SurtrsFire on 8x i couldnt find the steel target at all. brought it down to 4x and found it but not good enough to make hits. |
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Posted: 9/28/2018 6:30:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nightforce atacr 1-8. on 8x i couldnt find the steel target at all. brought it down to 4x and found it but not good enough to make hits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That sounds backwards. I wonder what scope it was? @SurtrsFire on 8x i couldnt find the steel target at all. brought it down to 4x and found it but not good enough to make hits. I've ran the ATACR 4-16 and 1-8 quite a bit and they really do suffer in marginal light at max mag due to the too small objective. I see NF is finally upping the F1 4-16 to a 56mm. 'Bout damn time. |
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Posted: 9/28/2018 10:00:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think that is the setup he would have chosen to defend his home? Sorry, but the type of combat he was in is not the type of situation that will unfold here in the US. This dude was using his rifle differently than the OP asking about looters, defense, and disasters. YES an LPVO has great capabilities for military applications in big open war torn countries where you're moving from open land into villages, and you are allowed to walk around pointing rifles at whoever, but at home even in SHTF situations, red dots rule. You should be confident defending yourself with a red dot out to 100 yards or more. Hunting is different, and the animal deserves a good shot with a good bullet, but thats why we have hunting rifles designed for hunting. Too many people like to hunt with their AR because its the only time they get to play army. I saw this in the midwest a lot haha. How many police departments have LPVOs on their patrol rifles? SWAT rifles? VERY FEW. They use red dots for good reason. Unless you are going to be in some sort of open land on your own war torn adventure, red dots are better for the majority of defensive situations. I think these threads deteriorate because people have fantasies in their head about what they are going to use their rifle for. I think the other problem is people don't actually go survive on their own. Go backpacking for 3 nights and see how it goes. Believe me, a majority of these 3gun and gun class guys would all die out in the open land of starvation/dehydration/stupidity. You learn a lot backpacking and traveling. You also learn that o your list of stuff really needed to survive a gun is pretty far down that list. I'd rather stuff my pack with more gatorade powder packets than a bigger optic on my SBR. Over the years backpacking I've also greatly decreased the amount of ammo I carry too. I remember being about 9 hours into backcountry one time and I was pumping water from a stream and this fit military type guy with his wife came up and asked if he could borrow my water pump because they forgot to bring one. He had a HUGE pack of probably a ton of stuff he didn't need, and they didn't have a way to drink clean water without hiking back about 9 hours to a lodge haha. wow! Rifles are so personal, so Im not saying you should take a red dot over a LPVO, I too have thought about switching to the NF NX8 from aimpoint on my "going out in the desert" gun, but I don't know, I still think binoculars are better and red dot for defense. It's better to be fast and light, and I can lob rounds out to a few hundred yards with a red dot. I would think long and hard about what you're actually preparing for. Also I would define what you're actually using this rifle for and what situations you honestly think you will be in?? I also would think about what you're carrying, how you're carrying it, where you are going, and who will be around watching you do this? I think living down by the border I could see a LPVO being useful. If I did a lot hiking around the border area in the middle of nowhere id take a 12.5" 556 with TREK-T and LPVO. No, scratch that... what the hell are you rambling about???? |
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Posted: 9/28/2018 10:29:14 PM EDT
[#5]
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I remember when I started shooting 3-Gun and they made me throw away my water filter before my first match.... No, scratch that... what the hell are you rambling about???? 
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Posted: 9/28/2018 10:54:23 PM EDT
[#6]
To be fair, I guess I see where some of these guys are coming from.
In the rare instance that I might use an AR for HD. It will probably be a heroin junkie in my house at 15 feet. But I like to shoot. A bunch. And it gets boring shooting IPSC targets at 15 feet. So I like to stretch out and work on hittilng targets out to 500+. I have both types of optics and I find LPVO to be eminently more suitable for most situations. No real downside in a house and huge upside for tough, long or small target shots.  Generation 3 Gun 2018 Stage 3 Beware, gun games inside. this shit will get you killed in the streets, or at the water pump, or something |
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Posted: 9/29/2018 5:44:38 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair, I guess I see where some of these guys are coming from. In the rare instance that I might use an AR for HD. It will probably be a heroin junkie in my house at 15 feet. But I like to shoot. A bunch. And it gets boring shooting IPSC targets at 15 feet. So I like to stretch out and work on hittilng targets out to 500+. I have both types of optics and I find LPVO to be eminently more suitable for most situations. No real downside in a house and huge upside for tough, long or small target shots.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8m0h7R2jA
Beware, gun games inside. this shit will get you killed in the streets, or at the water pump, or something When I first began training with Kyle Lamb and co, I remember tearing the shit out of the turf support-side low kneeling (brokeback prone) around a barricade, using a Comp M4S. Target was at about 40m, and I KEPT dumping rounds into the ground. People yelled and I stopped after round 3 or 4. I then deliberately. Methodically. Carefully. Placed the dot COM on the 2/3 IPSC and AGAIN dumped 2 rounds into the ground 10' from me. There was no hill. There was no wrinkle in the terrain. My muzzle was aimed at the damn deck. What I must have seen was some internal reflection that replicated the RDS dot or some odd interaction with my shooting glasses (Rudy Project Laser Racing Red Photochromic). Nothing else makes sense. But ya know what? That grotesque misalignment has never happened again, and never would have happened in the first place, had I been more experienced using my tools. Learn your tools. Nothing is novice-proof. Gear won't make up for skill, either, except in exceedingly rare cases (hard to hit an apple at 600 yards iron sights against a non-contrasting background, etc.) |
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Posted: 10/6/2018 11:48:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I've always been a big believer in red dot for anything in a self defense/HD/zombie gun, and LPVO for anything you would use for 100-400 yards or so. I'm reconsidering that currently. To my, my HD/bug out rifle is the one that I'll grab if the alarm goes off, looters roll in, etc. But this weekend I had my fold up 300BO SBR with Primary Arms micro dot in a bag for a weekend trip to a lake cabin. There was a deer about 110 yards out, and with the dot there was no way for me to determine if I was holding over vitals or a shoulder, let alone the neck shot everyone claims to make on this site. Since the doe was not a threat I was just looking, but made me really consider switching over to a variable. I'm thinking I would like to be able to see someone's hands or distinguish what they are holding. It also seems like I would have a better chance at IDing a target if needed. anyone else come to the same conclusion? Coming up with a pros/cons list the major cons I see are weight, and price. Am I missing anything? I already own a Trijicon tr24, but would have to pull it off my 3 gun rifle, thus admitting to myself I don't really compete anymore  |
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Posted: 10/9/2018 11:40:43 PM EDT
[#9]
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Yeah, but fortunately they don't have that 'can't see shit in a common array of lighting conditions' that red dots have. Inside a house, yes, red dots have a weight advantage and LPVO have no real advantage. Step outside and things change, even in some circumstances within 100 yards in my experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Like I said earlier, for SHTF scenarios I want every advantage I can get at CQB ranges. So I will stay away from optics that require me to be in the eyebox in order for it to work properly. YMMV.  Inside a house, yes, red dots have a weight advantage and LPVO have no real advantage. Step outside and things change, even in some circumstances within 100 yards in my experience. 
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Posted: 10/9/2018 11:41:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking into the sun, target in the shade. Sun directly behind shooter, target in the shade. All of the above and then more scenarios if the target is small and partially obscured by vegetation or other whatever junk gets in way. I don't disagree that in many circumstances at short range, that the red dot has no disadvantage, and has a weight advantage. In my personal use I have never experienced a problem with exit pupil or eye relief with a high quality LPVO. Just my .02. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: When do you encounter lighting conditions that fuck an Aimpoint but not a scope? I've ran both a LOT and haven't noticed an LPV being more useable in sorry lighting. I've actually gone back to a QD mount under the Aimpoint and fixed irons because condensation is my #1 killer here in muggy coastal South Texas. Sun directly behind shooter, target in the shade. All of the above and then more scenarios if the target is small and partially obscured by vegetation or other whatever junk gets in way. I don't disagree that in many circumstances at short range, that the red dot has no disadvantage, and has a weight advantage. In my personal use I have never experienced a problem with exit pupil or eye relief with a high quality LPVO. Just my .02. |
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Posted: 10/9/2018 11:45:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nightforce atacr 1-8. on 8x i couldnt find the steel target at all. brought it down to 4x and found it but not good enough to make hits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That sounds backwards. I wonder what scope it was? @SurtrsFire on 8x i couldnt find the steel target at all. brought it down to 4x and found it but not good enough to make hits. |
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Posted: 10/9/2018 11:47:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair, I guess I see where some of these guys are coming from. In the rare instance that I might use an AR for HD. It will probably be a heroin junkie in my house at 15 feet. But I like to shoot. A bunch. And it gets boring shooting IPSC targets at 15 feet. So I like to stretch out and work on hittilng targets out to 500+. I have both types of optics and I find LPVO to be eminently more suitable for most situations. No real downside in a house and huge upside for tough, long or small target shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8m0h7R2jA
Beware, gun games inside. this shit will get you killed in the streets, or at the water pump, or something |
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Posted: 10/10/2018 8:51:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For hitting. 20 x 40” target inside 100 yards nothing compares to a red dot. |
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Posted: 10/10/2018 8:53:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I challenge you to go through a live fire shoot house, or similar, with an LPVO compared to a true red dot. |
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Posted: 10/10/2018 9:19:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Prismatic scopes will be behind red dots in low light shooting conditions, every time. |
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Posted: 10/10/2018 11:02:32 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If all I did was 25 yards or less, sure. I still find the only drawback of a LPVO in extreme short range to be weight. But I dont wear gas masks, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I challenge you to go through a live fire shoot house, or similar, with an LPVO compared to a true red dot. ** On a known target array, I could smoke 'em just as fast or even faster up close with the LPV, but add in using a light to ID whether a target is a shoot or no-shoot and running an Aimpoint takes a big lead over an LPV. *For me. |
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Posted: 10/11/2018 10:03:27 PM EDT
[#17]
I would agree with that on the NF. I have the 1-4 and it is one of my favorite scopes and I have a Kahles 1-6. The reticle is so darn fast and bold to me. I know most people claim it sucks but I bet they never actually owned one and ran it alot. I still love mine!
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Posted: 10/12/2018 3:54:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Prismatic scopes will be behind red dots in low light shooting conditions, every time. Much better glass and light transmission with no tint on a good Prismatic. Its the reason I went with one and ditched dot. |
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Posted: 10/12/2018 3:57:39 PM EDT
[#19]
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For hitting. 20 x 40” target inside 100 yards nothing compares to a red dot. Lmao. |
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Posted: 10/12/2018 4:20:54 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 10/12/2018 4:42:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Prismatic scopes will be behind red dots in low light shooting conditions, every time. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 1:30:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, the no sight/optic bit at <25 was probably too extreme, but I constantly LOL at people that complain about 1x at CQB ranges. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lol |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 7:10:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If all I did was 25 yards or less, sure. I still find the only drawback of a LPVO in extreme short range to be weight. But I dont wear gas masks, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I challenge you to go through a live fire shoot house, or similar, with an LPVO compared to a true red dot. - weight / size - cost - durability - battery life - eye box if you want to argue durability yes you can get increased durability LPVOs (not aimpoint levels mind you) but the cost and weight penalties are even bigger. A mounted Razor is over 32 oz where as an aimpoint T1/2 is like 6 oz. Razor costs over double and doesn't even register in battery life department vs. an aimpoint. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 9:41:41 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drawbacks compared to RDS: - weight / size - cost - durability - battery life - eye box if you want to argue durability yes you can get increased durability LPVOs (not aimpoint levels mind you) but the cost and weight penalties are even bigger. A mounted Razor is over 32 oz where as an aimpoint T1/2 is like 6 oz. Razor costs over double and doesn't even register in battery life department vs. an aimpoint. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 7:24:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Leupold VX6, Kahles K16i has been pictured on guns used overseas. Still have the cost factor but you cant win everything. Not to mention the 3 gun guys who are playing for fun on budgets get by just fine with low grade LPVs like Strike Eagles- hell I remember reading about a merc in Syria using a strike eagle on his rifle. And seeing as how the other guys get to call out the LPV crowd for not needing to shoot distance, I can say as civilians why do we need a deployed to Afghanistan level durability anyways? IMO we can get duty grade level reliability from mid range LPVs like the Steiner P4Xi or Viper PST gen II. |
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Posted: 10/24/2018 1:38:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember when I started shooting 3-Gun and they made me throw away my water filter before my first match.... No, scratch that... what the hell are you rambling about???? There is no debate. ZERO no 1-6 lpvo competes with a red dot for close range. That’s exactly what will be needed for HD and 99% shtf. Guys are in dreamland if they think otherwise. Good luck explaining that multi hundred yard shot to the jury when ROL comes back. *I have an lpvo, red dot, red dot & magnifier. Red dot(with ACSS reticle) & 6x magnifier is best short-medium range optic period. |
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Posted: 10/24/2018 2:44:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think he was LOL at you thinking you live in some sort of dangerous world where you need an LPVO. I always get a kick out of the people on here who think they live in a Call of duty game...
Yup, that's what I posted. |
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Posted: 10/24/2018 2:45:19 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you mean? He made perfect sense. Most guys live in Rambo la la land. There is no debate. ZERO no 1-6 lpvo competes with a red dot for close range. That’s exactly what will be needed for HD and 99% shtf. Guys are in dreamland if they think otherwise. Good luck explaining that multi hundred yard shot to the jury when ROL comes back. *I have an lpvo, red dot, red dot & magnifier. Red dot(with ACSS reticle) & 6x magnifier is best short-medium range optic period. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 5:20:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man you got to shit up both threads don’t you. I have seen too many broke ass aimpoints M2s and M4s to trust my life. And check it out if the bad guy isn’t a white piece of steel that stands still at a known range good luck IDing it or even seeing it. Yes in the house a red dot will rule but once you step out side it’s a whole other world but you’d have to leave your moms basement to figure that out. Don’t get too much Cheeto dust on your holosun bro Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: What do you mean? He made perfect sense. Most guys live in Rambo la la land. There is no debate. ZERO no 1-6 lpvo competes with a red dot for close range. That’s exactly what will be needed for HD and 99% shtf. Guys are in dreamland if they think otherwise. Good luck explaining that multi hundred yard shot to the jury when ROL comes back. *I have an lpvo, red dot, red dot & magnifier. Red dot(with ACSS reticle) & 6x magnifier is best short-medium range optic period. Come back down to reality, go have a chipotle and realize you're more likely to die of cancer. America isn't that dangerous and isn't going to be. Only on arfcom do people go from defending their apartment to engaging dozens of bad guys at 300 yards LOL. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:43:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drawbacks compared to RDS: - weight / size - cost - durability - battery life - eye box Go be poor somewhere else. CAG is using Razors down range. Dont need a battery with a great reticle and I store spares in my stock anyway. Razor eye box is on par with an aimpoint. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:43:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Remember when looters were going around after Katrina and causing ruckus. Situations such as Katrina are the closest we may ever get to SHTF and in that situation I think I'd rather be carrying my rifle around with a light weight RDS. Even if you were defending your home and saw a bunch of guys 200 yards away in a boat carrying guns, you dont know if they're good guys protecting themselves and out helping, or bad guys looking for trouble. It is highly unlikely I would be taking any shots at 50+ yards in a SHTF situation.
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:47:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Some will argue that all self defense scenarios are covered by red dots and you would never need to shoot over 100 yards.
I won't dispute that the vast majority of civilian legitimate use of force scenarios are at short range. I also dont dispute that the vast majority of shooters cant hit a 10 inch plate at 400 if their life depends on it. Some also spend an inordinate amount of time taking photos of themselves laying on their back, dumping rounds thru their 6920 at a full size IPSC 10 yards away, an incredibly low probability shot. So if we need to train for that shot. Perhaps we should train for the 300 yard headshot as well. Shots fired... 
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:53:20 PM EDT
[#33]
I shoot a bunch of targets at very close range.
I have both red dots and LPVO. I am not humping my rifles through the mountains. I would take the extra advantages of the LPVO every time for a general purpose rifle. With a white light, indoors, I prefer the bold black reticle of a LPVO vs a red dot that may wash out if the intensity isn't right and I light up a target at 20 feet with a super bright surefire. |
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Posted: 10/25/2018 6:55:04 PM EDT
[#34]
With what I just said. I'm currently debating between an MRO, T2, or Steiner PX4i for my only Rifle. Of course I'd have all 3 if funds were unlimited. Reason for the Variable is because I like to look through higher mag scopes from time to time for fun; can't really do that with the RDS. Decisions decisions.
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Posted: 10/25/2018 8:49:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Where do ya live, in an apartment, condo or townhouse in a densely populated city, or do you have a home sitting on a two acres in a semi rural area? Maybe somewhere between, but the point is, everyone's situation is different, and the argument here regarding which is better, or which you're more likely to win the day with is pointless without knowing everyone's circumstances.
Get both, train with both, as both have distinct advantages. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 5:47:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you mean? He made perfect sense. Most guys live in Rambo la la land. There is no debate. ZERO no 1-6 lpvo competes with a red dot for close range. That’s exactly what will be needed for HD and 99% shtf. . Set up personal rifle for only HD and SHTF. ?????????? Profit. |
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Posted: 10/26/2018 5:49:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Red dot(with ACSS reticle) & 6x magnifier is best short-medium range optic period. 
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Posted: 10/27/2018 1:15:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Really enjoying the thread guys. Even with the occasional pot-shot or name calling, its great to see all the information in one place. I've found myself in a similar predicament lately, but I can't stop buying new guns long enough to invest in a nice LPVO. As it is, I've enjoyed using my PA Raptor, and can dream of one day owning a Razor/Vudu/Accupoint.
One thing that did surprise me was not seeing a single mention of the Elcan after 6 pages. Granted it, it wasn't in the thread title, but neither were ACOGs or 6x magnifiers, which were mentioned several times. Have they just fallen out of favor? |
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Posted: 10/27/2018 10:29:55 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really enjoying the thread guys. Even with the occasional pot-shot or name calling, its great to see all the information in one place. I've found myself in a similar predicament lately, but I can't stop buying new guns long enough to invest in a nice LPVO. As it is, I've enjoyed using my PA Raptor, and can dream of one day owning a Razor/Vudu/Accupoint. One thing that did surprise me was not seeing a single mention of the Elcan after 6 pages. Granted it, it wasn't in the thread title, but neither were ACOGs or 6x magnifiers, which were mentioned several times. Have they just fallen out of favor? I personally would take the new Razor over an Elcan every day. Lots of guys are getting the razor for $999 vs the Elcan for over $1,800, which makes the Razor a good deal. I just wish they made the Razor lighter and smaller. The NF NX8 is over an inch shorter and a few oz lighter. |
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:04:08 PM EDT
[#40]
LOL this thread.
The Varsity Team has no problems with the SFP LPVO indoors.  American Gunfighter Episode 7 - Why We Train |
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Posted: 11/2/2018 10:04:01 PM EDT
[#41]
I think some people who like to argue that LPVOs are slower than red dots up close have also never tried them with 1.93” mounts or with risers like John Ellison has in that video. It’s amazing how quickly the dot comes into your field of view when it’s slightly higher up. Also, are those Larue offset mounts they have for the micros? I’ve read that some mounts don’t clear the turrets on the razor, so that’s why I ask.
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Posted: 11/2/2018 10:24:17 PM EDT
[#42]
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LOL this thread. The Varsity Team has no problems with the SFP LPVO indoors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMktulB9MEI have been assured by many in this thread that no serious person would use a LPVO. 
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Posted: 11/3/2018 9:51:40 AM EDT
[#43]
https://youtu.be/3yReIGUV9UE
Another good one by bravo company. Amazing all the guys are running razors on a city clearing mission. Very cool to see what a team that works together can do so smoothly. When I was on our swat team we didn't get enough practice to work so fluidly. |
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Posted: 11/3/2018 10:31:43 AM EDT
[#44]
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https://youtu.be/3yReIGUV9UE Another good one by bravo company. Amazing all the guys are running razors on a city clearing mission. Very cool to see what a team that works together can do so smoothly. When I was on our swat team we didn't get enough practice to work so fluidly. |
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Posted: 11/3/2018 11:48:44 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL this thread. The Varsity Team has no problems with the SFP LPVO indoors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMktulB9ME |
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Posted: 11/3/2018 9:20:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL this thread. The Varsity Team has no problems with the SFP LPVO indoors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMktulB9MEIn the end this argument doesn't even really matter because the likelihood of someone on here using their rifle for defense is almost zero. |
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Posted: 11/3/2018 10:11:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think this is actually the problem....people on here sit in their apartment and think they are on the varsity team every night. I have no doubt some people are badass with an LPVO, I also have no doubt that I wont be needing to leave a building and make 300 yard shots under fire, making the weight/size of an LPVO dumb to put on a HD rifle. Guys in that video are also using Eotech. In the end this argument doesn't even really matter because the likelihood of someone on here using their rifle for defense is almost zero. Second, I don't believe you live in Nevada. I live out West and I know Nevada, outside of a building or range, you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. And 1x magnification has no hinderance under 25 yards. Hell even up 3x magnification is not a hinderance if you actually shoot and not argue online. |
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Posted: 11/4/2018 2:51:10 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First of all, no one is saying that they NEED to make 300+ yard shots. What they are saying is that they prefer more magnification, as it makes target identification, shot placement AND possible longer ranged shots easier. Second, I don't believe you live in Nevada. I live out West and I know Nevada, outside of a building or range, you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. And 1x magnification has no hinderance under 25 yards. Hell even up 3x magnification is not a hinderance if you actually shoot and not argue online. |
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Posted: 11/4/2018 2:33:02 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First of all, no one is saying that they NEED to make 300+ yard shots. What they are saying is that they prefer more magnification, as it makes target identification, shot placement AND possible longer ranged shots easier. Second, I don't believe you live in Nevada. I live out West and I know Nevada, outside of a building or range, you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. And 1x magnification has no hinderance under 25 yards. Hell even up 3x magnification is not a hinderance if you actually shoot and not argue online. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I think this is actually the problem....people on here sit in their apartment and think they are on the varsity team every night. I have no doubt some people are badass with an LPVO, I also have no doubt that I wont be needing to leave a building and make 300 yard shots under fire, making the weight/size of an LPVO dumb to put on a HD rifle. Guys in that video are also using Eotech. In the end this argument doesn't even really matter because the likelihood of someone on here using their rifle for defense is almost zero. Second, I don't believe you live in Nevada. I live out West and I know Nevada, outside of a building or range, you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. And 1x magnification has no hinderance under 25 yards. Hell even up 3x magnification is not a hinderance if you actually shoot and not argue online. Second, I shoot a lot and spend lots of the time in the desert bunny blasting, and using a red dot is way better. If you want to make long accurate shots then use a rifle dedicated to that. Sorry but I can confidently hit a jackrabbit with an 11.5" MG out to 150 yards with an Aimpoint, there is no need for an LPVO. I use binoculars to identify things, I don't point rifles at people. Only on Arfcom can someone ask about a HD rifle and people start talking about needing to engage multiple targets at 300+yards LOL. Grow up, there isnt going to be some zombie apocalypse. You're welcome to spend a night bunny blasting if you're out this way, 9 hours of hopping in and out of a vehicle and aiming at running jackrabbits and you'll be begging for an Eotech over an LPVO. Sorry, but I own LPVOs, and one by one they are all taken off and replaced by Aimpoint or Eotech. I buy all this stuff, so i'm not arguing against one or the other without using them. I can put a LPVO on a rifle, I choose not to. Bolt guns and longer heavier rifles have scopes on them and go in the truck for long shots. An all around rifle that would be used for HD def has a red dot on it. The only thing I could think of to use an LPVO is in combat overseas or maybe if you owned a large ranch on the border and patrolled your land on foot and could only have one rifle. " you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. " = What are you shooting at so far away? I'm talking DEFENSE, and bunny blasting you wait until they run across the road or jump out of a bush, with white lights you're shots are almost always under 100 yards. Most jack rabbits I shoot are around 20 yards. Most of the shooting I do out in the desert is within 50 yards, just like HD would be. I don't know where you live but if you want to do a fun trip, go up to Tonopah and park off a road. Go walk through the desert with a rifle. Middle of the day you'll jump tons of rabbits. They jump out of nowhere and run all over. It's excellent practice with your rifle. Most of NV is BLM so just go hunt those rabbits. 3x magnifier is a waste of weight. I shoot 5-10,000 rounds a year at running jackrabbits. I'm more than confident with my defense rifle with a red dot on it. Sounds like you need to go shoot more and post less. Drive over to NV next weekend and practice with your different setups, I'd love to see how your opinion changes on civilian defense optics. 
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Posted: 11/5/2018 12:56:21 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely NV all the way, and being in Nevada I know that I will not be in a gun fight out to 300 yards, its a lot safer here than people want to believe I guess. Second, I shoot a lot and spend lots of the time in the desert bunny blasting, and using a red dot is way better. If you want to make long accurate shots then use a rifle dedicated to that. Sorry but I can confidently hit a jackrabbit with an 11.5" MG out to 150 yards with an Aimpoint, there is no need for an LPVO. I use binoculars to identify things, I don't point rifles at people. Only on Arfcom can someone ask about a HD rifle and people start talking about needing to engage multiple targets at 300+yards LOL. Grow up, there isnt going to be some zombie apocalypse. You're welcome to spend a night bunny blasting if you're out this way, 9 hours of hopping in and out of a vehicle and aiming at running jackrabbits and you'll be begging for an Eotech over an LPVO. Sorry, but I own LPVOs, and one by one they are all taken off and replaced by Aimpoint or Eotech. I buy all this stuff, so i'm not arguing against one or the other without using them. I can put a LPVO on a rifle, I choose not to. Bolt guns and longer heavier rifles have scopes on them and go in the truck for long shots. An all around rifle that would be used for HD def has a red dot on it. The only thing I could think of to use an LPVO is in combat overseas or maybe if you owned a large ranch on the border and patrolled your land on foot and could only have one rifle. " you will NEVER be shooting under 100 yards at least. " = What are you shooting at so far away? I'm talking DEFENSE, and bunny blasting you wait until they run across the road or jump out of a bush, with white lights you're shots are almost always under 100 yards. Most jack rabbits I shoot are around 20 yards. Most of the shooting I do out in the desert is within 50 yards, just like HD would be. I don't know where you live but if you want to do a fun trip, go up to Tonopah and park off a road. Go walk through the desert with a rifle. Middle of the day you'll jump tons of rabbits. They jump out of nowhere and run all over. It's excellent practice with your rifle. Most of NV is BLM so just go hunt those rabbits. 3x magnifier is a waste of weight. I shoot 5-10,000 rounds a year at running jackrabbits. I'm more than confident with my defense rifle with a red dot on it. Sounds like you need to go shoot more and post less. Drive over to NV next weekend and practice with your different setups, I'd love to see how your opinion changes on civilian defense optics. https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7430/27627786881_25e061fbaa_b.jpg 20-50 yards? Rabbits? Shoot Deer, Elk and Mule deer at 600+ yards as is typical. Shoot coyotes at 300+ yards as is typical. I wouldn't give a rat's ass about shot placement on rabbits out to 150yards either. I even stated in my first response that I'm confident in my 1x prismatic scopes. No one is saying you muzzle sweep everything, except you. I use binoculars as well, but that doesn't help for spit when I find my target, switch to my rifle, and only have a red dot to make a 500+ yard shot on an animal. Magnification from a LPVO suddenly makes that transition as well as shot that much easier. Regarding HD, no one specified HD only, yet I addressed it as well already. Illuminated 1x magnification over a red dot will NOT result in your funeral. Regarding SHTF, no one honestly thinks it's it's going to happen, hell I don't even know of anyone that wants it to happen, but i have no issue with and know of plenty of people that take it into consideration regardless. More options are better than less. Etched reticle luminated LPVO gives everyone more options and only two possible downsides (weight and eyebox - which can be harsh or extremely plentiful depending on scope choice). And the courtesy of not aiming a rifle at others is a croc of crap in that fictional scenario. There's a reason why I would never go back to the Carson Dump range, as people there have no issue with muzzle sweeping the line, shooting your targets and not always cease firing when others are downrange, and that was in real life, no shtf scenario. You honestly believe that people will still not be doing the same or worse when there's no rule of law? But, it's only going to be temporary... How the hell do you know? And who the hell's going to prove anything about anything after such an event, even if it is temporary, anyway? Not everyone has good eyesight as well. There are those that, even with corrective lenses or sugery still do not have perfect vision. LPVOs are a boon to them. Next time you go kicking shrubs and blasting dirt for rodents, take a second to look up and around, there's a hell of a lot longer shots than 100 or even 150 yards, even in the city as well. You're content with your Red dots, cool, but don't pretend they offer more options than LPVOs, they just offer lighter weight and the most forgiving eye placement. |
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