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Posted: 10/18/2017 2:00:46 AM EDT
I see more and more people, including guys like Steve Fisher, going to 1.93 (or even higher) height mounts on their low power variable optics (1-4x, 1-6x, 1-8x) because of
reduced head strain and more natural position. However, when shooting close quarters, under cars or through barricades like the VTAC one, doesn't the huge setoff lead to problems? I know this has been discussed here before, but maybe even more people have tried it by now. So, would you put a higher mount on a general purpose carbine? Why? Why not? borrowed from member Callahan in an archived thread: 
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Posted: 10/18/2017 2:04:03 AM EDT
[#1]
so...
that beowulf guy was right the whole time? |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 4:21:56 AM EDT
[#2]
What worries me most is that mechnaical offsets gets even higher with those 1.93" mounts- and under stress
this is what may happen: Some years ago there was a situation where man was holding a woman hostage on a sidewalk at the entrance to a city shop. He had one arm around his hostage and was holding a knife to her throat. Police had responded and while a negotiator further down the sidewalk was talking to the man, another officer with a carbine took up a position about 25 yards away, across the street and behind a short wall. With this cover, the assailant had not seen him and so the officer believed he had a clear shot at the man with the knife.
The officer took steady aim and pressed off a shot, which impacted the wall that was about 5 yards in front of him. So here the officer had a good sight picture, but he forgot to account for mechanical offset, rendering his shot useless. Then, realizing his mistake, he added elevation to his position to clear the wall and was able to dispatch the knife-wielding assailant with his next shot. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 8:49:06 AM EDT
[#3]
While it's true that there is a smaller margin for error in this situation, if we're already training to account for mechanical offset, what is the problem?
Even saying this, I use 1.375" mounts most of the time because it's easier to shoot for precision with the tighter cheek weld, and I've never felt limited by it for speed with my SFP scopes. When I get a FFP LPVO, we'll see how that changes. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 10:04:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Found a video that shows the problem of off axis shooting very well (at 10:30):
 Off Axis Shooting With that, I am not convinced I want a higher mount. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 5:01:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Found a video that shows the problem of off axis shooting very well (at 10:30):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY26m52TOgk
With that, I am not convinced I want a higher mount. The off axis shooting offset occurs with all optics and all height over bores. It is like CQB distance engagements, you have to know and train for your holdoffs. The saying "high magazine side" will help in the beginning when training for off axis shooting. Take a six inch piece of steel and shoot from various ranges. Learn your holdoffs for different ranges specific to your rifle/optic combo. Keep running drills and your hold offs will be easy. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 5:26:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Natural for me is 1.4". Offhand or prone.
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Posted: 10/18/2017 5:39:32 PM EDT
[#7]
It’s primarily to clear the laser, some like it when wearing a promask.
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Posted: 10/18/2017 5:48:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What worries me most is that mechnaical offsets gets even higher with those 1.93" mounts- and under stress this is what may happen: https://www.eaglegunrangetx.com/shooting-fundamentals-mechanical-offset/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
What worries me most is that mechnaical offsets gets even higher with those 1.93" mounts- and under stress this is what may happen: Some years ago there was a situation where man was holding a woman hostage on a sidewalk at the entrance to a city shop. He had one arm around his hostage and was holding a knife to her throat. Police had responded and while a negotiator further down the sidewalk was talking to the man, another officer with a carbine took up a position about 25 yards away, across the street and behind a short wall. With this cover, the assailant had not seen him and so the officer believed he had a clear shot at the man with the knife.
The officer took steady aim and pressed off a shot, which impacted the wall that was about 5 yards in front of him. So here the officer had a good sight picture, but he forgot to account for mechanical offset, rendering his shot useless. Then, realizing his mistake, he added elevation to his position to clear the wall and was able to dispatch the knife-wielding assailant with his next shot. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 5:48:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Fad IMO. I've never felt cramped or slumped over or anything with even a 1.4" height over rail. It may be beneficial if you are wearing a gas mask or aiming through a red dot with night vision, but most shooters aren't doing that.
Interestingly, you can have a farther maximum point blank range with more height over bore. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 6:10:34 PM EDT
[#10]
The offset differences between a standard mount and a 'high' mount is less than a half inch. If you are shooting offhand, it doesn't make much difference.
I love the high mount as it is indeed a more comfortable position to shoot from, especially if you are shooting with the stock all the way out. It's also more comfortable if you are proned out and shooting uphill. And I also prefer it since it helps to clear any lights or lasers mounted on the 12 o'clock rail. The only reason I don't have one now is that Aero doesn't make an ultralight version so I make do with the 1.5". |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 8:58:36 PM EDT
[#11]
That looks about as high as the carry handle-mounted scope on my Colt Delta HBAR.
If it is, my experience shooting that back in the day says: too. frakking. high. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 11:41:02 PM EDT
[#12]
The AR is the only platform I have ever come across where people put their scope higher above the bore than necessary on purpose. Usually, people are trying to do the opposite. Unless you have a real need to raise the scope, I see only disadvantages to raising the height over bore.
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Posted: 10/19/2017 12:08:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looks about as high as the carry handle-mounted scope on my Colt Delta HBAR. If it is, my experience shooting that back in the day says: too. frakking. high. Standard scope mount = 2.7" High scope mount = 3.1" Carry handle mount = 3.75" |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:11:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Height over bore: Standard scope mount = 2.7" High scope mount = 3.1" Carry handle mount = 3.75" Personally, I find it more comfy and I'm less likely to be looking over the rim of my glasses because my head is straighter up. While on top of the carry handle is getting a bit high, it still works. I think somewhere smack dab between standard height and an optic on the carry handle is pretty much perfect. And as far as the height over the bore being an issue while shooting, then people that shoot the Tavor with an optic must just be having a horrible time. But my guess is that's not really the case. 
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:17:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AR is the only platform I have ever come across where people put their scope higher above the bore than necessary on purpose. Usually, people are trying to do the opposite. Unless you have a real need to raise the scope, I see only disadvantages to raising the height over bore. You're not seeing the benefits, because you're not looking very hard. Everything has it's upsides and downsides. Yes, you get a way tighter cheek weld with standard height. And that can be a good thing. But for me, and maybe some others, it does tilt your head forward some and it's not ideal to be looking up when aiming. Some stock designs help accommodate this but it's something I notice. |
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Posted: 10/23/2017 12:24:58 AM EDT
[#16]
If you have full buttplate contact in front of your shoulder, yeah. Try putting the heel into your shoulder pocket.
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Posted: 10/23/2017 12:45:16 AM EDT
[#17]
From my experience the standoff of a 1.93 mount is comparable to a 1/3 cowitness RDS mount. IMO the trouble starts under magnification. I've seen dudes plug barricades and skip rounds off the hoods of vehicles because they loose muzzle awareness by get sucked into a magnified tube. It's a training issue, not an equipment hinderence.
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Posted: 10/23/2017 11:34:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have full buttplate contact in front of your shoulder, yeah. Try putting the heel into your shoulder pocket. Even with the bottom half of the stock I'm still having to tilt my head forward: 
As opposed to this, up higher on the gun, more control, more upright head position, no looking over glasses rim. Yes, there is the cheek weld issue. I don't find it all that bad (to each his own, like I say, I thnk a compromise between the two is a good solution): 
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Posted: 10/23/2017 6:23:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but there's not doubt you have more control over the gun if your up on it more. So there is a trade off. It's no different than the lower a pistol is in your hand, the more control you have over it. Quicker follow up shots. So I'm in the camp that if you can get up on the gun and have a more natural head position, that is a good thing. If you have a short neck, it's not as much of a problem. I've got kind of a long neck and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Even with the bottom half of the stock I'm still having to tilt my head forward: https://i.imgur.com/3u9CE8o.jpg As opposed to this, up higher on the gun, more control, more upright head position, no looking over glasses rim. Yes, there is the cheek weld issue. I don't find it all that bad (to each his own, like I say, I thnk a compromise between the two is a good solution): https://i.imgur.com/EX9NYab.jpg  R.D. off hand shooting for AR 3:30  Arfcom PSA Challenge Attempt #1: Sporterized M1903A3 and NM AR15A2 The greater contact felt better in the arms, but I had to work hard for precision because of the moving eye.  Failed To Load Title Even 1.55" is too high unless someone has abnormally low cheekbones, long neck, or they need to see over fixed sights. I tried keeping the dot centered in the tube - no bueno, especially prone. No parallax was detected so I tried the natural, lower cheek weld - shall be better.  Red Dot Sight for CMP "Service Rifle"?  UltraDot Carbine There could be an argument for the chin gun. 
http://www.zediker.com/books/rifleshooter/rs_web_promos/rs_offhand_spread2.pdf |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 10:52:39 AM EDT
[#20]
The only 1.93" mount I have is of necessity. I prefer to get AR cheekweld right. But, I have a long 6-24x50 target scope with 4" sunshade. I use it for load development and some precision shooting situations. It has fine target cross hairs and tall 1/8 MOA click turrets. It is so long with the shade attached that the objective bell will not clear the folded front sight on a 12" rail mounted in a standard height Larue QD. I had to go to their 1.93" QD to clear the folded MBUS Pro. Cheekweld suffers a bit, but it works.
I really can't see mounting a LPV that high. I run my red dots absolute co witness too, to get better cheek weld. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 11:28:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Sounds like the call of a dremel cutoff wheel.
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Posted: 10/24/2017 12:18:43 PM EDT
[#22]
To see if a high mount will help you, try this:
Setup your camera on tripod to video yourself or have someone else do it. Set a target out at 10-15 yards. Get in whatever stance you use and and from the low ready, mount your rifle. If you mount the rifle and then move your head and neck so you can get a sight picture (aka bringing your eye to the gun), you may benefit from a high mount. With a high mount, you are bringing the rifle to your eye and not the other way around. |
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