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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:35:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 9:41:27 PM EDT by Mr10anahaf]
A buddy and I have decided to try our hand at coyote hunting, and will both be using AR's. I'm thinking I should take off my Eotech and go with something with some magnification. However neither my friend nor I have much hunting experience and I have a sneaking suspicion that our attempt at hunting will turn more into excuse to get out of the house and walk around the woods with our AR's.

For that reason I don't want to drop much on a scope as I most likely will not use it much. I love my Eotech and understand that with optics you get what you pay for, so going on the cheep I'm not expecting much, save the lectures please.

That said I don't really know much about magnified optics, however I think these are the characteristics I'm going to want to look for. Good light gathering, as we plan to hunt nights and sunset / day break. Ease of use, I don't need anything fancy, I don't know how to work a bullet drop compensator. Built in rings or quick detach rings, so I can get my Eotech back on when were done hunting.How about an illuminated radical, worth it? I'm sure there are are some things I have not taken into consideration. So lets have it, your suggestions on a cheap scope for 100yd shots and coyotes.

BTW it' will be going on a Enty. Tac. RR flat top. Thanks Guys!


ETA: Any coyote hunting advice is also welcomed, I know it take more than a trigger finger and a scope, I just felt that topic was better left in the hunting forum
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:48:48 PM EDT
if you plan on buying cheap/crap optics i would probably just save the money and just use the eotech.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:25:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
if you plan on buying cheap/crap optics i would probably just save the money and just use the eotech.



OK, that was more than helpful, you answered my questions and so much more. Anyone else want to give it a shot?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:30:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 1:33:27 PM EDT by Arkansas_Rocketman]
I don't know what your terrain is like, but around here most shots will be 100 yards or less. A dot sight or a low powered scope would be fine.

A quality 2.5X or 4X scope from Leupold, Burris ought to do the trick. The old style Weaver K series scopes are relatively cheap and clear too.

'Course, you will probably hear from the uber-tactical mall ninjas who will recommend a 36X minimum
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:03:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 2:03:57 PM EDT by Mr10anahaf]
OK so what your saying is that for shots under 100yds a 10x is too much? I looked at a couple of scopes on line last night. Found this cheapo LINK
Seems made for low light and has a 3.3 eye relief, would that be needed with an AR?
I really don't want this to turn into a price argument, as stated above it's just going to be temporary, if I find either one of us have a knack for hunting or I find that I like magnification, then by all means I will run right out and get a Leupold or Super Sniper. However with the market for used scopes being what it is I don't want to make that investment right now. I'm sure there has to be a few of us using scopes that work reasonably well that are priced in the range of $100.00-200.00.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:37:01 PM EDT
I use my AR for coyote hunting. I had to laugh at your comment about using it as an excuse for walking around the woods with your AR, since most of the time I wind up blasting anything that moves; sticks, stumps, crows. :D However, when I do get serious about Yote hunting, I like a 3x9 or even better 1.5x6 variable scope on my AR. For the price range you mention, you could probably get one of Nikons new offerings geared toward the money concious hunter. Optic quality on Nikons is great and in my opinion dont compare to cheaper scopes like the Bushnell you had a link for. Check out www.theopticzone.com for some great prices on scopes.

As far as advice for yotes...check out Varmint Als website...do a google for the link. He has a lot of information on there that you may be able to use.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:03:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgtshultzy266:
I use my AR for coyote hunting. I had to laugh at your comment about using it as an excuse for walking around the woods with your AR, since most of the time I wind up blasting anything that moves; sticks, stumps, crows. :D However, when I do get serious about Yote hunting, I like a 3x9 or even better 1.5x6 variable scope on my AR. For the price range you mention, you could probably get one of Nikons new offerings geared toward the money concious hunter. Optic quality on Nikons is great and in my opinion dont compare to cheaper scopes like the Bushnell you had a link for. Check out www.theopticzone.com for some great prices on scopes.

As far as advice for yotes...check out Varmint Als website...do a google for the link. He has a lot of information on there that you may be able to use.



Thank you for a reply that actually answered my questions, I'll have to check out both sites you mentioned. A far as the link to the scope I provided, I have an amazon gift card that I was hoping to use that was the only scope that I found that was close to what I was looking for.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:47:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 4:51:05 PM EDT by leanandfit1]
I have a simmons 3-9 and it holds zero well and should fit your bill -i've taken 3 yote's in the last two weeks and hope you have good luck and a good time with this! this time of year the male's are brought out with a challenge howl and a rabbit distress works most anytime.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:46:15 PM EDT
I have a Leopold on my 270. I have an eotech on my Armalite a4. I have a simmons aetec on my RR 18 inch varminter. I love the Aetec because it has a lit recticle and stays were I put it and it is very clear. I know people are having a fit that someone could recommend a simmons but I am!
Natchez had them on closeout in there last flier.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:02:00 PM EDT
Anyone ever use Barska scopes ? I found one that that's 6.5x20x 50mm seems a bit more powered than what some of you recommend, but with rings it's in my price range. 50mm should be enough for dusk/dawn shooting correct? Also I was curious about illuminated scopes, while I'm sure there is more to it, it would seem to be that looking at a light would lower my natural night vision or are they too dim to make a difference.

While I'm at it I have a harris bi-pod, so I guess I'll need to mount that to my AR's rail, any suggestions as to a mount for this ?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:26:17 PM EDT
Go with a 3x9 and get an electronic call. I suggest visiting this forum.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:54:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 6:58:57 PM EDT by Onslaught]
I think 3-9 is too much for a night hunt like you're talking.

Do some reading (if you haven't already) on exit pupil diameter and such... The higher you crank up the magnification, the dimmer the image will get.

I think Sgtshultzy266 hit the nail on the head with the 1.5-6x.

All of these are out of your price range, but the logic is still sound...

Burris makes their "EuroDiamond" scopes with some geared specifically for low light hunting. What you'll find is that they have large objectives and low magnification, which equals larger exit pupil diameter. They have a 1.5-6x40 that would probably be ideal.

The IOR M2 advertises an 8mm exit pupil diameter, although my math says 6mm.

The ACOG is one of the brightest scopes I've ever looked through, and it's a 4x with a 32mm obj. giving it an 8mm EPD for sure.

I was thinking that the new IOR 1.1-4 with 223 reticle would be great for low light hunting. Nearly "dot sight" capable for running game or while stalking, with the ability to crank up the power for longer shots.

You didn't mention illuminated reticles... but I would think they'd be very helpful. Bushnell has a "firefly reticle" that glows in the dark. I can tell you from limited armadillo popping experience that at least a FAT reticle is in order, with a good illuminated reticle with a LOT of adjustment being the best.

Back to your el-cheap0 budget scope though, (believe it or not) I've seen several people who had decent luck with the BSA Cat's Eye scopes in the LOWER MAGNIFICATIONS! Those 8-32 "mil-dot" scopes are total crap, but their lower powered stuff is better than a toilet-paper tube with spray-painted Q-tips for crosshairs.

I plan on building a coyote specific rig one of these days, (I get invited every year, but haven't followed through) and if I do, I'll be looking at the IORs or the Burris Euros.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:20:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Onslaught:
I think 3-9 is too much for a night hunt like you're talking.

Do some reading (if you haven't already) on exit pupil diameter and such... The higher you crank up the magnification, the dimmer the image will get.

I think Sgtshultzy266 hit the nail on the head with the 1.5-6x.

All of these are out of your price range, but the logic is still sound...

Burris makes their "EuroDiamond" scopes with some geared specifically for low light hunting. What you'll find is that they have large objectives and low magnification, which equals larger exit pupil diameter. They have a 1.5-6x40 that would probably be ideal.

The IOR M2 advertises an 8mm exit pupil diameter, although my math says 6mm.

The ACOG is one of the brightest scopes I've ever looked through, and it's a 4x with a 32mm obj. giving it an 8mm EPD for sure.

I was thinking that the new IOR 1.1-4 with 223 reticle would be great for low light hunting. Nearly "dot sight" capable for running game or while stalking, with the ability to crank up the power for longer shots.

You didn't mention illuminated reticles... but I would think they'd be very helpful. Bushnell has a "firefly reticle" that glows in the dark. I can tell you from limited armadillo popping experience that at least a FAT reticle is in order, with a good illuminated reticle with a LOT of adjustment being the best.

Back to your el-cheap0 budget scope though, (believe it or not) I've seen several people who had decent luck with the BSA Cat's Eye scopes in the LOWER MAGNIFICATIONS! Those 8-32 "mil-dot" scopes are total crap, but their lower powered stuff is better than a toilet-paper tube with spray-painted Q-tips for crosshairs.

I plan on building a coyote specific rig one of these days, (I get invited every year, but haven't followed through) and if I do, I'll be looking at the IORs or the Burris Euros.



I have the IOR M2. Excellent value for the money and a illuminated reticule too. I bought it for a 6.8 remington project and got the CQB reticule.

If you go to PreditorMasters you will find a number of threads on picking a scope. Another scource for information is to call Mike as CSgunworks he knows more about scopes then I ever will and ususally has the best price. A good combination reguardless of what you buy.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:48:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Onslaught:
I think 3-9 is too much for a night hunt like you're talking.

Do some reading (if you haven't already) on exit pupil diameter and such... The higher you crank up the magnification, the dimmer the image will get.

I think Sgtshultzy266 hit the nail on the head with the 1.5-6x.

.



Thank you, I had no idea about the exit pupil being effected by the amount of magnification. Makes sense, I'll see what I can find under 10X. To go along with that , lets say you have a scope that's 50mm, but is adjustable from 4x to what ever. If kept on the lowest power setting, would the same still apply. Or does it only work for fixed power scope? Can you follow what I trying to ask?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:55:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Onslaught:


Back to your el-cheap0 budget scope though, (believe it or not) I've seen several people who had decent luck with the BSA Cat's Eye scopes in the LOWER MAGNIFICATIONS! Those 8-32 "mil-dot" scopes are total crap, but their lower powered stuff is better than a toilet-paper tube with spray-painted Q-tips for crosshairs.



How bout this one CATSEYE has the lower magnication and an IR.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 8:11:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 8:15:57 PM EDT by Onslaught]

Originally Posted By Mr10anahaf:
Thank you, I had no idea about the exit pupil being effected by the amount of magnification. Makes sense, I'll see what I can find under 10X. To go along with that , lets say you have a scope that's 50mm, but is adjustable from 4x to what ever. If kept on the lowest power setting, would the same still apply. Or does it only work for fixed power scope? Can you follow what I trying to ask?


I understand... It still applies. Lens coatings play a huge part in light transmission, but for the exit pupil part (which you still can't fight no matter how good the coating is) you divide the magnification by the objective diameter. For your scenario, that's 12.5mm. Since the human eye can't dilate more than 6mm or 8mm (depending on age, etc.) then getting significantly more than that is not going to make it any brighter, BUT if you have a 12mm exit pupil and your eye is dilated 6mm, then you have a 6mm buffer in case your eye isn't exactly in the right spot.


Originally Posted By Mr10anahaf:

How bout this one CATSEYE has the lower magnication and an IR.



Looking over at MidwayUSA I see that there are a couple of positive reviews on this scope in particular (3.5 stars overall). I think another very good thing about it is the large occular lens. that makes it easier to see as well. The "european" reticle has very thick posts and works well in low light.

I don't have one, so I can't give you MY opinion of this exact scope, but given your stated parameters, use, price, etc. I think it has features that could make it a good choice.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:41:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr10anahaf:
...For that reason I don't want to drop much on a scope as I most likely will not use it much.... So lets have it, your suggestions on a cheap scope for 100yd shots and coyotes.



Simmons 4X. Inexpensive and, of course, easy to use. If you need, you can always upgrade later.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:05:59 AM EDT
Before you go any farther realize there is no good cheap mount or ring set up for the AR-15. Most pay more for there mounts and rings then you are thinking about for the scope.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:42:09 AM EDT
Your welcome Mr 10.5....Onslaught really gave some good advice. Sorry I didnt get into as much detail but he really hit the nail on the head.

Illuminated reticles really do give an advantage for yote hunting, but unfortunately get quite pricey. I have Nikons 1.5x6 Monarch which I usually keep on my slug shotgun. It has a 30 mm main tube and is a great scope. However, if I were to buy a scope specifically for my AR and yotes...I would look at the Burris XTR 1.5x6 illuminated reticle scope or the Eurodiamond mentioned by Onslaught. Yote hunting is addictive...just like spring turkey hunting for me...and the next thing ya know youll be buying electronic callers and every other gadget you can think of.

Just for everyones information, I went shooting the other day with a friend of mine who had a Swarovski scope on his 300mag..and a Leupold VXIII on his 22.250. Same magnification and objective sizes...and yet to both of us the Leupold was much clearer. What a surprise since the Swaro cost about a grand more!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:51:56 AM EDT
This is the scope I have used for my slug gun (and if it can take that HEAVY, HEAVY abuse, it can definitely take a 223 round or 2) and it works pretty well (it may be cheaper to buy a "non-shotgun" scope though, not sure on that part). I would think you could spend somewhere btw $50-100 and get what you need, no reason to buy the $800 scopes unless you want to burn some money or it is a critical (life-threatening situation) device IMO.

BTW, I shot a running coyote from 10 yds with this scope on my slug gun, so they aren't that bad for "fast target acquisition" if you can shoot well...

http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnell-trophy-1-75-5x32mm-shotgun-riflescope-731500.html

Make sure to visit predatormasters.com...it is FULL of coyote info!
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