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Posted: 2/22/2006 8:58:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:44:16 AM EDT
I too am researching this. I'm atempting to buy new ones off of mil surplus website that normally deals with gov agencies. i have registered on the site and asked for a price quote. if they have any and can sell them, i'll let you guys know. have not heard back as of yet though.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:41:12 AM EDT
As I recall, some folks have called Matech and were told they did not sell to civilians.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:21:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:39:58 AM EDT
Or
Like I have seen, a Marine in a mixed command with his own optic on an A4 and an Army Armorer giving him a BUIS. When he got home, off came the optic and on went the carrying handle. "whoever" let him keep his back up.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:03:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:23:43 AM EDT
If we counted how many have been sold on the EE we would be surprised. To many being sold how could they all be coming back from the sandbox?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:08:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 10:27:47 AM EDT by HogSniper]
What is so great about the MaTech buis? Aren't there many buis deployed by various companies? Not trying to be sarcastic, just wondering what's so special about them vs other sights?


Thanks,
HS
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:48:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherm8404:
Things get tossed to guys all the time. I have issue gear that supply doesn't want back, at all. Supplies get placed properly in soldiers hands all the time. Sometimes due to excess they aren't pulled back in and the soldier/Marine is left with gear he didn't steal but the unit does not want.

If he resells it, is that now "stolen" gear? It may well be a .mil only item in the sense that it is only available to the .mil. But it's not IR lasers or NVGs type items.

Another example, we switched from woodland to digi camo in 2003. My unit, t empty the old BDUs issued us three sets of woodland BDUs.

Utterly useless to me. Can't wear it to drill/deployand it's sitting in a box in my basement. But it's .mil issued. If I sell it is that illegal?





That's very true, but there is not an overrun on Matechs...rather, we don't have enough. It's not like BDUS.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 12:49:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 2:31:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 2:47:44 PM EDT by pcurtis]
[qoute]Nothing really, there are plenty of equivalent or better products out there. [/qoute]

For an M4, MATECH or a KAC 300/600M sight is a poor fit. The ARMS #40 and Troy etc. a more suited to the weapon's application. For a SPR, 20" DMR or RECCE/RECON, they are a better fit. How something that was original a USAF SF issue BUIS (and a poor fit at best for that application) has gotten such ?wide? distribution to USA and NG units is a little surprising.


[qoute]we're trying to figure out if all are purloined .mil gear or not.[/qoute]

Only someone in the "Puzzle" Palace CID can possibly answer that, but I even doubt they can.

Just because something is listed on a website (or the company reponse is), its .mil/LE only, doesn't mean it is not available on the Civy side legally. Case in point, BH MK262 MOD1 and Hornaday 5.56MM and SAMMI 75gr LE loadings (non-PD), there are many legal venues for a Civy to purchase these. Yes, they are rare, but they do exist.

Get some none Internet conjecture before posting on this type issue and implying theft on any scale. They have been shown to be BS with respect to other claims mant times in the past.

ETA: I have several friends currently in the sandbox that are stationed out of Ft. Hood, they have the normal gripes, but this type of EQ is not one. Maybe its just NG related.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 3:19:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 3:20:03 PM EDT by WILDBILL756]
AMEETEC ARMS sells them . You have email them for a price.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:33:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chris157c:
I too am researching this. I'm atempting to buy new ones off of mil surplus website that normally deals with gov agencies. i have registered on the site and asked for a price quote. if they have any and can sell them, i'll let you guys know. have not heard back as of yet though.



It's getting bad when you quote yourself. I guess the company would have sold me one, but they don't have any right now... They did not say it was restricted, just that they don't have any in stock. Not like I really want one anyways, just trying to find an answer to a question...
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:40:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 4:43:02 PM EDT by Duffy]
Honestly I don't see what the big deal is about the Matech. It's clunky and rather tall, takes up more rail space than KAC 300M. If I hadn't messed up the mounting screw (broke from over torquing, same would never happen with an ARMS, KAC, Troy or GG&G unit) I'd sell the one I bought two years ago before it became such a hit and must have
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:45:35 PM EDT
Some dumbass recently posted a very similar claim, that all Matech's are stolen mil products...blah blah blah. He claimed to have spoken with a mid manager at Matech who told him all were to mil customers, which somehow led him to claim that none should be in civy hands.

Dumbness defined.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:31:39 PM EDT
Looks like they are coming on the new Colt 1020's and they're not for military consumption.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:05:53 PM EDT
Ever since I bought my MATECH BUIS this van has been parked accross the street from my house. And my phone makes weird clicking noises..........

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:54:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 7:01:01 PM EDT by HercMech]

Originally Posted By pcurtis:
[qoute]Nothing really, there are plenty of equivalent or better products out there. [/qoute]

For an M4, MATECH or a KAC 300/600M sight is a poor fit. The ARMS #40 and Troy etc. a more suited to the weapon's application. For a SPR, 20" DMR or RECCE/RECON, they are a better fit. How something that was original a USAF SF issue BUIS AR15 (and a poor fit at best for that application) has gotten such ?wide? distribution to USA and NG units is a little surprising.blue]


[qoute]we're trying to figure out if all are purloined .mil gear or not.[/qoute]

Only someone in the "Puzzle" Palace CID can possibly answer that, but I even doubt they can.

Just because something is listed on a website (or the company reponse is), its .mil/LE only, doesn't mean it is not available on the Civy side legally. Case in point, BH MK262 MOD1 and Hornaday 5.56MM and SAMMI 75gr LE loadings (non-PD), there are many legal venues for a Civy to purchase these. Yes, they are rare, but they do exist.

Get some none Internet conjecture before posting on this type issue and implying theft on any scale. They have been shown to be BS with respect to other claims mant times in the past.

ETA: I have several friends currently in the sandbox that are stationed out of Ft. Hood, they have the normal gripes, but this type of EQ is not one. Maybe its just NG related.



I fixed it for you. But kidding aside a bunch of Marines just got busted for selling military stuff out in SD.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:51:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 7:51:50 PM EDT by gcpd19]
Tag for all the Matech humor.......That reminds me, I need to go buy another one.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:13:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherm8404:
Things get tossed to guys all the time. I have issue gear that supply doesn't want back, at all. Supplies get placed properly in soldiers hands all the time. Sometimes due to excess they aren't pulled back in and the soldier/Marine is left with gear he didn't steal but the unit does not want.




This is true, got plenty of "issue" here obtained the same way.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:03:56 AM EDT
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=332016

Still in the .gov wrappers, with NSNs ect.

On the bright side the guy already is in Kansas, so he wont have far to travel.

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:37:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=332016

Still in the .gov wrappers, with NSNs ect.

On the bright side the guy already is in Kansas, so he wont have far to travel.




My ACOG amd LMT Sopmod stock have NSN numbers on them. Should I be expecting a knock at the door?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:09:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
My ACOG amd LMT Sopmod stock have NSN numbers on them. Should I be expecting a knock at the door?



Probably Not, as long as you got them thru legit sources. The ACOG would be real easy to find out. Serial Numbered Property Book items are the easiest to figure out where it fell out of the truck.............

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:49:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 7:09:49 AM EDT by gcpd19]
Here is the question that I ask all the anit-Matech people. Since there is no clear cut answer from Matech on who they actually sell to, there have been various reputable dealers on the board that have sold them, why all the problems from you? It is not a NFA regulated item, it does not conform to any federal import/export laws, etc...Look at how many other items are out in the world that civilians can get. Take MRE's for example, I'm sure that not all of the ones that you see at your local Gov't Surplus store where bought or obtained through correct means, does the Gov't go after them? I would venture to say, that unless OSI, CID, NIS or any other organization is not investigating the matter, the matter is dead. Yes STOLEN property from the Gov't is not good, yes there needs to be watch-dogs out there to stop that, but PROVE that the items are stolen or not obtained legally, and you have an arguement. The fact that Joe Blow claims that he made a phone call to certain employee's at a certain company does not prove anything. There needs to be a paper trail of documents from companies stating that we don't do this, if these items are located outside of certain legally obtained circles, then yes they are illegally obtained. Gov't conctarctors sell items that they are not deamed sensitive all the time, they may say they don't, but they do, you know this as well as I do.

Just as a side note, I'm not saying that your wrong, I'm just saying there is no proof that your correct......Oh, I will be making another phone call to Matech, I also got the run around answer from them. They would not say yes they do, or no they don't sell outside the Federal Government.

And I guess Colt is in violation of something since there new piston driven rifle is sporting one? This rifle is not intended for the Military, and I'm sure someone here that is outside the Gov't/LEO arena is going to get one, so under your idea of theft of Gov't property, even thinking about or attempting to purchase the new Colt rifle is attempt to receive stolen property? USE YOUR BRAIN PEOPLE.....
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:59:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Some dumbass recently posted a very similar claim, that all Matech's are stolen mil products...blah blah blah. He claimed to have spoken with a mid manager at Matech who told him all were to mil customers, which somehow led him to claim that none should be in civy hands.

Dumbness defined.



Yeah, that guy from Alaska.... I thought this was dej-a-vu! We have had this conversation before and it really got hot!
They are still for sale on ebarf.

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:09:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gcpd19:
It is not a NFA regulated item, it does not conform to any federal import/export laws, etc



It does violate the ITAR to export these without a permit. Even the Lighthouse for the blind items that my company purchases thru GSA have ITAR permit numbers on the shipping docs when they finally get to me way out in the jungla.

I agree that we need something in black and white from the manufacturer.

It took a long time to getr the whole SAPI/Intercepter vest crap squared away, and its going to take awhile for the sights to get fixed.

While we all have to tone down our speech so as to not subject the owners to the electron microscope treatment they got because of the Rebel Gray snafu, I would think that protecting them from what is in my untrained eye "Criminal Facilitation(sp?)" should be just as important never mind the fact that we have members reporting that their joes dont have BUIS's to stay in the fight after hitting IED's that destroy their optics.

If we do not allow the Blue Falcons access to the market, even it its just the arfkom market, perhaps the items will stay in the supply system and get to the end user who needs the gear.

I totally understand that sometimes you get to take stuff home with you, but I never got to take 5 BUIS's still in the wrapper home with me...................



Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:17:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 7:21:23 AM EDT by gcpd19]

should be just as important never mind the fact that we have members reporting that their joes dont have BUIS's to stay in the fight after hitting IED's that destroy their optics.


So what's new with this, ask any verteran who has deployed or gone to war and I bet 100% of them will tell you that they did not have what they wanted or needed, I didn't....This boils down to supply and logistics, commanders and people in charge of asking troops what they want. You have some that are so old school that they will not authorize anything. Its the whole, I didn't have it and survived, so why do you need it attitude. Then you have other commanders that can get anything and listen to their troops.

Time will tell on the truth of this Matech BUIS dilema, and yes I'm sure some of them out there where stolen by Pvt. Whomever and sold on Ebay or here, but I'm sure some are obtained legally and sold here, I'm not going to include Ebay in on this....
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:55:24 AM EDT
Well here are 3 for sale on E-Bay! If these are what we are discussing...


http://cgi.ebay.com/BUIS-MATECH-600-METER-FLIP-SIGHT_W0QQitemZ7221489784QQcategoryZ36258QQssPageNa­meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matech-SOPMOD-Buis-600m_W0QQitemZ7220377375QQcategoryZ52513QQssPageNa­meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/MATECH-Adjustable-BUIS-for-Picatinny-Rail-System-NEW_W0QQitemZ7221330715QQcategoryZ36258QQssPageNa­meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Wonder where they came from???
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:01:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 8:04:47 AM EDT by gcpd19]
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:26:08 AM EDT
Thanks!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:50:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 8:58:07 AM EDT by ICU]
Worst BUIS on the market. These Matech discussions are a huge waste of time. If some dude who gets shot @ for a living to keep my freedoms feels he needs an extra $100... Let him sell the friggin thing. Dont like, want it, have morality issues... Thats life, deal w/ it. -Justin

Edit to add- For all we know they are being sold by individuals to upgrade to a better BUIS. One that dosent have a knob by the charging handle to tear you to shit. Or maybe someone figured you dont need elevation out to 800m w/ a 5.56.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:00:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ICU:
Worst BUIS on the market. These Matech discussions are a huge waste of time. If some dude who gets shot @ for a living to keep my freedoms feels he needs an extra $100... Let him sell the friggin thing. Dont like, want it, have morality issues... Thats life, deal w/ it. -Justin

Edit to add- For all we know they are being sold by individuals to upgrade to a better BUIS. One that dosent have a knob by the charging handle to tear you to shit. Or maybe someone figured you dont need elevation out to 800m w/ a 5.56.





Very good point!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:01:06 AM EDT
Blame it on the system, in non theft related examples, for issue items going beyond the fence. Corps level/IG inspections would be the biggest culprit. You have Platoon Sergeants holding onto hard to get, non-sensative iteam, like a matech, and hording them in their platoon lockers so they always have them. Then you have a major inspection come down the pike, somebody sees 20 more of something than they are supposed to have, and Sergeant Save My Ass tells whoever to get rid of them now, and they do to save from a bad NCOER. It is the nature of the beast, and the way it has been done in the .mil for a long long time.

I can show you pics of my Dad and his crew on a U.S. Army LCM dumping 5 new GMC 6-71 Blowers, new crated heads to a Detroit Diesal, and 20-25 new .50cal barrels into the James River in 1967. Getting rid of them to pass an ig inspection, the way it has always been done. Of course karma dictates that they needed those items sorely less than a year later on the Mekong River in Vietnam.

So there will always be an issue of shortages, at times, when you have a system that ruins a persons career just because they got too many gigs on an inspection. That is an ugly fact that will never go away in a zero defect organization.

As for outright theft of issue items for profit, totally unsat in CONUS, unforgiveable in the Sand Box. Bravo Foxtrots like that, who create critical shortages in a war zone, need put on permanent convoy securtity so their asses most likely get blown away. Simple as that.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:54:46 PM EDT
When I was "in" I had a buddy return from GW 1 with a sealed in cosmoline and plastic Colt 1911 that he was issued as a tanker. Nobody asked for it back so he didn't offer. Instead of jumping on people buying and selling on an internet board perhaps that energy would be best directed at the system that isn't keeping track of what it owns.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:34:15 PM EDT
Man when I think of the stuff sitting buried somewhere in a burn pit in the desert outside of KKMC in Saudi! After Desert Storm when we were back in Saudi waiting out our turn to fly back to Germany my CAV unit had to unload all the extra shit we couldn’t bring back. My unit was deactivating upon our return to Germany and the extra shit had to go! Our ground vehicles stayed in Saudi so all the extra shit we brought with us couldn’t be brought back.

We had a extra helicopter mechanics basic issue tool box that I used to replace lost tools from for my guys boxes. I couldn’t give away the rest, so it got tossed in the burn pit box and all!

I ETS’d with so much crap that the Army simply didn’t want back! You try to turn it in and your turned away.

If these MATECH’s are being transferred from unit to unit upon rotation and are disappearing, then the units need to start hand receipting the BUIS’s to each soldier!
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:38:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

If these MATECH’s are being transferred from unit to unit upon rotation and are disappearing, then the units need to start hand receipting the BUIS’s to each soldier!



I agree.

These talks about the Matechs are like advertise to new comers and probably increase the demands of them on EE and Ebays.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:52:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 11:10:11 AM EDT by Marine2f2]
So are these things legit or not.....I haven't seen any conclusive evidence either way.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:40:33 PM EDT
I had one on deployment. They are issued on the Rapid Fielding Initiative which in simple terms means that they (GOVT) buys stuff outside normal channels and gives them to you in a rapid manner before you head out. We received our RFI items in Ft. Bliss. We had a ton of stuff that came in handy Gerber Multi tools, underwear (the silky black kind) , Surefire flashlights, improved helmets.
The problem is accountability. MATECH sights were small items that many units did not think twice about hand receipting out. So I can only guess that a a lot of them went unaacounted for. On another note I thought you couldn't sell gun parts on EvilBay?
BTW, I liked my MATECH sight. It had windage and elevation compared to an ARMS. It was quick to deploy if you need and was rather simple to use.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:51:29 AM EDT
PSYWAR1-0


I totally understand that sometimes you get to take stuff home with you, but I never got to take 5 BUIS's still in the wrapper home with me............


This in a nut shell is what most of us are talking about. it's not the individual snuffy that gets a few things left in his duffel bag to take home... it's the guys selling 5 NIW Aimpoints in the Government issue box with the government issue TM manual that I have a hard on over. The problem is if your a civilian and you've never seen the difference between the two packages, you don't know...

Matech never returned my Email and my guess is I would not have gotten anything that would substantiate their position on this subject.

See this Aimpoint box, it's what they look like when you buy from Aimpoint or a dealer. No NSN.s or TM's





Now if you see a guy whose username is basically his military rank and his MOS and his posted location is on or near a military base and he has 5 NIW Aimpoints or PAC-4's or Matechs or Surefires Weapons lights and he post's pics and they have the Government printed Technical Manual along with the non descript white or brown box.........

Chances are they are not from a legal source. That's my take on this whole Matech issue Caveat Emptor......
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