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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:05:34 AM EDT
[#1]
good weight, but it'll come down to price.
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:15:18 AM EDT
[#2]
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. 
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:17:37 AM EDT
[#3]
What fun is a debate/discussion with only one side?  C4 |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 12:09:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Guys- I already talked with paulosantos and he understands what I meant. Now I'll share it with you.
I understand he made a mistake but it's the fact that when I mentioned to him that "of course it won't work" (yeah I know it was a little sassy) he turned around and showed a pictures as if to say "of course it works, look right here!" I explained to him I understood that you can put a longer rail over a low profile gas block but it was silly to assume you'd be able to get a front sight on that uneven rail. He understood that showing the pictures of the rails fitting had nothing to do with what I was saying. Are you guys saying the lower portion of this setup is polymer? I didn't get that from the ad but I guess you could read it that way. They seem to believe that this system does a very good job at directing heat through the fore end. You guys are thinking it doesn't? |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 12:28:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Ever look at an ARMS SIR? The bottom rail is polymer. This "new" rail from ARMS has the same bottom. Polymer does not transfer heat. This is good and bad all in the same shot IMHO. Most folks run a VG and or wear gloves when they shoot so heat transfer really isn't an issue. Those folks that don't wear gloves or like a VG would most likely enjoy a polymer section. C4 |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#6]
How does Midwest Industries get away with their FF rail systems, then? WIZZO |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 1:39:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Let's hope it's more reasonable than the past SIR line. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 1:49:29 PM EDT
[#8]
I always thought those were all aluminum. Never knew the bottoms were polymer. I always assumed they were the same material as the upper parts. they did a good job matching the color!
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Posted: 2/6/2006 2:59:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Heat rises. A lower polymer rail would not have nearly the effect you describe. I know what you are talking about though. IIRC, the danger would lie in the 150 rounds per minute range. That would be 5 mag dumps. Who the hell would do 5 mag dumps? Just a guess here, but I think that if the US military had the same opinion you do, they would have recalled the thousands of SIR system issued over the last 10 + years. Not to mention the MILLIONS of standard handguards used on issued M4s and M16s all over the world. We have thousands of troops in combat with standard handguards who have never had that problem. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:06:38 PM EDT
[#10]
WIZZO, I have no idea. There are several companies that use that type of barrel nut attachment. If they are doing things the right way, they are building under a license agreement with ARMS. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:18:21 PM EDT
[#11]
JosephR, It is a very good thing. In fact, the US Military is working with several different options to reduce heat on weapon systems. Ceramic coatings are another option that is being explored. The use of polymers is prefered in many aspects because it can be mass produced in greater numbers with a very close tolerance on quality control. (it is also less expensive in the long run) Magpul is a great example of this. Polymers are expanding their roll in many places we never thought we would see them. If you told Colt 30 years ago that a European gun manufacturer would make a "plastic" pistol that would out sell anything they would ever make, they would have laughed. Look who is laughing now. Everybody BUT Colt makes a polymer pistol. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:22:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Actually my "opinion" is not mine at all. Someone "in the know" passed along some intel that the Military IS doing some testing on this very subject and will be taking their findings to Crane. C4 |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:48:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Is it just the bottom panel of the rail that is polymer, and the top aluminum? If so, I am missing the point of the heat sinking debate. If the top is aluminum and the bottom a polymer, you would still have a fair amount of heat sinking in the top part of the rail. This set up would have less surface area compared to larger rail systems, but aluminum has excellent thermal transfer properties. You would have good thermal transfer with a cool spot for the hand, best of both worlds. The only other way to improve are to increase mass (bad) or increase surface area. Plus having this type of arrangement would help vent air through the rail a bit better.
If the entire rail is polymer, then you are on the same page as exsisting handgaurds, or slightly less as the barrel nut and delta ring are covered by a non-conducting material. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:53:07 PM EDT
[#14]
That was my line of thinking as well. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 5:02:16 PM EDT
[#15]
From what I understand, rail systems that get rid of the delta ring (use their own barrel nut) which would include the KAC FF RAS, DD, LT, etc dissipate heat better than systems that just used the delta ring assembly. The other possible issue with this new ARMS rail is that their rails do not follow the M1913 Picatinny spec. This means that you will not be able to fit a Tango Down VG like you can on the KAC, DD, LT, TROY, etc. Another issue with the ARMS SIR is that it has quite a bit of flex in it. What saves it is the rail running over top of the receiver. Since this new rail system just attaches to the barrel nut, it might has some flexing issues. This of course would only be a concern if you were mounting a Laser or Optic on it. I look forward to looking at Shot and if they are a quality piece of kit, I will stock them. If they are an overpriced TROY MRF-C with flex issues, I will not. C4 |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 5:41:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Handguards are not made from polymer. The Arms lower rail is polymer and becomes soft after prolonged exposer to high heat.
I can see troops ditching the new Sir after a couple years. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 5:51:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Is that the only complication? For the life of me I can't see why people place so much importance to one piece of kit. A piece of kit that can be filed and hand fit. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 5:56:52 PM EDT
[#18]
I also mentioned some possible flexing issues, but won't know that till I mount some up. I agree with you that it isn't that big a deal to file something to make it fit the ARMS rail, but just keep in mind that you don't have to do that with other companie rails. I have not seen a price on these yet. If they are inline with the TROY MRF series then it could be winner. If not, then that would be another negative IMHO. C4 |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 6:03:31 PM EDT
[#19]
If I'm overall happy with a product that cost me a couple of bills, a little filing on a $60 part wouldn't bother me in the least. Then again, maybe I'm in the minority. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 6:08:29 PM EDT
[#20]
You very well might be in the minority as most folks can't stand when their kit gets dirty, let alone file something. C4 P.S. I am too, a pirate born 200 hundred years too late!
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Posted: 2/6/2006 6:34:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Polymer is a very generic term, just like metal. Handguards are made of polymer, even the glass filled ones are to a degree. Kevlar, rubber, nylon-6,6 and polycarbonate are all polymers. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 7:04:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Y'all know why ARMS SIR rails aren't spec? Aren't their other scope mounts and risers spec? Didn't Mr. Swan invent/finalize the Pic rail?
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Posted: 2/6/2006 9:36:29 PM EDT
[#23]
I like the ARMS SIR System, TROY, Daniel Defense, PRI, LaRue and I'm sure there may be more. In my opinion it comes down to a personal preference. If you like they way it looks, it meets your needs, and you happy with it in my opinion that’s what matters.
Enjoy you life and keep shooting! Mike @ CSGW www.csgunworks.com [email protected] Here’s some testimonials about CS GunWorks for AR15 Board What do YOU have to say about CS GunWorks |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:05:26 PM EDT
[#24]
I don't think you are paying attention. On the first page of this thread, mrcr0603 posted a pic of a TD grip on an ARMS SIR.  A PROPERLY mounted SIR does not have any more flex than a Troy rail will. And your someone "in the know" should know that Crane ordered 90K of these things! It is no secret to anyone on AR15.com for more than a month that you hate ARMS and all of their products. So, no one will be surprised when you come back from SHOT and say you hate it.  |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:08:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Mike, I will be very happy to hear your opinions on this new rail after you get a chance to see it. Please do not forget to post a few thoughts in this thread after you have had a chance to form an opinion. Rob |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:53:24 PM EDT
[#26]
If CRANE bought 90K of them, then that should be a large enough sample to see if there are going to be any problems with them, but I'd hope they already tested them extensively. As for the whole polymer handguard issue, if they are crappy, but the new SIR is otherwise good, couldn't ARMS at least offer an upgrade to aluminum? I'd also like to know how MI, GG&G, Troy, and Samson aren't in violation of ARMS' patent on mounts that use the barrel nut. I don't really have anything against ARMS, but I do think some of their products need updating, and the new SIR looks to be a good start. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 3:59:50 AM EDT
[#27]
Actually it is the other way around. You CAN mount a TD onto a SIR rail. To do it, two things would have to happened. They filed it or they have the old TD SIR replacement rail. 90K number is not accurate either. Show me a purchase number and I will believe it then. Truth be told, the rumor is that KAC and DD got the lions share of the cotnract!  I hate no one or any company. I stock many ARMS product and was most likely selling ARMS gear before you had ever heard of them. The difference between you and I is that I don't take whatever Dick Swan pushes my way and praise it as the best thing since slice bread.I will go to Shot and look at it. I won't however make any kind of judegment on it until I have actually had time to mount one on a weapon. You on the other hand have most likely already ordered them and are telling everyone that they are great (even though you have never handled one). C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:03:29 AM EDT
[#28]
Don't believe that Crane has filled a purchase order for 90K of them. Many of the ARMS products DO need updating. They also need a price adjusting as they offer nothing that other companies do for more money.The issue with how these system lock onto the rail is a tricky one and what is even more interesting is who controls the rights to it. Currently, TROY and Samson are in court to figure this one out. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:11:54 AM EDT
[#29]
True, you save that for Mark LaRue. Let's see, we've got a new ARMS product that grantie hasn't even seen yet and it's trash. The obvious bias continues...
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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:43:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Man, I hate to tell you, but I think most people will agree that LaRue's stuff is better built, all biases aside. As I've said before, I don't hate ARMS, and I have several mounts/sights from them, but their LaRue counterparts seem a generation ahead in design (and probably rightly so, since many of the ARMS parts have been out longer and they have an older design). I think competition is a good thing in this industry, and more power to ARMS if they can develop a more competitive product. IMHO, as we stand today, LaRue has the upper hand in quality control and in designing and selling a better part. YMMV |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:21:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Nice try, but your wrong. Before I post any new product for LT, I have it in hand and have used it. Show me where I trashed this new ARMS product??? What I DID say is that if it is priced fairly and doesn't have any flex issues (as the SIR is known to have) then they most likely have winner on their hands. I will also stock them if I believe it to be a quality product. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:24:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Agree. The more quality products we have in the market place, the better it is for us shooters. For MANY years we really only had two options (KAC and ARMS). We now have a lot of options (most of which are cheaper) and things are much better IMHO. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:57:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Grant, does this mean you'll be at the ARMS suite for the after-hours Shot-Show party? 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 7:39:46 AM EDT
[#34]
LOL, you betcha! If you will be there, shoot me an IM so we can meet up.C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 8:13:08 AM EDT
[#35]
I'll be there! Heck, I even have an official invite! 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 8:21:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Crane ordered 90k of these things or they retained the option to order 90k of these things? There is a substantial difference between the two and I'd be surprised if there was a 90k order from Crane and this is the first we've heard of it here. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:16:03 AM EDT
[#37]
You might want to re-think that statement. I know my Troy MRF-R has tabs to ensure alignment/prevent rotation. That was one of the things I asked about when Troy was starting to build these originally.
So they use plastic for the lower rail so our VFG's can flex, yet they can't get the weight below that of the Sampon (which is a lightened Troy)? Even the Troy is only 0.4oz heavier yet gives us the stronger/non-flexing aluminum lower rail. I'm also thinking if you add the 4 rails you're going to have a SIR that weighs more than the Troy! I don't mind the use of plastics - but jeez let's get the weight down a bit more if you're going to go that route. I'm disappointed. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:19:10 AM EDT
[#38]
I have spoken to DD about this some time ago. Crane awarded a contract to 3 companies (KAC/DD/ARMS) for 90K worth of rails. No one company will get all 90K. What they will actually do is let the individual units pick the rail they want and order it. One of the thoughts behind doing "blanket" awards is that it keeps companies from suing the Govt. because they lost (which does happen). I guess the Govt. got tired of having to defend itself in court for the decisions they make. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:51:02 AM EDT
[#39]
The tabs on the MRF and MRFS are not alignment tabs. They are only there to provent rotation. The tabs on those systems are on either side of the magwell. Scott Samson designed them for anti-rotation purposes only. If you look at the tabs on the MRFS/MRF, they do not actually touch the magwell and therefore do not assist in alignment at all. The tabs on the SIR run along the upper receiver, under the flat top rail. They are flat against the receiver. You can see them really well in the poster that Ned hosted. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:21:07 AM EDT
[#40]
This is just ONE side of the story and is the reason Samson is being sued. The anti-rotation tabs were designed by Brett W. of TROY Industries and is part of their patent. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:35:41 AM EDT
[#41]
Magwell would indicate Lower Receiver. All the one's I've seen (including mine) are on the upper receiver. Edited to add photo: 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 1:52:08 PM EDT
[#43]
uh oh...
 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 1:52:11 PM EDT
[#44]
I don't know if Grant is an "authorized dealer" or not, but I will say my one and only ARMS product is from him. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 1:57:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Me too. 
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Posted: 2/7/2006 2:07:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Typical arfcom Bullshit anymore
 New product = 1/2 page of replies and the rest of it is pissing,moaning and poo flinging. What a fucking crock
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Posted: 2/7/2006 2:37:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
The government does not issue contracts to any manufacturer until operational testing(OT) and validation is complete. The products from ARMS, KAC and DD all had to go through extensive tests before they could get a contract. Period. This is correct. All units went through the test and passed. I do DT/OT testing for the USAF so am well aware of how the process works. The MDNS program has been going on for over three years. Everyone knows that the SIR systems are in combat and have been during that time. Obviously the SIR is working well because ARMS now has a contract for up to 90,000 units. ARMS DID NOT win the contract alone. The Govt. has mostly requested between 6-300 units for further testing. Individual units can then pick from the 3 companies which ones they want. The naysayers are those who do not sell SIR systems. Thats why the attacks continue on an aftermarket website like ar15.com. I do not sell the ARMS SIR as I do not care for it and only sell gear that I am a fan of. If you like, I can go down the list of its issues. I however do not critisize folks that like them (to each their own). It is also my understanding from different ARMS distributors and dealers that C4Grant is not an authorized ARMS dealer. It's too bad that somebody with such sour grapes has to attack a company thats been in the business for so many years just because they're not the government supplier. How would you know that? I have ARMS dealer invoices in my hand. I also buy ARMS products from an authorized Distributor. So am I still not an ARMS authorized dealer? Are you aware that a good many ARMS "dealers" have NEVER EVER even bought direct from ARMS?? For the record, I stock and sell ARMS BUIS. These are the only items that I believe are quality and fairly priced. C4 is a master at manipulating facts to suit his agenda. Everyone knows the SIR runs cooler than anything else on the market and can take plenty of abuse. This is not the first time I have observed this happening from C4 and I and others wish he would just shut up with his nonsense. What agenda do I have. I have stated that if this rail is priced fairly and doesn't have serious flex issues that I will stock it. I also know of plenty of members on this board (especially KevinB) that have all kinds of issues with the ARMS SIR. This is why many have sold them and moved onto another rail platform. Last time I checked, this is an open forum. The purpose of it is to discuss the good and bad about something. Would you only like to hear one side of an argument?? I sure as hell wouldn't as I just might learn something I didn't know! A lot of the info you are selling sounds like Dick S. wrote it for you. You do know that 3rdtk (Dick S) was banned from this web site right??? They didn't ban him for hiding behind a fake scree name though. They banned him for all the BS he was spewing. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 2:44:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Same goes for you two ladies as well. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 2:50:24 PM EDT
[#49]
How can that be?? If I am not an "authorized" dealer how could I have any ARMS products????  For folks that don't know, most companies (EOTech, Trijicon, ARMS, PRI, DD, TROY, Tango Down, etc) have distributors. Dealers do NOT have to go direct to the manufacturer to buy authentic products or be an "authorized dealer" to sell. C4 |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 3:03:00 PM EDT
[#50]
I wonder how many guys you would insult face to face.  Few, I would bet...
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