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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:16:35 AM EDT
[#1]
Gov't entities sell stuff off all the time. Remember that police departments are included in that and they definitely sell stuff. There are legitimate channels for this stuff.
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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:51:25 AM EDT
[#2]
For a long time I attempted to fight the good fight and warn folks about this. Responses were pretty much 50/50 divided between folks that said thanks, and the other half that think that they have a right to a stolen BUIS, Aimpoint, Body Armor or whatever. Good luck, but prepare for taking some heat from "The other half"
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Posted: 1/21/2006 5:21:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Luke, I could have sworn I heard some chior music in the background as you were preaching.... I mean talking.
 Jeez.We should be so lucky that this is the only thing out there. Must be nice to be perfect. And no, I don't have that BUIS.... anymore. I got to feeling all guilty about it and all. And that they were going to be coming for me over of course. And no I'm not advocating stealing from the Gub. Things leak out, shit happens. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 7:27:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Yep- theres a pretty good number of things that appear on the EE from time to time that come from places that only sell to .mil or via govt. contract.
I'm pretty non-judgmental re: people buying these things off the EE or Ebay but the funny thing to me is how many people try to invent some rationalization/idea of how they might have gotten into their hands... "Insight sells PEQ-2s to PDs that can resell them..." "Pointblank used to sell SAPI plates commercially.." "KAC sold those rail cover packs that were then DRMO'd" ..all true.. but why is it people can't admit that the $175 Aimpoint Comp/M they bought on the internet from [email protected] probably "fell off the truck" somewhere? 
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Posted: 1/21/2006 7:47:01 AM EDT
[#5]
That doesn't mean that they are stolen. You would need to check DRMO to make sure no sights have legally entered the market that way. However, I'd be surprised if those were being sold at DRMO so it probably suggests that they are not entering the market legally.
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:01:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Interesting.
Bartholomew- What should the monkeys of all nations do once they unite? |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 9:50:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Report to me for instructions as part of my global monkey army.... 
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Posted: 1/21/2006 1:44:08 PM EDT
[#8]
I just find it funny when a guy with a Username that pretty much spells out his Military job turns and sells a half dozen in the wrap BUIS and then gets pissed when some one calls him on it.
Don't anyone for a second be fooled into thinking that with the advent of EBAY and other EE type forums and the current conflicts generating a wealth of material from COTS and other programs that it's not hard for Snuffies to pick up a few things that "fell off the truck" and go for some quick cash. I mean after all, who's it hurting..just a few trinkets from Uncle Sam...he's got deep pockets....Don't he....  I've been on this sight for a few years, I've seen some pretty questionable sales of PAC 4's and M68's(Complete in Military packaging with issued TM manuals) etc.. from sellers who were known to be in the Military...leavenworths full of them..... Like all wars, waste is a huge issue, waste and gear bought and paid for by us not getting to the guys who need it. I'm sure their is some unit out their that were told no on BUIS's or M68's or PEQ-2's ,etc cause their not available or theirs a "shortage" in the system...... EBAY and other EE's out in cyberspace are the ultimate pipeline to sell stolen property in the 21st century with minimal odds of getting pinched. I might have been born at night, but it was not last night..... |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 2:43:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Perhaps you should line your hat with tinfoil... |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 6:42:35 PM EDT
[#10]
if you Naive enough to believe that Stolen Military issue gear is not sold on a daily basis on the web......... But then you may be in the group that see's no problem with that..... |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 6:47:22 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that without definitive proof we can't assume everything is stolen. Could it be that there are actually units that don't like these sights and sold them to finance something else? "I'm not paranoid. They really are after me." BTW, I've got some leftover gear from my time in service. Perhaps I should send it to a troop who is doing without. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 6:56:00 PM EDT
[#12]
When I ETS’d in 1992 I got to keep my basic issue of 30rd magazines. Since I didn’t have an AR at the time I gave them to my brother-in-law. Stupid move....... 
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Posted: 1/21/2006 7:25:26 PM EDT
[#13]
When my National Guard unit got back from Iraq, they let everyone keep the Surefires, foregrips, and BUISs.
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Posted: 1/21/2006 7:47:11 PM EDT
[#14]
The horror... |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 7:55:57 PM EDT
[#15]
tag
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:04:28 PM EDT
[#16]
. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:12:03 PM EDT
[#17]
So my CompM is stolen? There was a 45-48 lot of them purchased off of Ebay as sort of a group buy here last September or October. They were in unmarked white boxes with the gooseneck mount, ARD Killflash, QRP, spacer, batteries, screws, and the military version of the M68 manual...
At $194 complete with shipping, they were a steal but I didn't think that much of "a steal" whoops  |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:14:43 PM EDT
[#18]
I (a poster in the referenced thread) was told by a vendor at Gunstock 03 that they had LEGALLY obtained a number of Matech BUISs. He said that the military was not happy about it, but that there was nothing they could do.
Thats all I know of the matter. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:33:25 PM EDT
[#19]
That vendor is lying. I repeat, there was NO SALES TO ANYONE OTHER THAN UNCLE SAM. No LEO sale, no Civvie sales, ONLY MIL CONTRACTS. So NONE of them are legally allowed in civvie hands. If someone came back from Iraq with one and they were told that could keep it, it's still "technically" illegal unless it was someone who has the power to signoff of equip. releases. Again, I'm not making a judgement about it, just putting out what Matech told me directly. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 8:59:22 PM EDT
[#20]
No one EVER said that they bought them from Matech. For all you know, Matech shipped some out as Beta units for use in the industry. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION TO ACCUSE ANYONE OF A CRIME. Substandard BUIS anyway, IMHO. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 12:49:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Listen, you got your info from some guy who started a thread who heard from a vendor at Gunstock '03. I'm getting my information directly from Matech in 2006. Not some 2nd or 3rd hand party. Matech specifically said no one, outside of the military was supposed to have them. PERIOD. I was told that not ONE SINGLE UNIT was sold/released/given to any commercial entity. EVERY SINGLE ONE goes through their mil contract. People can make up their own reasons why it's not illegal, I'm just telling you what the company that manufactures and sells them told me. Now if there is a body within the military that is selling these to civvies LEGALLY, I'd like to know about it...but I have a feeling no one will be coming forth with that information because if that was the case, you'd be able to buy them from a source (or sources) on a regular basis. Ever notice they only show up here and there and in small quantities. That doesn't sound support the legal outlet theory IMO. Even if your theory of "beta" units that were given/sold to "the industry", I doubt "NEW" ones would be still popping up constantly YEARS later. You want to find out FIRST hand info, not "some guy" from a gun show info then why not call Matech yourself at 410-548-1627and ask for Tom Crawford who handles Defense and Government "stuff". Don't bother asking for any commercial sales because the answer is NO. And honestly, I really could give a flying fuck if people are buying/selling these on eRape, the EE or wherever. I just thought people might want the final answer from the company itself so they can act accordingly. As for the merits of the Matech BUIS's vs. other BUIS's, that's for a whole 'nother thread... |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 5:43:44 AM EDT
[#22]
I think it's important to clarify exactly what you're telling us. Matech told you that they only sold the sights to fulfill military orders. Well, that's as far as it goes with them. Anything more than that is speculation on their part as they have no way of knowing if the sights were released through legitimate channels or not. We have three possibilities here: 1. They are stolen. 2. They are being sold off by individual units. 3. They are surplus being released through legitimate channels. Until you know the military's position on the matter, you only have one piece of the pie. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 7:46:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Originally from Bradd_D
I agree about the proof part...that's why I don't bust on them, just my gut instict telling me, kinda like the Guy selling Pac4's and M68s who was a full time supply guy last year. after a few guys gave him some grief he dissappeared. (had a cute story about how he "lost " lost the PAC4 he had just sold to some poster on the froof of a car) Kinda like the Full time Marine Supply guy out on the Left coast a year os so who was convicted of selling Interceptor vests. If you don't think it's happening on a regualr basis then you truly are naive or just don't want to believe it when your scoring some unbelievable sweet piece of kit at an incredible price when everyone else is selling it at 2 to 3 times the price. ( you know, the whole.."if it's to good to be true" thing) I'm not talking about some Class lX expendable beat up gear that has been Dermo'd or a few beat up SureFires or M16 mags., I'm talking new in the wrap gear bought and paid for by Taxpayers to go to our Troops. I can tell you that a lot of guys in my old unit went and came back from the sandbox and did not have BUIS or M68's or Surefires lights issued to them. And how soon we forget that in the early stages of the war, not everyone was issued an interceptor but still had the PASGT vests, yet these were sold on EBAY like Hot cakes.... Anybody who ever served and went with out something should be pissed when you see shit like that... You should be too. originally from JosephR
If your story is true, did you not ever wonder why you got such a good deal??? The Internet makes us all anonymous, nameless, faceless individuals and gives us the ability to do and say things we would never do in person. How many would buy a PAC 4 for $500 NIW if we had to drive to the worst part of a big city and meet a total stranger face to face and pay him cash while he pulls it out of the trunk of his car???? Think about that next time you hit your "send " button on your PayPal account to buy a NIW $195 M68. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 7:58:31 AM EDT
[#24]
For what it's worth, weapons and weapons parts can only be DRMOed to other government agencies. If those agencies do pick them up, it is illegal for them to resell them.
I remember a while back when a CWO who did RFI supply was selling PEQs, PAQs, M68s and RCOs all of course below the US Gov cost and of course claimed they were all legitimate because he was a class III dealer. However he some what disappeared (Stop selling) when CID was called. I guess they really didn't buy his story. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 8:02:26 AM EDT
[#25]
By the way the cost for the Gov for a M68 is around 220-230 dollars. Even doing impac/contract bid purchases for BN plus worth of them (like a 1000 plus), Aimpoint won't go below that price.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:04:46 AM EDT
[#26]
There is one for sale right now on e-bay, I can't tell if it is military issue or not, but seller says it is, and NIB, but has a one year factory warranty..... bid is up to: 295.02
Is this the same site your talking about??? Stolen??? Here is the shortcut - http://cgi.ebay.com/NIB-AIMPOINT-M2-M68-REFLEX-SIGHT-WITH-MOUNTS-EXTRASL-K_W0QQitemZ7212915802QQcategoryZ66827QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ReconJack |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:09:31 AM EDT
[#27]
 Jan 06 
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:42:53 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 1/22/2006 11:40:04 AM EDT
[#29]
well, that's the exact packaging, different optic and covers though. We got CompMs with the standard flip ups.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 11:41:03 AM EDT
[#30]
If they wanted to, they could sell them to someone else. If someone got enterprising, he could buy them from the rest of the lot of guys, then have 160 he could sell on the EE if he wanted to, AND IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY LEGAL! |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 1:02:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Technical no, a company commander doesn't have the authority to write anything off. In the long run there is very little auditing going on so in most cases the items will just be lost to the system. So the item does technically belong to the Government and can be considered stolen government property. The command being lazy, doesn't equate to it is no longer US Goverment property. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 1:04:22 PM EDT
[#32]
The flip up covers went away a while back, the current M68 comes with the two rubber removable covers. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 2:10:14 PM EDT
[#33]
so the troops did get the flipups but now get the rubber one piece style? my flip ups are just like the civvy version ones...
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Posted: 1/22/2006 2:19:49 PM EDT
[#34]
STRLNs correct. How do you figure an O-3 has the ability or right to give away anything paid for by the U.S. Gov (insert Taxpayer anywhere in their ) With the amount of Reserve/Guard units being deployed and outfitted with new gear the problem is worse because the accountability is even worse on the property books (ask me how I know this) COTS and RFI is also part of the problem. Units are allowed a certain leeway on certain gear they can purchase. So some dumbass buys a bunch of crap that nobody wanted or used, then he decides "oh, you guys can just keep it") Their are units who get swamped with new RFI gear to the point that guys are not even using it or deploying with it (they already had it) and now see a chance to sell the new in the wrap stuff on EBAY. It's treated like Insurance fraud. You know..cause it's a victimless crime..nobody getting hurt..whats the big deal..".they had a ton of this shit layin around"... "They told us we could keep it".... Do you thing the GAO would really agree with the story you just posted..along with the unit ...Who's the Dumbass now.... 
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Posted: 1/22/2006 2:29:37 PM EDT
[#35]
I think it was the BC, because there were also guys from 2/218 FA who got the same deal.
But I see your point, although it is a grey area, and humbly retract my inappropriate comment above. I apologize. But since they're not serial numbered sensitive items and they very well could be field-loss items. And whether or not the O-3 or O-5 is allowed to write it off, since it did get written off then it's done. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 2:52:26 PM EDT
[#36]
A BN CO can right off items, but his scope is limited. However I can guarantee you as one who has signed for a couple of supply accounts that he cannot just right off whole lines of equipment. A BN or Rgt CO isn't authorized to say every item of one type can be kept by troops. He is mostly limited to "Sgt X, looses his compass, through report of survey (Marine Corps lost and missing gear statement), Sgt X is not culpable and will not be forced to pay for it." A perfect case in point, easiest item to allow troops to keep, clothing, takes a GO to approve for contingency clothing after a return from a deployment.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 3:11:32 PM EDT
[#37]
If you are worried don't buy one and you will be better off. It is one of the worst BUIS's on the market.
The mounting screw is weak and the sight is prone to debris jamming under the sight and limiting adjustment from 600 to 300m. The lever is also large and can catch on gear and ajust itself. I reccomend KAC 300/600 or a GG&G MAD Tritium if you want tritium. I've seen another unit outside of my own tell soldiers on their way home that Surefire lights were theirs to keep. I really don't care. If they said every issued item including NODs are yours to keep that wouldn't make up for the fact that our infantry guys are doing higher risk work than contractors making $150-$180K+ and at the same time working under stupid rules that aren't going to allow them to see victory. In my opinion when I am fighting for nothing I may as well be a mercenary. Soldiers sign up to fight for America and to win. Not to be political pawns used by the weak leadership in Washington without America's best interest at heart. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 3:40:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Not that I care, but as NCOIC of an MP detachment it would be real easy to intiate a CID inquiry into the mentioned unit commanders actions to determine if theft of government property did occur and if said officer/enlisted personnel are criminally liable.
Word to the wise, if you are going to put out that your unit CO let you keep equipment, then don't put your unit name out on the net,B Co, 2/162 IN, you never know who is reading this. We put several soldiers and a CPT in Leavenworth for stuff just like this after Desert Storm. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 7:03:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Yep, reminds me of the box of desert cammies I have. We were told NOT to turn any of them in, just to keep them. There are alos plenty of units that use their discretionary funds to buy different items. Then a year or two later, when the military actually issues the same or better item to fill the void, the units dispose of the original itmes they open purchased in the most efficient manner available: "LCpl Bentoz et al, just keep your __________." |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 7:05:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Sorry for the doubletap...dang Afghan-net!
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Posted: 1/22/2006 7:41:32 PM EDT
[#41]
The problem is that although it happens all the time, it is actually still goverment property. Like I said, lazy doesn't change the fact. Your Suppo is suppose to take the item or lot of items place them into the WOLPH data base and recieve disbo instructions. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 8:10:30 PM EDT
[#42]
STLRN, that is very true. I'm just saying that it happens. Just like plenty of gear received from DRMO is never accounted for either.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:44:31 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 1/22/2006 10:25:01 PM EDT
[#44]
"Word to the wise, if you are going to put out that your unit CO let you keep equipment, then don't put your unit name out on the net,B Co, 2/162 IN, you never know who is reading this. We put several soldiers and a CPT in Leavenworth for stuff just like this after Desert Storm."
Doesn't surprise me. For every soldier fighting the war there is a line of 5 officers, 10weak ass politicians, and 30 liberals fighting to make sure the soldier can't continue to effectively fight the war. Those are rough estimates. The point is everybody is worried about everything but getting the IMPORTANT JOB DONE and winning the war. "No offence but as NCOIC maybe you should O I don't know........... generate the paper work to have it looked into ?" Yeah why not? The Army doesn't have enough shitbags. you might as well join the ranks. |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 1:31:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Yes, but there is a difference between your unit giving you something (already a grey area) for duty use (its intended purpose) and turning around and selling it on ebay. If you dont need it, give it to someone does.. Also, stealing items from Uncle Sam does not except hurt the soldier... |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 2:24:59 AM EDT
[#46]
Oberlandarms in Germany is selling a sight called "Delta Rear Sight" for € 180.- . There are no pictures available anymore. The description says that it is the only (they forgot the KAC!) folding sight available with elevation (lever on the side) and windage adjustment. Sounds like the Matech to me … Same product, different names…
 Walli |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 2:30:04 AM EDT
[#47]
And their are plenty of American GIs in Germany........ |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 2:43:34 AM EDT
[#48]
wtf??? |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 2:51:12 AM EDT
[#49]
look at this matech for sale on ebay,he even admits taking it from uncle sam, he said it was issued to him during Operation Iraqi Freedom, what an asshat!!
cgi.ebay.com/MATECH-adjustable-BUIS-for-Picatinny-Rail-System-NEW_W0QQitemZ7213886119QQcategoryZ36258QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 4:22:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Bored, so I looked up the demill code for them.
The demill code is D, which is destruction. So if you did buy them for DRMO (which would not take them anyway, they are a expendable item), they would be bits and pieces........ |
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