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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:53:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 12:40:18 PM EDT by migrabill]
I am looking for a scope for my RRA Elite CAR A4 (AR-15). I thought I wanted a Leupold CQ/T, until I saw how horrible the eye relief is. Then I thought I wanted a MR/T or a Burris Extreme Tactical Scope. Then I saw the Trijican accupoint - not even the acog.
Keep in mind that, yeah I like to take my AR to the range and plink with the best of them- but I will use this weapon mostly for hunting. The accupoint (3x-9x magnification) has a feature where when the operator is moving the rifle , the rifle is at 1 power for easy target acquisition. Then, when the rifle is stopped, the magnification kicks in and zooms in on the target. I just picture myself seeing a herd of deer (yes it's legal to deer hunt where I live with this weapon), and trying to follow the biggest buck in the bunch. Normally it would be hard to find that guy in the scope- but this accupoint (illuminated reticle) would definaltely help.
So- even though it may not look as cool or as ballsy as a leupold or an eotech etc., I think for what I am going to use my rifle for- I am actually going to top it off with the Trijicon Accupoint 3x9x40 illuminated reticle. Am I crazy?
Now- Red or Amber...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:21:30 PM EDT

Great choice...red reticle.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 1:26:11 PM EDT
You might be crazy - but your reasoning is sound. Go see your shrink to find out the answer.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:50:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By migrabill:
... The accupoint (3x-9x magnification) has a feature where when the operator is moving the rifle , the rifle is at 1 power for easy target acquisition. Then, when the rifle is stopped, the magnification kicks in and zooms in on the target....



The scope magnification does not change from 3x to 1x (impossible when it is a 3x-9x) I believe what you're saying is the Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC) where your brain picks up with the unmagnified view (left eye - if you're a right hand shooter) and when you stop, the magnified view as see through your right eye comes in to focus. With that said, I have 2 TR21 1.25x-4x for my comp guns, the red color works better for me in bright daylight, YMMV.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:19:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:49:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:50:31 PM EDT by Onslaught]
Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I change my mind CONSTANTLY on such things, but my plan right now is to put a TR21(R?) and SPR mount on my 16" RRA flat-top.


Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Originally Posted By migrabill:
... The accupoint (3x-9x magnification) has a feature where when the operator is moving the rifle , the rifle is at 1 power for easy target acquisition. Then, when the rifle is stopped, the magnification kicks in and zooms in on the target....



The scope magnification does not change from 3x to 1x (impossible when it is a 3x-9x) I believe what you're saying is the Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC) where your brain picks up with the unmagnified view (left eye - if you're a right hand shooter) and when you stop, the magnified view as see through your right eye comes in to focus. With that said, I have 2 TR21 1.25x-4x for my comp guns, the red color works better for me in bright daylight, YMMV.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:51:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 4:57:05 AM EDT by bravo5two]

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:56:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.


I've played with the BAC on a TA31, and I must admit I really liked it and really didn't like it all at the same time... I see and understand the concept, but it kinda gave me a headache after while. I could also easily see that I was several inches off at 25 yards (not that it would matter if I was a people-shooter, which I'm not). ACOGs are incredible, and I'm not knocking them at all... They just unfortunately didn't turn out to quite work for me.

Thanks for the tip on the TR21. I plan on using a RRA 1" mount to find out where the eye relief needs to be before ordering my LT SPR or SPR-E. What I may do is cut the RRA in half and use just one ring for more flexibility in positioning the scope until I find "the spot". Then just measure, order, mount, !
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:09:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 12:21:06 PM EDT by lcsert416]
The SPR mount will NOT work, you'll need the SPR-EER at a minimum. Some find even this set up does not have enough eye relief for them, hence the reason he went with the Arms EX and seperate rings.

I am running a TR21R (thanks Grant) on a work gun. I was not a huge fan the BAC ACOGs for my application, but find the TR21R to be a whole new ballgame.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:41:49 PM EDT
I was going to go with the TR20 which is a 3x9. You guys seem to like the TR21 which is a 1.25x4. Will the BAC work as well with a 3x9? I may be taking shots that count up to 150 yards. That's why I was gonna roll with the 3x9. Whatdya think?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:54:40 PM EDT
I've been considering an Accupoint TR-20R for some of the same reasons.

Recent thread on TR-20 Accupoints
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 4:17:05 PM EDT by ALAN308]

Originally Posted By migrabill:
I was going to go with the TR20 which is a 3x9. You guys seem to like the TR21 which is a 1.25x4. Will the BAC work as well with a 3x9? I may be taking shots that count up to 150 yards. That's why I was gonna roll with the 3x9. Whatdya think?



The 4x is perfect for shots up to 150. Deer sized targets, not cigarette packs. Eye relief is important for you to consider. It will likely work for you if mounting is appropriate. Bac is dependant upon the user being able to use it. If you can use it at higher mag., you can likely use it faster at lower mag.

"Trying to follow" at those distances is where the 21 will shine. The 20 may help determining which is the best one to follow however given the time and a rest to study them at 9x. My .02 is on the TR-21.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:24:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.



+1 The Larue SPE-E mount is great, but the TR21 doesn't work well with it for NTCH shooting. Too much eye relief. I am still working with my setup to see if I can get used to it, but I think I am going back to a different mount setup for the TR21. I really do not feel like learning to shoot one gun a different way from how I shoot the rest.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:02:23 PM EDT
If I use no extra mount, and just put the accupoint on top of the picatinny rail on my RRA, which one (if either) would have correct eye relief, the TR20 or the TR21?
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:04:45 PM EDT
For an AR I'd never consider anything over a 4X...but that's just me. Provided your ranges don't exceed 300 yards....I'd opt for the TR21 as Grant said....atop a Larue mount.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:47:35 AM EDT

I was going to go with the TR20 which is a 3x9. You guys seem to like the TR21 which is a 1.25x4. Will the BAC work as well with a 3x9? I may be taking shots that count up to 150 yards. That's why I was gonna roll with the 3x9. Whatdya think?

Dude, I used the 1.25x [by accident] in one moving stage with close up & 300 yds target arrays, and didn't have any problem knocking down Larue Sniper targets [those are roughly 16" highx9" wide]. I have also shots same targets at 425 yds at 4x, no biggies=> Deer size targets will be a walk in the park at 4x.

If I use no extra mount, and just put the accupoint on top of the picatinny rail on my RRA, which one (if either) would have correct eye relief, the TR20 or the TR21?

I don't think it's going to work either, they are both have eye relief between 3 to 4.5 inches...but again, depending on your shooting style, if you're a nose-charging handle shooter like me, you're SOL without an extended mounting platform.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:44:55 PM EDT
Reviving this thread a little here.

I've opted for the 1.5-4x accupoint in red. Help me with a few questions.

1. The Trijicon website indicates that the triangle is 2-6moa, do you have to order a specific MOA?

2. I still want to do some somewhat more precise shots with it. Can I zero the POA/POI at the top of the triangle (much like the Russian chevron reticles)? I am planning on having dedicated ammo and known drop rates, so either way I'm within 2-4" of the center. Ideas or better suggestions?

3. Is there any brightness in a dusk situation, what about a front lit situation at close range? Say with a weapon light?

Choosing this because I think it will work like stated above and I want a SIMPLE range estimation device and an uncluttered view. Also, if this is anything like the ACOGs the glass will be clear and bright.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By soowah:
Reviving this thread a little here.

I've opted for the 1.5-4x accupoint in red. Help me with a few questions.

1. The Trijicon website indicates that the triangle is 2-6moa, do you have to order a specific MOA?

2. I still want to do some somewhat more precise shots with it. Can I zero the POA/POI at the top of the triangle (much like the Russian chevron reticles)? I am planning on having dedicated ammo and known drop rates, so either way I'm within 2-4" of the center. Ideas or better suggestions?

3. Is there any brightness in a dusk situation, what about a front lit situation at close range? Say with a weapon light?

Choosing this because I think it will work like stated above and I want a SIMPLE range estimation device and an uncluttered view. Also, if this is anything like the ACOGs the glass will be clear and bright.



1/Reticle size is dependant on the magnification setting. 2/Zeroing at the point of the triangle is the correct method and works very well. 3/ Dusk illumination is perfect in low light with the TR21. Worst case senario is that you'll have a bold black post reticle. This can occur when shooting from a dark area into a brightly lit area.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:29:17 AM EDT
So there is no illumination in a blackout condition? No trintium? Using the double post with a weapon light at night is the way to go?

Obviously with the Fiber Optic, it has good brightness in very bright conditions, yes? Sorry for the questions, I dont have a dealer near me to fondle one, and have not seen them at the gun shows.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:00:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By soowah:
So there is no illumination in a blackout condition? No trintium? Using the double post with a weapon light at night is the way to go?



The tritium is not bright, wouldn't be much good if it screwed up your night vision. It's intended to help see the reticle when both you and the target are in darkness. It can't compete with a weapon mounted light.
If you are in the dark (the fiber optic doesn't get much light) and the target is brightly lit, then you see the reticle black against the brightly lit target, like on a regular scope.
This will happen for example when you are shooting from a stand that has a roof, and the target is outside in sunlight.


Originally Posted By soowah:
Obviously with the Fiber Optic, it has good brightness in very bright conditions, yes?



Yes, works extremely well as long as you and the target are under similar lighting conditions (otherwise see explanation above).
Generally the reticle on mine is maybe even brighter than I usually keep the reticles of my electronic dot sights when I use them.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:37:16 PM EDT
Thanks ipschoser1 and some_finn, your answers really helped out.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:23:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rpmwfo:

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.



+1 The Larue SPE-E mount is great, but the TR21 doesn't work well with it for NTCH shooting. Too much eye relief. I am still working with my setup to see if I can get used to it, but I think I am going back to a different mount setup for the TR21. I really do not feel like learning to shoot one gun a different way from how I shoot the rest.



Sounds like Larue needs to redesign this mount if it does not work with the optic it was designed for?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:35:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By rpmwfo:

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.



+1 The Larue SPE-E mount is great, but the TR21 doesn't work well with it for NTCH shooting. Too much eye relief. I am still working with my setup to see if I can get used to it, but I think I am going back to a different mount setup for the TR21. I really do not feel like learning to shoot one gun a different way from how I shoot the rest.



Sounds like Larue needs to redesign this mount if it does not work with the optic it was designed for?



Nice thing about a rail setup (ie, ARMS 36/38) is that the optic can be positioned where YOU want it. A telestock is great on a TR21 equipped rifle too.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:37:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:
Sounds like Larue needs to redesign this mount if it does not work with the optic it was designed for?

A new mount probably wouldn't solve the problem. Even if you get NTCH at 1.25X magnification, as soon as you crank the mag up to 4X, you will have to move your head forward for proper eye relief.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:38:53 AM EDT
A-2 butstock is longer than MY telestocks. Also more stable. A better choice when using a TR-21. I want one for a dissy I am putting together. I plan to use a fire rail.
One advantage to using the telestock is that the mill spec reciever extension will accept a Vltor stock. The A-1 Vltor mounted this way can afford an extra 1" lop and may solve some ER problems where an extra inch will make it work.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:48:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALAN308:
A-2 butstock is longer than MY telestocks. Also more stable. A better choice when using a TR-21.

The length of a telestock is determined by its receiver extension. If a 6 position receiver extension is used, it will actually be slightly longer than an A2 stock, when fully extended of course. As far as stability goes, I've got M93Bs on all my ARs and they're every bit as stable as an A2 stock.

Please understand that I'm just bringing these points up so anyone that may read this thread can get the multiple perspectives on this.

I have my M93Bs preset to pos#5 which is just a hair shorter (.075" to be exact) than an A1 stock and almost a 3/4" shorter than an A2.

Every body is a little different so you have to try things out to really find out what works best for you.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 9:23:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:07:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By rpmwfo:

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.



+1 The Larue SPE-E mount is great, but the TR21 doesn't work well with it for NTCH shooting. Too much eye relief. I am still working with my setup to see if I can get used to it, but I think I am going back to a different mount setup for the TR21. I really do not feel like learning to shoot one gun a different way from how I shoot the rest.



Sounds like Larue needs to redesign this mount if it does not work with the optic it was designed for?




The mount DOES work as designed (for a specific Military customer).


C4



...a specific Military customer who doesn't shoot NTCH? Is the problem with the Accupoint in that it has too great of an eye relief variance at different magnification levels? Is it impossible to design a mount that allows NTCH shooting with this optic at all mag levels, as most seem to want?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:27:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:
...a specific Military customer who doesn't shoot NTCH? Is the problem with the Accupoint in that it has too great of an eye relief variance at different magnification levels? Is it impossible to design a mount that allows NTCH shooting with this optic at all mag levels, as most seem to want?

I would say it would extremely difficult if not impossible to design a mount that would allow NTCH at the low and high magnification setting. The difference in eye relief between 1.25X and 4X is 1.2". I don't see how you can't move your head forward a bit to obtain proper eye relief.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:49:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:33:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By sovereign:

Originally Posted By rpmwfo:

Originally Posted By bravo5two:

Yep... First time I read about the BAC, I thought the new ACOGs zoomed out when moving, zoomed in when still. Imagine my disappointment when I finally realized it was a variation of the Armson OEG

I didn't quite understand it either, until I tried with both eyes open. This concept also works for unlit reticle, however, the lit reticle will do two things 1) allows you to shoot it like the OEG on the move, and 2) helps your brain refocus on the magnified view once the movement is stopped.

I would go with the TR21 and a LT SPR-EER mount.

Just a small precaution, you might want to try it first before committing to this mount, I couldn't make it work for me, not enough distance for proper eye relief. I ended up using an ARMS 36-EX & high rings.



+1 The Larue SPE-E mount is great, but the TR21 doesn't work well with it for NTCH shooting. Too much eye relief. I am still working with my setup to see if I can get used to it, but I think I am going back to a different mount setup for the TR21. I really do not feel like learning to shoot one gun a different way from how I shoot the rest.



Sounds like Larue needs to redesign this mount if it does not work with the optic it was designed for?




The mount DOES work as designed (for a specific Military customer).


C4



...a specific Military customer who doesn't shoot NTCH? Is the problem with the Accupoint in that it has too great of an eye relief variance at different magnification levels? Is it impossible to design a mount that allows NTCH shooting with this optic at all mag levels, as most seem to want?



Before the poster said he had a problem shooting NSTCH I would have told you that it has NEVER been a problem for anyone. I would still say that the chances of anyone having an issue shooting NTCH with the TR21 & LT SPR-EER setup is slim to none.

I personally do NOT shoot NTCH and know a lot of .Mil guys that don't either. So it is NOT something that most shooters want.


C4




I would say that's an understatement, at least for me anyway. Tried it a couple of times, did not like it at all.

So this scope coupled with the LaRue SPR-EER will still provide correct eye relief with a normal cheek weld? That and hold that relief through all magnifications?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:37:04 AM EDT
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