Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 12/21/2005 9:03:48 PM EDT

I've been wanting a magnified optic for a good while now and had my heart set on a Trijicon A.C.O.G. but am now thinking about getting an Aimpoint 3x to go with my M2 aimpoint, figuring that if it doesn't work well (because of the 4 moa dot), I'll sell it buy an M3. Anyway, what do the trijicon ACOG's do that the aimpoint with the 3x can't do? What is the eye relief like on the aimpoint 3x? Any have both and know the pro's and con's of each?

Also, does anyone use the aimpoint 3x with the M2 or ML2? I've read that the dot is too big but I was thinking that turning the dot down a bit would make it usable.

thanks for any replies/suggestions.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:10:18 PM EDT
I have a TA31F and a ML3 2moa. I really see them as very different tools. But if I had to find some advantages to the ACOG offer over the Aimpoint + Magnifier?

A little more magnification (3.5 or 4x)
Lighter & smaller than Aimpoint + Magnifier
Sharply defined ranging reticle vs imprecise dot
Probably wider FOV but I don't really know the numbers.
Better light transmission (less glass in the way)
Longer-lasting power source ;) (although Aimpoint is gaining...)
Speed approaching the Aimpoint with the ability to instantly switch to magnified without flipping anything up or on -- ie the BAC feature. I don't think the Acog with BAC is a 100% substitute for the unmagnified Aimpoint though.

I like the Aimpoint and the ACOG but the Aimpoint magnifier never really appealed to me. Too much stuff on the rail I guess.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:29:51 AM EDT
I have to second what Vandal said.

I have the same set up and the two aren't really on the same playing field. You can use an ACOG for it's magnification and it's somewhat limited ability for CQB by using the BAC, but the Aimpoint itself only allows for CQB (which I personally find easier to use than the BAC).

I also like a cleaner rail thus no magnifier for me. The less parts the better.

Two tools for two different jobs.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:30:31 AM EDT
+1 for the ACOG
If you put flip up scope covers on an ACOG you benefit from being able to cover up the objective lens and shoot with out any magnification. This has been talked about on other forums and this can be done with any illuminated scope. There are currently only two options for scope covers for an ACOG.

One is to buy a Lens Cap by Progressive Machine & Tool. MSTN sells these lens caps but they are expensive.

Option two is to use Butler Creak Scope Covers the eye piece is an easy slip on. The objective lens cover takes a little work but it is not hard.

You just need a KillFlash, Butler Creak objective lens cover (I forgot the size used but if anyone is interested I can measure and post the size to use). Next you must modify the KillFlash by filing off the ears on the end of the KillFlash. Then place masking tape around the KillFlash and install the KillFlash on the scope. Take an exacto type razor knife and lightly cut the making tape tracing the shape of the ACOGs curved objective. Mark the top of the masking tape with a marker and peal off the tape. The tape is now used as a pattern to cut the Butler Creak Objective lens cover. Once you have cut it you now slide the lens cover over the end of the KillFlash install and you will have this.

nova.umuc.edu/~ct398a04/ar15/ACOG.html

Magnification when you need it and zero magnification for those times you don’t

Note: I had an Aimpoint and sold it as I think this is a better system.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:34:22 AM EDT
two different optics for different roles, decide what you plan on using the rifle for and pick the optic that best fits your wants/needs
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:57:54 AM EDT
Careful, 3X magnifiers are very addictive!



Actually this is a Photoshop one of our very talented members did on my rifle.

I really like the 3X when mounted on the Samson Flip Mount.
I have 2 ACOGs also, BAC works well for me, but it's not as fast as a plain M3. And that's the beauty of the Flip Mount, you can use the 3X when you want to. For those shooters with less than perfect vision like myself, the 3X really allows using the M3 for a precision shot out past 200 yards.



Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:01:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 11:02:00 AM EDT by Green0]
More than half the job is simple target identification, and the aimpoint 3x can do that-- I would be tempted by the 3x aimpoint.

I'm not a huge an of the tiny eye relief on the ACOG, and it obviously won't do reflex duty.

That said they are VERY tough. I would say tougher than aimpoints and weaker than EO techs.

If you get one do the samson mount-- that's the only way to go-- not that throwlever crap then you may as well have an ACOG and an EO tech in GGG accucams.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:28:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 1:13:40 PM EDT by bloodmoon]
Here is the thing with the Aimpoint magnifier and the ACOG. I own both but I utilize them in different roles. The magnifier is way way faster than the ACOG will ever be at CQB situations. The reason the magnifier is faster is because the you can adjust the brightness on the aimpoint dot so that is much easier to pick up in highstress or lowlight situations. The aimpoint will not wash out when aiming from a dark area into a bright area. The ACOG will wash out and can screw up your BAC view.

The Magnifier system is also faster than the ACOG at BAC. The magnifier excells at BAC because you can adjust the dot brightness to levels your eye will pick up in all range situations. Let me explain how it works. If you keep a good cheek weld while firing you can shoot with both eyes open while using magnification. Some people can shoot with both eyes open while using a low power scope because the eye distortion does not bother them. A lot of people can not shoot with both eyes open because the eye distortion does bother them. What the magnifier does is make its magnified view dominant because of the dot brightness. So even people who have problem shooting with magnified power will be able to shoot with both eyes open because their vision will be less distorted because of the more dominant view. What I am basically saying is that you are constantly seeing in two views at once a 1x view and a 3x view. I have not felt or noticed any difference in the speed between the magnified aimpoint and the unmagnified aimpoint alone. I orignially had a samson flip mount but sold it because it I never really needed to take off the magnifier because it is just as fast magnified as unmagnified.

The aimpoint is much much better power wise. The batteries on the M3 last 50000 hrs that is a long time. If you have two on a aimpoint larue combo you have a hundred thousand hrs of power. Yes the ACOG is always on but its H3 power runs out after 12 yrs. The Aimpoint will still be usefull long after you die.

However the Aimpoint magnifier sytem is not the best option on a weapon whose primary use will be past 250 meters. The reason the aimpoint sucks is because it does not have a BDC. Past 300 meter it is guess work on hitting a man sized target because their is no reference point to see where your shots are suppose to go.

The ACOG is king when shooting at targets 100 meters away and then quickly adjusting to targets 500 meters away. It is just to slow when shooting at targets within 100 meters.

Their is no end all be all optic that is the best all around. You have to no what you are working with and what tool is best for the job. You wouldnt use a hammer to screw in a screw, like wise you wouldnt use a carbine to drop a target 600 meters away.

My thinking on the subject is this the 14.5in barrel produces probable bullet fragmentation hits at 150 meters right were the magnifier is usefull. The 20in barrel produces probable hits at 250 to 300 meters right where an ACOG would be usefull.

Take my advice for what it is worth. I have been in the Army and have been playing with different optics since the Trijicon Reflex special forces model became available for anyone to purchase. Here are pictures of my two optics on the platforms that serve them best.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:57:07 PM EDT
How about a Docter Optic red dot on top of the ACOG?



(note: its an Optima in the pic, but same idea)
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:28:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:29:29 PM EDT by TraumaLevel1]

Originally Posted By mcantu:
How about a Docter Optic red dot on top of the ACOG?

tinypic.com/iz5f2o.jpg

(note: its an Optima in the pic, but same idea)



see here
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=261631
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:04:42 AM EDT
field of view

BDC
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:00:05 PM EDT

Thanks for all the info, Looks like I need to go search the "which ACOG" should I get threads.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:28:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Green0:
More than half the job is simple target identification, and the aimpoint 3x can do that-- I would be tempted by the 3x aimpoint.

I'm not a huge an of the tiny eye relief on the ACOG, and it obviously won't do reflex duty.

That said they are VERY tough. I would say tougher than aimpoints and weaker than EO techs.

If you get one do the samson mount-- that's the only way to go-- not that throwlever crap then you may as well have an ACOG and an EO tech in GGG accucams.



i have to somewhat dispute that claim BASED ONLY ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. i have an eotech 552 that is amazing, and can still shoot with only shards remaining (never done that with mine,but did with my buddy's) and beat mine up like crazy in iraq, and it still worked great, but it did EVENTUALLY break. on the other hand, in a-stan, we had the old ACOG TA01NSN, of which we didn't break a single one in the entire brigade, despite numerous face plants into rocks, tumbles, various types of concussions, etc. i have one of my own as a result, and am VERY pleased with it. in addition, the TA01NSN has backup iron sights on top, with a tritium dot front, ghost ring rear. the manufacturer states that it is for 30 meters or less, but could probably be used for a little more than that. just my two cents
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:37:15 AM EDT
I don't need batteries with my ACOG
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:15:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 8:37:58 PM EDT by TraumaLevel1]

Originally Posted By Frens:
I don't need batteries with my ACOG



batteries arent an issue any more because they last 50,000 hrs and are small
and easy to carry

with that in mind I have an Aimpoint and just picked up a TA31
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:21:12 PM EDT
The 50,000 hours is on the low setting, if you leave them on the day light setting (2nd down from top) will have to change batteries much faster (probably the same year even ;-).

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:54:45 PM EDT
From the Aimpoint site:

Unique features for CompM3


"New technology called ACET allows 50,000 hours of operation on one single battery (on setting 7 out of 10)
500,000 hours of use on NVD setting

Battery Life, typical 50,000 hours at setting 7 out of 10
Switch, dot brightness 10 settings – 4 NVD, 6 Daylight of which 1Extra Bright "
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:35:22 PM EDT
"ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. i have an eotech 552 that is amazing, and can still shoot with only shards remaining (never done that with mine,but did with my buddy's) and beat mine up like crazy in iraq, and it still worked great, but it did EVENTUALLY break. on the other hand, in a-stan, we had the old ACOG TA01NSN, of which we didn't break a single one in the entire brigade, despite numerous face plants into rocks, tumbles, various types of concussions, etc. i have one of my own as a result, and am VERY pleased with it. in addition, the TA01NSN has backup iron sights on top, with a tritium dot front, ghost ring rear. the manufacturer states that it is for 30 meters or less, but could probably be used for a little more than that. just my two cents"

A guy in my battalion I ran into had just come back from a deployment with a Ranger batt in Afghanistan and he mentioned that he did a faceplant on rocks the one time he was shot at there [RPG] and a rock went through the tube of his ACOG. I will give you one thing -- I believe they are 5 to 10 times as durable as aimpoints. The 3 power magnifier is cool gear-- I'ld use that with a EO tech if I had one-- and the 600meter EO that should be comming out soon would seem the one to use At least it would be night vision compatible.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:00:25 PM EDT
Bloodmoon and Edwin, how does the front sight post appear when looking through the aimpoint with and without the 3X? Designing my first build and I'm just trying to think ahead. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:47:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeS40:
Bloodmoon and Edwin, how does the front sight post appear when looking through the aimpoint with and without the 3X? Designing my first build and I'm just trying to think ahead. Thanks.




Without the 3X the view is of course identical to when the Aimpoint isn't mounted at all.
With the 3X the sight is blurred considerably, low in your FOV, and not bothersome or noticeable unless you are specifically looking for it.
Here's a photo from TalonArms that illustrates it pretty good.

Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:31:42 AM EDT
Thanks for the pic. I've never shot an AR before so I don't know what to expect as far as what it would look like without the 3X. With only the aimpoint, does the front sight present much of a hinderence? I've heard various answers. By the way, how does yards convert to meters? I dont plan on shooting much past 200 yards so I am trying to determine the best optics?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:29:06 PM EDT
In my opinion, if you want something in the CQB-Medium Range, you should consider a 1-4 scope such as the Horus vision 1-4 or the IOR-Valdada1-4 CQB or if you can afford it, ge the Schmidt and binder 1.1-4 scope. I made a mistake of purchasing a Aimpoint M3 and the magnifier and I purchased an IOR 2-12 scope and what an amazing difference. If I was smart I could have saved myself a couple of hundred dollars. The Aimpoint scope is excellent if you are using it only in an urban environment or hunting up to 100 yards. Aimpoints are built for speed and for close quarters. They are not built for precision. They have no bullet drop compensation. You aim at the chest and pull the trigger. The Trijicon is the same thing except it is great for medium ranges and ok for cqb. The problem with the Trijicon is that the BDC are dead on if you have a 20" barrel and shoot the 55 grain bullets, which is what it was callibrated for. While a scope like the Horus vision, it has diferent markings that you can use. All you have to do is zero it at 100 yards and then practice at other distances and use the christmas tree to compensate.

If you need and overall good scope which is good for CQB and good for medium range, then you would be better off with one of the scopes that I have mentioned.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:34:50 PM EDT
I think the big advantages the ACOG has over the 3X Aimpoint the fact that it's a single unit, has no batteries, and utilizes the BAC with the fiber optic reticule.

Two different animals. The ACOG is a superb general purpose optic on a combat weapon.

That said, since you're torn, have you researched the Trijicon TR21R 1.25-4X Accupoint?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:20:41 PM EDT
Thanks Paulosantos and Hokie. I'll research the ones you have mentioned. You guys didn't mention anything about the front sight post. I presume that it does not affect the view too much on 4X magnification?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:47:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeS40:
Thanks Paulosantos and Hokie. I'll research the ones you have mentioned. You guys didn't mention anything about the front sight post. I presume that it does not affect the view too much on 4X magnification?



You are welcome. At 4X, it's a modest blur. At lower magnifications it can be bothersome until (in my experience) you reach 1.5X. With the Accupoint, you'd have a black fiber optic post in the way of the front sight tower so it'd be a moot issue. YMMV.

If you have the ability to acquire a folding front sight post you'd be erradicating the issue all together. Good luck!
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:28:47 PM EDT
.

Top Top