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Posted: 12/14/2005 7:33:33 PM EDT
Any folks here familiar with the above style / type sights and have an experience with them?

Are/any worth the money?

Any particular one(s) to stay away from?

Can I trust them for Home Defense use?

I like the compactness of them but would like to know from users if they are worth outting the ca$h. It would be for carbine application close quarters.

Any HELP from those in the know would be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:42:12 PM EDT
The Docter is the real deal. I'd trust it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:47:02 PM EDT
Man this topic is getting popular:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=260430

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=258303

I have an ATN, I am also trying to track down a Docter for under $300, but no luck so far. If you have got the money, by all means go with the Docter.

Good Luck,
"Capt Richardson"
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:00:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
I have an ATN, I am also trying to track down a Docter for under $300, but no luck so far. If you have got the money, by all means go with the Docter.

Good Luck,
"Capt Richardson"



Natchez has the Docter sights for $293.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:06:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:08:03 AM EDT by armabill]
The Optima isn't made anymore. Not made that well either.

The Docter sight is a lot better and cost more too. It's the more expensive of the 3 sights.

I haven't had any experience with the JPoint but I know that it is made similar to the Optima. Whether it suffers from the same problems as the Optima, I don't know.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:34:52 AM EDT
How about Rapid Reticle and their Special Ops Compact Sight? It seems to be the same technology/type and size (price as well ) as the Docter. I was with the understanding that the Docter Sight could not be turned off. The Rapid Reticle Sight supposedly had a manual on/off/auto button to allow you to turn them off completely if so desired but I would like to confirm this.

Does anyone here know if the Docter can be turned off completely (manually)? Or is it on all the time?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:28:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:29:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:25:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 7:28:06 AM EDT by captrichardson]
Thanks for the heads up on Natchez, but as with many other items that I am looking for they are showing the Docter as out of stock or back ordered.

On another but similar note, how do you guys that have Larue Mounts like the side mount position for your miniature red dots (J-Point or Docter), versus the above the scope mount position? Am I correct in assuming that if your right eye is on the scope, that you can basically open your left eye and pick the red dot right up.

I have been using ARMS mounts with the tactical ring rail, so my ATN is mounted above my scope. I am pretty happy with that setup so far, but I also really like the reputation of the Larue Mounts and the Docter Sight so if Santa is good to me I will hopefully be getting my hands on them.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:54:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 7:56:10 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:39:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
Thanks for the heads up on Natchez, but as with many other items that I am looking for they are showing the Docter as out of stock or back ordered.

On another but similar note, how do you guys that have Larue Mounts like the side mount position for your miniature red dots (J-Point or Docter), versus the above the scope mount position? Am I correct in assuming that if your right eye is on the scope, that you can basically open your left eye and pick the red dot right up.

I have been using ARMS mounts with the tactical ring rail, so my ATN is mounted above my scope. I am pretty happy with that setup so far, but I also really like the reputation of the Larue Mounts and the Docter Sight so if Santa is good to me I will hopefully be getting my hands on them.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”



I feel that the ARMS setup put the optic to high and is more likely to get knocked off (as it doesn't have anything to protect it).

I am right eye dom. and mount the JPoint on the right side of the scope. To use it, I simply roll my cheek weld over and pic up the JPoint dot.

I don't think you would be able to shoot with your left eye and your right eye on the scope (at least I couldn't).


C4


www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/18%20SPR3.JPG




Do you carry the Docter?

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:20:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:20:40 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:11:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:16:55 AM EDT by captrichardson]
Grant,

Couple of questions based on your photos and comments:

On the protection issue,
What additional protection is being provided for the Docter with the Larue Mount in the side setup, versus being mounted above the scope on a ring rail? Is it that you feel that the side mounted position is a more protected position than the top mount position?

My only concern with the side mount and the protection factor is that when my AR goes to the deck it usually ends up falling flat onto one of the sides. Of course I believe if I mounted it as you have, the Docter would probably stick out about the same distance as my scope turret, so they both would take the hit.

On the height advantage,
Got to agree that the side mount will put the sight lower. Do you know what the difference is? Based on the photo below and my best guesstimation I am figuring about 11-13mm lower with the side mount. Does that seem about right?



On the sight picture and mounting positions,
I agree with your explanation, I was just thinking it would be easier to just open my left eye and pick up the dot, since my left eye and the sight would already basically be lined up if I raised my head slightly, of course my right eye would come off of the scope. I thought that this might be easier than having to try and move my head and right eye across the stock to pick up the dot on the right side. In reality I am sure both methods work, it would depend on what you were most comfortable with.

Thanks in advance, and many thanks for all of your previous input, you are always quick with help and an answer.

“Capt Richardson”
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:20:06 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:23:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:13:26 AM EDT
While the Docter may be the more rugged, the real winner is the one that develops a "roll cage" like the OKO sights had. Envision a Larue Improved #17 mount for rapid removal and an adapter block to go between the sight and mount. Add a protective cage made from square aluminum tube and you have a very nice combo.

Anybody want to whip up something
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:37:20 AM EDT
Southern Raider,
You got it! I really like the built in "roll bar" protection that my EOTech has, it would be great if someone could do the same for the Docter. The add on "winged" protector that is available is a move in the right direction, but I would still like to see full protection, not just the sides.


Grant,
So was your decision to go from the top ring rail mount to the side Larue mount based on:
- It would improve the protection level provided for the sight?
- It would improve the ease of acquiring a sight picture?
- Or both?

Or did you switch the mounting position from the top to the side position because you decided to go from using ARMS mounts to using the Larue mount?

I am asking because I would rather learn from the experiences of others, versus having to learn for myself the hard way. I know there may be more than one option that “works”, and in this case the top and side mount options may be both be “good” options. However if there is one that has more advantages than the other, then it would obviously benefit me and the others here to know which one is “better”.

On the left versus right, no question that I would not switch back and forth while using the scope, but I am not sure if it would make such a big difference while using the red dot sight. When I use my red dot sight I use the Bindon Aiming Concept so both eyes are open. I have done week / left sided firing drills with my EOTech and the change from picking up the sight on the right side to picking the sight up on the left side did not give me any trouble. I also just mocked up my ATN on both the left and right side of the scope, and played around with it and did not notice a big difference. Based on that limited experience I did not see a big benefit to having it on one side versus the other, so it would seem that both sides could be an option, but I think this one merits some more investigation.

Thanks again for the info,
“Capt Richardson”
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:41:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:09:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By quijanos:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
Thanks for the heads up on Natchez, but as with many other items that I am looking for they are showing the Docter as out of stock or back ordered.

On another but similar note, how do you guys that have Larue Mounts like the side mount position for your miniature red dots (J-Point or Docter), versus the above the scope mount position? Am I correct in assuming that if your right eye is on the scope, that you can basically open your left eye and pick the red dot right up.

I have been using ARMS mounts with the tactical ring rail, so my ATN is mounted above my scope. I am pretty happy with that setup so far, but I also really like the reputation of the Larue Mounts and the Docter Sight so if Santa is good to me I will hopefully be getting my hands on them.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”



I feel that the ARMS setup put the optic to high and is more likely to get knocked off (as it doesn't have anything to protect it).

I am right eye dom. and mount the JPoint on the right side of the scope. To use it, I simply roll my cheek weld over and pic up the JPoint dot.

I don't think you would be able to shoot with your left eye and your right eye on the scope (at least I couldn't).


C4


www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/18%20SPR3.JPG




Do you carry the Docter?




I sometimes stock them, but am out currently. I personally use the JPoint and love them (also like the cheaper price).


C4



Grant
How about the JPoint?, any in stock?
And I'll ask you directly.....Is this quality enough unit to use as Home Defense?
FWIW my application would be on a carbine length AR flattop cowitnessed w/ BUIS's.
q
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:17:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:28:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By quijanos:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By quijanos:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By captrichardson:
Thanks for the heads up on Natchez, but as with many other items that I am looking for they are showing the Docter as out of stock or back ordered.

On another but similar note, how do you guys that have Larue Mounts like the side mount position for your miniature red dots (J-Point or Docter), versus the above the scope mount position? Am I correct in assuming that if your right eye is on the scope, that you can basically open your left eye and pick the red dot right up.

I have been using ARMS mounts with the tactical ring rail, so my ATN is mounted above my scope. I am pretty happy with that setup so far, but I also really like the reputation of the Larue Mounts and the Docter Sight so if Santa is good to me I will hopefully be getting my hands on them.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”



I feel that the ARMS setup put the optic to high and is more likely to get knocked off (as it doesn't have anything to protect it).

I am right eye dom. and mount the JPoint on the right side of the scope. To use it, I simply roll my cheek weld over and pic up the JPoint dot.

I don't think you would be able to shoot with your left eye and your right eye on the scope (at least I couldn't).


C4


www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/18%20SPR3.JPG




Do you carry the Docter?




I sometimes stock them, but am out currently. I personally use the JPoint and love them (also like the cheaper price).


C4



Grant
How about the JPoint?, any in stock?
And I'll ask you directly.....Is this quality enough unit to use as Home Defense?
FWIW my application would be on a carbine length AR flattop cowitnessed w/ BUIS's.
q



I have the JPoint in stock. I view them as a Back up optic (sitting on a TA01NSN or on a scope). I don't think I would juse a Dr or JPoint as a primary optic on HD weapon. Stick with an EOTech or Aimpoint for that function.


C4




I really appreciate the input.....as the pricing is near the same as an Eotech, etc.
Grant
IM sent
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:22:25 PM EDT
I would probably stay away from the Dr. Optic if you ever want customer service. Their US distributer cant seem to respond to phone calls or emails. I'd go with the less durable Jpoint. They have excellent customer service.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:25:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:38:26 PM EDT
Grant,

Sorry to keep bugging you, but you have got the answers,

- Is the only mount that has the protective side wings the one that is made for the J Point? Or is there also a mount made for the Docter that has the protective wings?

- Is the only J Point mount that has the protective side wings the one that is made to go on the ACOG? or is there a mount that can be put on a Weaver/Picatinny rail that has the protective wings? Out of all of the websites that I have checked for mounts, the ACOG mount is the only one shown with the protective wings.

- Can you get the ACOG mount around the body of a 30mm scope, and get it to hold properly? From what I can tell it is made to go around a 1” tube, but I was not sure if that was actually the case or if the rings would provide enough play to fit around a 30mm tube.

- Can you mount a Docter on the JPoint Mounts without having to make any major modifications to it? I have heard of this being done, but it was not clear how much of a modification, if any, had to be made.

- Finally, is there anyway to use the Larue Mount, and a mount for the J Point or Docter that would have the protective side wings.

Sorry for all of the questions, but the websites and product info really sucks when it comes to the J Point and Docter. None of them have any real good pictures of the mounts, and they do not have any real technical details.

I realize that you are not on the J Point or Docter customer support pay roll, so I really appreciate all of the time that you have put into this.

Thanks very much,
“Capt Richardson”

PS: as soon as I get all of this figured out I will be looking for some pricing and availability info from you on whatever I finally decide on.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:04:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 8:05:46 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:20:57 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:10:07 AM EDT
I used to sell & I still use the old EPC red dot sights.
I really like them on pistols, ipsc'ish stuff.
Will these current sights hold up to the recoil
on a 1911 .45?
How much are these selling for now?
Thanks,

John

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 2:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
RP optics are vaporware (have looked at them for over a year now).

The Dr/JPoint simply go to sleep when you put the cover on. They never fully shut off (don't need to).

C4


hey grant,
the RP SOCAUTO optics aren't vaporware - my buddy picked up one at the SAR show in phoenix first week of dec when we were there - they had a booth there and had them for sale. i like it. i'm waiting till SHOT when they're supposed (we'll see) to introduce the weaver mount for it with wings, before i get one. the SOCAUTO switch has off/auto/full on (max brightness) settings. it's nice not to have to have a cover like the docter or optima to shut it off. i lost my docter cover and had to get a new one. just a bit more convenient, that's all.
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 3:17:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:14:09 AM EDT
Grant,

First, thanks again for all of your time and effort!

Second,
Based on your best expert opinion, is the sight pictured below a JPoint?



These things are poping up all over eBay and Gunbroker, and are being listed as JPoints.
Gun Broker

eBay


Based on the photos I have seen of a JPoint, this does not look like a JPoint. I could be wrong, but this almost actually looks like it might be a JPoint or Docter clone / knock-off. I believe I had caught in another post where they were selling Docter and/or JPoint knock-offs on eBay.

Thanks in advance,
"Capt Richardson"
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:33:19 AM EDT
t fl.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:44:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:51:19 AM EDT
Thought so, but thanks for the confirmation.

All of this stuff is giving a new meaning to "Clone Wars"!

You can get an Aimpoint, ACOG, Docter/JPoint, Surefire, or an ARMS clone, knock-off, replica or whatever you would like to call it. At this point about the only knock-off I have not seen is one of an EOTech, of course I am sure if given enough time and demand we will see those as well.

As some like to say "R&D" stands for "Rip Off and Duplicate", not "Research and Development".

I have caught some of the topics covering the ACOG and Aimpoint knock-offs, they are some pretty interesting and entertaining exchanges.

I don't guess any of this "cloning" should be a surprise, as with many other popular products it is only a matter of time before someone is going to come up with their copy or version to try and grab a piece of the action. I have noticed that the pricing on certain products has dropped recently, I wonder if this is in response to the cheaper knock-offs hitting the market in force.

Oh well, I guess it will be interesting to sit back and see what happens to the market place.

Thanks, Good Luck,
"Capt Richardson"
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