Technically if you own anything other than a Colt AR-15 / M-16 then you own a “Clone”.

Yeah that’s right Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River (just to name a few) are all really “Colt Clones” when you want to get down to it.

So if it is possible for Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River to make an AR-15 / M-16 “Clone” that thousands of other people are buying and using satisfactorily, is it not also possible that someone else could also make a “Clone” of a Trijicon Sight, a Leupold Scope, or an A.R.M.S. Mount that also performs satisfactorily?

The only reason that other major US Manufactures are not currently making “Clones” of these products is real simple, it is called lawsuits! Look at the lawsuits filed by Trijicon to stop other companies from producing “ACOG Clones”.

There is absolutely no technical reason that another company would not be able to produce a “Clone” that is 95%-99% percent of what the original was. Once again, does Bushmaster, DPMS, or Rock River seem to have a problem making an AR-15 / M-15 “Clone”? No, because none of these products are really that difficult to reverse engineer or produce.

When you really want get beyond the “name calling”, which by the way is real mature and professional, it really comes down to:
                1. Quality – not all products are created equal. There are 5 different companies (Guarder, G&P, Action, Maruzen, and NC Star) making “ACOG Clones”, and probably there are at least 2-3 different levels of quality within those products. Some of the replicas will perform identically to their original counterparts, and some will not. The real issue is to find out which ones are the higher quality “carbon copies”, and which ones are the poor quality “knock offs”.
                2. Support – this is probably the biggest “real difference” between an “original” and a “clone”.  Obviously the “originals” tend to come with better warranties and support than the “clones”. But once again, the level of support you will get amongst the clones varies, and it really goes back to finding out what you will or will not get with your purchase.

I am not here to try and convince anyone that they should buy one product or another. To be very honest my current collection is about 25% “Clone” and about 75% “Original”.  Sorry to say it, but I also really don’t care if anyone would like to call me a “Poser”.  In regards to my “Clones”:
                1. Some are very much worth the money, and they will perform just as well as their original counterparts. Some are junk, and are not worth the savings.  
                2. If it came down to a “life or death” situation, I would stick with the “Originals” for now because there is not enough history with the “Clones” yet to verify that they can be relied on 100%. When it comes to “range work”, there is absolutely no reason that I will not use one of the “Better Quality Clones”.
                3. At the moment I am not real happy buying clones, because for now that means my money is going to a Foreign Company. As such I am limiting my “Clone Purchases” to extreme situations where my finances will not support the purchase of an “Original”. Hopefully this will change in the near future, and I will be able to get a “Clone” from a US Supplier.

Finally, if someone comes back to this topic 2-3 years from now this whole thing will be pointless, because:
                1. By that time many of the companies producing the “originals” will have lost the legal protection that they currently have.
                2. The products will have enough “history” to show which ones are reliable and which ones are junk.
Together this will bring about the same changes with these products that happened years ago with the AR-16 / M-16, and that has happened with many other products over the years.

Just my 2 cents, call me crazy, poser, or whatever else you would like to come up with.

Sig40Fan – I can’t say for sure which “ACOG Clone” is the best, because it is not one of the “Clones” that I own. But based on what I have heard from others the one made by Guarder seems to be pretty high quality.

Sorry for my rant, but the snobbery and name calling, and most importantly misinformation, in regards to the “Clones” around here is getting pretty annoying.

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

Technically if you own anything other than a Colt AR-15 / M-16 then you own a “Clone”.

I knew that one was coming sooner or later.


Saleen

Now that we have the ACOG clone issue settled, maybe you guys can help me out with another question?

Which type of fake fruit tastes the best... wax or plastic???

IMO, its either balls to the wall, and buy a real one, or go purchase a eotech or aimpoint, just as good but half the price.

Quoted: Now that we have the ACOG clone issue settled, maybe you guys can help me out with another question? Which type of fake fruit tastes the best... wax or plastic???

Wax taste better but it sticks to your teeth very bad while the plastic is almost impossible to chew and hurts when you pass it.

Quoted: Technically if you own anything other than a Colt AR-15 / M-16 then you own a “Clone”. I knew that one was coming sooner or later. Saleen

Yeah, that's a pretty stupid statement if you ask me.  Again it shows that CptRichardson doesn't know shit.  Who was REALLY the FIRST to manufacture the AR15?  You can also look at who developed it versus who got the first contract to build them.

Having a huge contract to build them doesn't mean you are the first.  

Please someone come in and enlighten him with a history lesson.

You also seem to know a lot about all of the available airsoft toys.  I'd be surprised if you even own an AR15.  Then again, it wouldn't be hard for you to have eventually sold all of the Airsoft crap your mom has bought you over the years for enough money to buy a real AR15.

Mr. JosephR

First, I carried an M-16A1 and an M-16A2 (along with about every other small arm) during my 8 years of service in the US Army which included Operation Just Cause in Panama, Operation Desert Shield /Desert Storm in the Persian Gulf, and Operation Gothic Serpent / Restore Hope in Somalia. Where I come from that would typically earn you at least at little respect, but I guess where you come from it might not.

Second, I served as both a Unit Armorer and a Weapons Sgt which means I was qualified to both operate and maintain all Small Arms that were in service at that time. Since leaving the Military I have served as an Instructor / Consultant to both Law Enforcement and Military communities. As such I would guess that I might know just a little bit about weapons, but obviously my knowledge level is far inferior to yours.

Third, I have read “The M16/AR15 Rifle”, “Black Magic: The Ultra Accurate AR-15”, and “Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook” (just to name a few) as such I know a little bit about Eugene Stoner and Armalite and the history of the AR-15, but once again I am sure that I know next nothing when compared to your vast knowledge base.

I would respond further to your brilliant comments, but I don’t believe that attacking someone on a personnel level here is warranted, nor is it of any real benefit to anyone else here.

My final comments would be that you might want to rethink your posting here on AR-15:
1. Because I don’t believe that 4 letter words are needed or welcome
2. Because certain people would not take your very personal comments so lightly, and might decide that they warrant a “truly personal response”
3. Because as in this case, you did not respond to the topic, and did nothing to help or educate anyone about the subject matter in question.

Oh, and since you are from IN and I am from KY, feel free to drop me an email next time you are passing through Louisville and I will be happy to show you my collection of Airsoft Toys that my Mother purchased for me.  I am also sure that via some of my active duty friends that I can arrange a tour of Ft Knox or Ft Campbell if you would like to go look at the real deal!

Having said that, I will just apologize for my very ignorant and uneducated comments, and go back to playing with my Airsoft Toys!

And I guess I should also probably hold off making any additional comments until I reenlist and go back and actually learn something the second time around.

Best of Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

edited for grammar / spelling

OWNED?

Mr. JosephR,

I know sometimes that "a picture is worth a thousand words", so maybe this will help:


1986 – I am pretty sure that is an M-60 which I believe was the predecessor to the M-240, and I think that was an M-16A1 / M203 which I believe was the predecessor to the M16A2 and the M-4. Of course I could be wrong given that I don’t know $%#!, so someone please feel free to correct me.


2006 – That would be my collection of “Toys” that my mother so lovingly purchased for me. Those would also be a few of the more popular Air Soft Gaming books that I have read.

Let see 1986 to 2006, that would be about 20 years that I have been at this, and to think that after all of that I still don’t know $%#!, seems like that is a real shame and a real waste.  

Oh well I guess I will just have to keep taking my toys out the range and hope someone will not find out that I am really just an Airsoft Poser or and idiot who does not know $%#!.

Thanks again,
“Capt Richardson”

PS: I hope everyone will forgive me for my last 2 posts, but I hope you can appreciate where I am coming from.


edited to correct picture size

Quoted:

OWNED?

Yep, I'd say so; but then again JosephR's comments opened the door so I'd say he got what was coming to him. 'Course, I don't have 3700 some-odd posts, so I prolly don't know shit either

The truth is that this thread has run it's course and it's now waaaaay off topic so it should either be shut down or re-focused.

Just my .02


Saleen

CAPT RICHARDSON,

 Please allow me to offer some constructive advise. ARFCOM argument rules are different from real life. I see that you only have 107 posts. Everyone here knows that if you are a new member, or have a low post count, that you obviously have no credibility or subject matter knowledge. May I suggest that you reply with a . , a +1, or a to every post that you read. You must also agree that Colt, ACOG, Larue, and all things 1911 are sacred. A little cop bashing will also get you bonus points. So please check your real life experience at the door and come back when you learn how the internet works.

BTW, you are probably arguing with a guy who just read this months edition of GUNS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT. His cousin may even be a Navy SEAL. how could you win?

What is with you guys with low post counts bringing up the fact that you have low post counts and trying to infer that because I have more that I obviously think I know everything?  It's always the guys with low post counts that start a "who has the most or least post" war.  What gives?

I can't help that every time I ask a question, the number under my name increases.  I don't look at it as a reflection of my IQ or experience so don't assume I do.  

So, who was the first to manufacture the AR15?  

The M60 is not the predecessor to the M240.  They were both used as heavy machineguns, but the M60 was made in the US, was it not?  I believe it's still made (in fact it is, the E3 I think) and it was made to be used on vehicles as well as carried by individual troops.  As far as I know, the M240 is a little too big to be carried by troops, but more importantly, there isn't a need for it.

Captrichardson- I didn't mean to offend you or insult your mil. service.  Thanks for serving.

I usually throw the airsoft comments or comments about airsoft collections being sold for AR15s as a joke for others.  I don't expect any real AR15 enthusiasts to take offense to it.  What I do expect is perhaps kids who treat them as new toys to be offended- mainly the same kids who are buying Chinese lasers and ACOG copies just to make their AR15 look cool.  I am basically fishing with my comments and don't expect guys like you to actually be insulted.

Just an update....I've had my A(CL)OG for over a month, removed the sight many times, fired close to 800 rounds through it and it's stayed zeroed...I've dropped it, banged it against the wall, etc and it still shot great today.  I have no reason to claim this a mission ready piece of gear...but it will serve it's purpose of protecting me from (a) my neighbor, (b) squirrels, and (c) Zombies (they prefer to be called "the undead", damn liberal zombies)

:)

Flame on.

I'm not sure if this site is a joke or not...I found it quite funny to be honest. ----> www.bullyonline.org/related/cyber.htm

It looks like the G&P 4x32 ACOG TA31 is an Airsoft scope.  Red Wolf Airsoft  has the scope listed with details for $205.  I guess that's a lot for a toy.

A question for 96_Bravo Member:  Which clone do you have?  The ACOG TA01 NSN or the TA31?  I ask because I've read other posts that think Jon's TA01 NSN clone is decent.  If you have this TA31 clone then it looks like both models are more than just toys.

Have you handled a real ACOG in the past?  I'm curious as to the feel of the rubber, the weight and the clarity of the glass.  I'm sure it has weight, it feels like rubber and has clear glass but was hoping for a direct comparison.

so where does one get a ACLOG?

I'm a armchair commando, and between juggling two ARs and dreaming of buying a FS2000, I don't think it would be too big of a sin to buy a knockoff for range use and at home daydreaming until I graduate, get a real job, and blow thousands on military spec gear I will never use outside of a range.

I'm a poseur. Sue me! Go ahead! i'm not afraid!

-John Smith

First, I would like to apologize once again to everyone for my rant, and for taking this thread off of the topic.

Having said that I would add the following:
1. I have sat back for months watching a lot of the posts that have been going on in regard to the “Clones”, and I have kept my fingers off of the keyboard. When I read this last post and saw that 75% of the responses were the usual BS responses and name calling, and you could tell that the inquiring members were feed up with the exchange, then I decided that it was finally time to start typing.

2. When it comes to posting anything in regards to “Clones” on AR-15 you had better be pretty thick skinned, because the second you post you will get Flamed. I could really care less what anyone would like to say about me, however as this exchange has pointed out, if someone blasts you it forces you to respond to either establish or protect your credibility. Personally I have no problem with my experience or credibility level, however I am sure that the frequent flaming is keeping many less experienced members from posting even though they may actually have something of value to add, or they may actually learn the most from the exchanges. A hostile environment is not always a real productive environment.

3. In my opinion Post Count should have little to do with credibility. As Rock71 pointed out by simply responding to a post and typing +1 your post count will go up. In reality all that proves is that you can go to a post, hit reply, and type +1. Most of the time I can pretty much tell who has walked the walk, and who is talking a bunch of BS, based simply on the info in their response. However when I have my doubts, I don’t look at their post count, I go back through other posts and see how they have responded. If they actually have any subject matter expertise, it will become pretty evident.

4. Finally, I would hope that when people post a response that it is based on personnel experience or factual knowledge, and actually adds some value to the discussion. Unfortunately it seems that around here at times the trend is to add a bunch of worthless and baseless comments.


Finally,
1. I can appreciate the efforts of those who are trying to steer the less experienced members here away from wasting their money on cheap “Air Soft Clones” that will not perform or last on a real firearm.

2. The above being said, not all “Air Soft Clones” are created equal, and they are not all a bunch of junk that will break or fail to operate properly. If certain people will actually read some of the posts here, you will quickly learn that many of these Clones have been used on real firearms with round counts going into the thousands and they are operating as effectively as the original.

3. Hopefully with some cooperation here we can clearly identify which “Clones” are total “Worthless Junk”, and which ones might actually be a reliable and cost effective option to the original.

4. I would hope that the differences between a “Real World Warrior” and “Range Warrior” are pretty evident. That being the case, the “Clones” are currently off limits to the “Real World Warriors”, but they could be a viable option for the “Range Warriors”, which truth be known is probably 50% or more of the members posting here.

5. I am involved in using and researching the “Clones” because a number of personnel / agencies have been inquiring about the “Clones” as a possible cost effective option to outfitting training firearms. The logical line of reasoning is that, if it looks and performs identically to the real item then why not use it and save a substantial amount of money. Also, if it fails or breaks during training then no ones life is one the line. However, no one wants to save money with a “Clone” purchase, if they will ultimately loose money in the long run due to constantly replacing failed equipment. As such, my “mission” is to try and identify which, if any, of the “Clones” are accurate and reliable alternatives.

6. Like it or not “Clones” are hitting the “Firearms Market”, not just the Airsoft Market, and they are only going to get stronger in both presence and numbers. The upside for end users is that pricing will drop, possibly even with the originals due to the increased competition. The downside is that the end user will have to weed through the products to insure that they are getting a quality product and not a piece of junk.            

To get back on topic:
As I compile my research I will be happy to share what I have. My original research has been focused on Mounting Hardware and BUIS Clones, however I am also starting to look into the Red Dot and Scope Clones.

To those who do have experience with a “Clone”, please don’t hesitate to post it so that others can learn from it. Just make sure that you wear your Nomex Skin so when the flaming starts you can just ignore it!

Thanks again to everyone for bearing with me on this one,
“Capt Richardson”


edited for grammar / spelling, sorry my english and proof reading skills are pretty bad

Good.  I'll respond.  I own a clone of an Aimpoint as well as an actual CompM.  

I got my clone from Jon (The canadian in the EE selling ARMS clones and all sorts of SHIT-literally) to see how I'd like that style of sight compared to the Eotech and ACOGs I've owned.  It seemed to be worth the $75 but I didn't care for the single red Aimpoint dot.  I like the Eotech much better.  

I ended up getting a helluva deal on my brand new CompM so I bought it.  The clone doesn't compare in quality.  The dot quality doesn't even compare.  The dot seems to be 8 MOA because of it's blooming.  

I was supportive of buying clones like this and even answered as many questions as I could in Jon's EE thread.  Then the mods came in and broke up the little illegal "discussion" so I've stopped helping out.

But I'd have to say my 3700 posts do count for some experience.  I don't just hit +1 to hike up my post count.  Most of the posts are from asking questions and then asking more questions after the first are answered.  You've got to be a real ASS to think I haven't learned something in my time here.  

Now that I've had to justify myself to you I'll tell you once more:

1. You get what you pay for
2. There have been discussions about clones here longer than you think and this is NOT the place to be talking about buying Chinese replicas.  Would you go into a Union workshop and do that?
3. The Airsoft clones are for the most part just junk.  When you can get a good low power 1-4x scope for $200, you are an idiot for buying an ACOG clone just because you think it looks cool.  

Captrichardson- you say you've sat quietly watching posts knocking clones and finally had to jump in and say something.  You should have tried a little harder not to shoot your mouth off about Colt and Clones.  Colt is a firearms manufacturer and is not the first company to build or design the AR15- just contracted to build it.

I still respect your service but throwing a few AR15s on the floor next to gun magazines and books doesn't mean you know anything.  

Read those books before you start calling Colt the original.

I would love a real ACOG and would have one in a heartbeat but paying for 2 College educations and being laid off is kicking the crap out of my play money.
And I still want to play. (key word play)
Been looking at lower price COMPACT scopes and mounts that get you to about same money as a clone, and alot of them still have the usual eye releif and mounting issues(too far forward, too low,too high and ect. ) IMHO.
So an ACOG STYLE scope is an option as I believe they were or are designed for use on ARs first and formost right?
So if we could weed out the total junk and find the ones that are usable that would be great.
How about  we try this?
A(CL)OGS only not any other style(Aimpoints and so on).
Actually own it and use it!
Whose did you buy, how much and does it work?
Mounting and eye releif?
Are the adj. repeatable, does it track, what about the reticle?
That kind of thing Thanks.

These clones were NOT designed to be used on an AR15.  They were designed solely for the Airsoft community.  Those guys really get into their 'sport' and I can respect that.  This is just one more area they try to get as realistic as possible.  It sure as hell doesn't mean that will definitely work well on an AR15.  

A lot of the Chinese Airsoft stuff is made for a 20mm rail which I'm 90% sure is not the same as a Pic rail.  They will not necessarily always grab right.  That's one major concern.

Quoted: The M60 is not the predecessor to the M240.  They were both used as heavy machineguns, but the M60 was made in the US, was it not?  I believe it's still made (in fact it is, the E3 I think) and it was made to be used on vehicles as well as carried by individual troops.  As far as I know, the M240 is a little too big to be carried by troops, but more importantly, there isn't a need for it.

A little too big to be carried by troops huh?

www.fnmfg.com/products/m240fam/m240b.htm

As far as a 7.62mm machine gun goes I'd have to say the M240 did mostly replace the M60, although both are still in service.  

You are saying that since it's the machinegun that uses the 7.62x51mm that it's the replacement for the M60, which isn't true.  The M60 was carried in squads and the M249 SAW is it's current replacement as far as individual carry goes.  The M60s used as support in Helos and on vehicles etc. were replaced by a large amount of M240s.  

I just read your FN link.  You just essentially proved what I was saying- the M240 was not designed to be a troop carried gun but retains the ability to be removed from a vehicle and carried in an emergency as opposed to it being left behind.  

Quit throwing meaningless tidbits of misinformation at me please.  

The M240B is designed to be carried by individuals, not mounted to vehicles.

First let me back up for a second, I have a bad habit of assuming that people know what I know, which obviously is not always the case.

Below is a brief on Trijicon’s take on the “ACOG Clone”
TRIJICON® PURSUES LEGAL ACTION AGAINST ACOG® PATENT VIOLATION
Trijicon, Inc., the originator and sole marketer of the ACOG® riflescope (Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight) has promised to pursue legal action if necessary against New Century Science & Technology, El Monte, California (aka NcSTAR) to prevent that company from marketing a replica of Trijicon’s popular ACOG®. Trijicon served NcSTAR with a cease and desist letter during the 2005 SHOT Show in Las Vegas, where NcSTAR was offering its unauthorized replicas for sale and representing them as “an exact copy of Trijicon’s ACOG® scope”. A Trijicon representative obtained one of the NcSTAR copies during the trade show and it was confirmed by examination that it was, indeed, a virtual duplicate of the ACOG®. NcSTAR agreed to cease distribution of the ACOG® replica was instructed to advise its Chinese supplier to discontinue manufacturing the product. Trijicon will conduct periodic surveillance to ensure NcSTAR upholds its end of the cease and desist agreement.

For the whole story you can see:
www.ar15.com/content/news/story.html?id=64

Based on that brief, if you purchase an “ACOG Clone” then you are a purchasing a product which Trijicon believes should not be produced or sold, in effect you are purchasing an “Illegal ACOG Clone”. That being the case you need to realize that if you are going to purchase an ACOG Clone, then some individuals are obviously going to take issue with that.

Of course at some point Trijicon will eventually loose their legal protection as the clock runs out on their patent protection. Of course when that happens then I am sure the US market will be flooded with “Legal ACOG Clones”.

So far this is the only current legal action against a “Clone Accessory” that I am aware of.

Of course this very scenario has also played out in the US Firearms Market more times than you can count.

For those of you who are still interested in an ACOG Clone, here is what I have so far:

Action
www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=18365
www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/144/cat/52

G&P
www.uncompany.com/pageproduct.asp?subcatid=44
www.airsoft-armory.com/Catalog.aspx?CatalogType=ProductDetails&productID=GP035

Guarder / Maruzen
www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t25441.html

Major Suppliers
www.redwolfairsoft.com
www.airsoft-armory.com

eBay
stores.ebay.com/1337Tactical
Also just do a search for ACOG

Obviously due to all of the legal issues these are all Foreign sources. As they say buyer beware!

Good Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

PS: Glock 10, our knowledge base is obviously inferior, so we might as well just admit it and give up!

Sorry JosephR, the M240 (B variation) is very much in use by ground troops,  as is the SAW.  I'm not 11B, so I can't give you the load-out for an Infantry Squad, but they are deployed and carried alongside the SAW.  My unit drew several brand spanking new ones that we ultimately mounted to vehicles, but each one was issued with attached bipods, attachments to hold the 100 round belt boxes, carrying handles, and buttstocks.  They were set up for dismounted ops, and that is how the modern Infantry squad uses them.


Saleen

Quoted: What is with you guys with low post counts bringing up the fact that you have low post counts and trying to infer that because I have more that I obviously think I know everything?  It's always the guys with low post counts that start a "who has the most or least post" war.  What gives? I can't help that every time I ask a question, the number under my name increases.  I don't look at it as a reflection of my IQ or experience so don't assume I do.   So, who was the first to manufacture the AR15?   The M60 is not the predecessor to the M240.  They were both used as heavy machineguns, but the M60 was made in the US, was it not?  I believe it's still made (in fact it is, the E3 I think) and it was made to be used on vehicles as well as carried by individual troops.  As far as I know, the M240 is a little too big to be carried by troops, but more importantly, there isn't a need for it. Captrichardson- I didn't mean to offend you or insult your mil. service.  Thanks for serving. I usually throw the airsoft comments or comments about airsoft collections being sold for AR15s as a joke for others.  I don't expect any real AR15 enthusiasts to take offense to it.  What I do expect is perhaps kids who treat them as new toys to be offended- mainly the same kids who are buying Chinese lasers and ACOG copies just to make their AR15 look cool.  I am basically fishing with my comments and don't expect guys like you to actually be insulted.

Because memebers with high post counts are always saying people with low post counts either dont know anything or are trolls  many many times I have read  Why would you listen to him look at his post count, or well buddy with 32 post I can see what your experience is.  Thats why people say such things about their low post count because alot of people on this site think there post count is a sign of their knowledge

well who makes the best fake acog is all i wanna know. i dont care about m240s m60s time spent humping a ruck around. just who makes the best fake acog thanks!

I still say fake ACOGs are the GHey put your money in a real optic not a knock off of something else.  Spend 200 bucks on a Nikon3-9x40

no one is making you put one on yours. its mine gun ill do what i want to it long as im happy with it i could careless what you think.

Quoted: ... I can't help that every time I ask a question, the number under my name increases.  I don't look at it as a reflection of my IQ or experience so don't assume I do. ...

6 posts later in this same thread...

Quoted: ... But I'd have to say my 3700 posts do count for some experience. ...

So, which is it?  


(Just pickin' at you - this sort of jumped out at me. )

Wow...thought I'd chime in...I have a realatively low post count and have been humping all sorts of AR junk for 16 years, on the job...but I still can't tell you who made the very first one...

I can tell you with proper care a feeding, a just a smidgen of training you can make Haji drop...

Just my two cents, have fun everybody...

Think I'll go to eBay and get me an ACOG clone...

HardShell-  I stand behind what I said- both times!  

I don't want anyone to see the number next to my name and immediately assume I'm going to be an arrogant prick because they don't know I've done a TON of ASKING of questions.  I also ask that you do consider that with those 3700 posts I have learned a few things above and beyond what I knew when I got here.  

Is that clear or did I get long winded as usual?

oh and Jake, Shut up!

Quoted: HardShell-  I stand behind what I said- both times!   I don't want anyone to see the number next to my name and immediately assume I'm going to be an arrogant prick because they don't know I've done a TON of ASKING of questions. PRECEDED BY Quoted: Yeah, that's a pretty stupid statement if you ask me.  Again it shows that CptRichardson doesn't know shit.  Who was REALLY the FIRST to manufacture the AR15?  You can also look at who developed it versus who got the first contract to build them. Having a huge contract to build them doesn't mean you are the first.   Please someone come in and enlighten him with a history lesson. You also seem to know a lot about all of the available airsoft toys.  I'd be surprised if you even own an AR15.  Then again, it wouldn't be hard for you to have eventually sold all of the Airsoft crap your mom has bought you over the years for enough money to buy a real AR15.

If that does not constitute an arogant prick than I am not really sure what does! That being said, I am done with it, and there will be no more responses.


Back to the matter at hand, after some further research:

Action, Guarder, and Maruzen
No BUIS
Has Red Illuminated Reticle
Has 1x Magnification
Average price of the Action is $50.00, the Guarder & Maruzen average $80-$100
All 3 products are made by the same OEM

G&P
Has BUIS
Has Black Reticle, No Form of Illumination
Has 4x Magnification
Average price of $150.00,
Model Sold by Jack on eBay
This would basically be a TA01 NSN Clone

Given the above, the big differences are:
Price - Action, Guarder, and Maruzen are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the G&P
Reticles - Action, Guarder, and Maruzen are illuminated, G&P is not
Magnification - Action, Guarder, and Maruzen are 1x, and the G&P is 4x
BUIS - Action, Guarder, and Maruzen do not have any, included on the G&P

With the exception of illumination, the G&P is the closest thing to an “ACOG Clone”.

Is it worth the $150.00, you will have to decide for yourself. Personally I would probably not pay $150.00 for a 4x non-illuminated scope. For that price range I think there might be some better options out there. If you are set on the ACOG, but can’t afford the $700-$1000, then $150 may be a “bargain” that you can’t pass up.

Sorry guys but at this point I am probably done with this. Currently I can’t justify spending $150.00 just to see if this is worth it. That may change down the road, but I have other products right now that are higher on the priority list.

The best hopes for a good evaluation and more information will probably lie with 96_Bravo.

Bravo, can you please identify which model that you have, and please provide some more details?

For those of you who also missed the earlier “ACOG Clone Wars” you can find it here.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=258652&page=1

Obviously if anyone else has an “ACOG Clone” then please jump in, you will probably find that water is a little hot and hostile, but nothing you can’t survive!

Best of Luck,
“Capt Richardson”

When I said "I stand behind what I said- both times!" I was referring to the post count discussion- not the comments I made toward you.  My post clearly was in response to what Hardshell pointed out.  

I was not saying I stand behind my earlier comments about you.  I think your lack of reading comprehension and timing is going to be as much of a problem as your interest in Airsoft junk.  

I'm not saying you need to know who made the first AR to know what you are doing.  CaptRichardson brought up the silly idea that all ARs are clones of Colts and I had to argue that point.

A lot of you guys seem to want the ACOG clone because it's a low cost alternative to the ACOG.  That's a good reason but the main reason you are looking at the Chinese clones is that they look just like the ACOG.  If you really wanted a good low cost low power scope, you wouldn't be considering it.  

Spend a little more time in the optics forums here on the boards and you'll see there are plenty of ways to go besides Chinese clones if you want low power scopes.  They are popular and used by the guys around here who know what they are doing in 3-gun matches and low power competition.  

Hey Joseph why don’t you do everyone a favor and name off some of those “Great Low Power Optics”. That way the people who are actually looking for an economical low power optic, and are not actually set on the “Poser Factor” of the ACOG Clone, can consider them.

Personally most of the low power optics that I see at 3-Gun Matches (besides of course real ACOGs) are things like an Aimpoint with 3x Magnifier, IOR 1.1-4x26 CRT, Leupold Mark 4 C/QT, Nightforce 1-4x24 NXS, and US Optics SN-4. Of course those all also cost at least 3-5 times more than what an ACOG Clone would cost.

I am aware of the IOR 3 x 25, and the IOR M1/M2 all of which were mentioned earlier, and are a good alternative to an ACOG. Unfortunately they are also one of the very few low power optics that I am aware of which is anywhere close to the price of an ACOG Clone. Call me an ignorant idiot, but that might also just be why some people are considering an ACOG Clone for $150.

If anyone has what you would consider to be an effective low cost alternative to an ACOG, then by all means please post the info, that way someone who is simply looking for low cost alternative can consider it.

Thanks,
“Capt Richardson”

Quoted: If anyone has what you would consider to be an effective low cost alternative to an ACOG, then by all means please post the info, that way someone who is simply looking for low cost alternative can consider it. Thanks, “Capt Richardson”

As you wish

Warranty: Forever

www.swfa.com/pc-632-203-burris-175-5x20-fullfield-ii-rifle-scope.aspx

Do what you guys want- you know that when it comes down to it, you are buying Chinese Airsoft Clones that will NOT stand up to heavy abuse and probably won't hold zero, etc.  You are buying communist garbage and it's that simple.  

Regarding the clone wars, here are some hypothetical scenarios:

Scenario 1:
I buy a Tacpoint to put on my duty carbine, thinking I'm saving money over buying a Aimpoint.  Same thing, right?  I'm running through the woods chasing a perp and bang it on a couple of branches.  When the perp gets cornered and turns around to fight I bring up my AR and the dot's gone.  While I'm cursing at my Tacpoint and trying to flip-up my BUIS I take a bullet in the head.  My partner who spent the money for a real Aimpoint puts his dot on the perp and drops him.

Scenario 2:
I buy a Tacpoint and put it on my AR and take it to a 3-gun match.  I'm careful not to drop it taking it out off the safe, carry it in a padded case, keep it out of the puddles at the range.  It holds zero and I get two quick hits on each target, winning my class.  My wife takes the $200 I saved instead of buying an Aimpoint and buys herself something nice and I get to sleep with her.  

Scenario 3:
I buy an Aimpoint for my AR, take it to the local 3-gun match, make all the hits faster than ever and wind my class.  My wife sees the bill and I have to sleep on the couch for a week.

Scenario 4:
At the 3-gun match I slip coming up to a barricade, bang the Tacpoint, and the dot goes out.  I zero the stage and finish last.  I go home and buy an Aimpoint, cursing at the money I wasted on the cheap Tacpoint.

Scenario 5:
At the 3-gun match I bang the Tacpoint on a barricade and it goes out.  I zero the stage and finish last.  I go home and buy another Tacpoint and vow to be more careful at the next match.  Even with the second Tacpoint I've still saved enough over buying an Aimpoint to get a new holster for my pistol.

Scenario 6:
I'm an old-time iron sight guy, but I keep hearing about these new red dot scopes.  I buy an Aimpoint to try it out and decide you can't teach an old dog new tricks and sell it for a $100 loss.

Scenario 7:
I buy a Tacpoint to see what all the fuss is about with these new red-dot sights and decide I'll just stick with irons so I sell it for a $50 loss.

Scenario 8:
I buy a Tacpoint to see if the red dot sights are suitable for my duty carbine.  I run a bunch of drills and decide I need one.  So I sell the Tacpoint for a $50 loss and go out and buy an Aimpoint to put on the duty gun.

In some cases, like #1, #4, and #8 I would have been better off buying the "real thing" in the first place.  In other cases, like #2, #5, and #7 I was better off buying the clone.  Buying more quality than I needed just wasted money I could have spent on other things, without any real benefit.

Personally, I would think a fixed or low power variable Simmons ProDiamond, a Burris Short Mag or even some of the Meuller scopes would be alot more scope than some Chinese knockoff.  At least these companies are in the business of making scopes, not copies.  Most here think cheap optics are cool, for whatever reason.  History shows, in the long run, you'll probably end up regretting the cheap Chinese optic.

YMMV.

Quoted: Regarding the clone wars, here are some hypothetical scenarios: < SNIP >

Scenario 1:  I die.

Scenario 2:  The missus is happy.  

Scenario 3:  The missus is mad.

Scenario 4:  I lose a match.

Scenario 5:  I lose a match.

Scenario 6:  I lose money.

Scenario 7:  I lose money.

Scenario 8:  I lose money.


Guess which one is the only one that really concerns me?...

I buy cheap optics from time to time, for various reasons.  I will not stake my (or my loved ones') lives on them, but YMMV.

It ain't the odds, it's the stakes!

CLONE WARS

It's all covered in the "magazine."



(i thought this was too funny not to post)

This thread has turned into hilarious entertainment !!!

I don’t care who you are, that there is funny!


Not that this will tell anyone which ACOG Clone is the best, but it is related:

Sources have identified that a number of the “Clones” that are being marketed to the US via the Airsoft Retailers, are actually “Law Enforcement / Military Grade Clones”. Obviously these are the “Higher End Clones”, for example the $150-$200 ACOG Clone that actually has the 4x magnification, not the $50 ACOG Clone that has no magnification.

Research has also dug up:
A number of companies are making a “Clone”, and then tailoring it to multiple markets. Example – A company makes 3 versions of an “ACOG Clone”, a 1x version that is marketed to Airsoft, a 4x version with “mid level optics” that is marketed as Airsoft, but also knowingly going to the Civilian Firearms Market, and a 4x version with “higher level optics” that is going to the Military / Law Enforcement Markets outside of North America.

Clone manufacturers are “downgrading” their products and identifying them as “Airsoft Only, Not for use on Real Firearms” as a way of getting around import restrictions in Countries that have strict requirements on “Real Firearm Components”.

It also probably goes without saying, but many Clone Manufactures have been slightly altering or labeled their products as “Airsoft Only” in an attempt to avoid litigation.
   
Actually make some sense?

Why would a person or agency, especially outside of North America, pay “Retail Prices”, when they can purchase a “Clone” that performs almost identically for half the price or less?

Why would a Company producing “Clones” not market and sell a product to every possible market, by making simple modification to the product, to maximize profits?

One of the first sayings, that I had beat into to my head working in “The Industry” was R&D stands for Rip Off & Duplicate, not Research & Development.


Having said that:
1. If you are dumb enough at this point to try scenario #1 as posted by MikeL, then I guess selection of the fittest will come into play!
2. Taurus Model 92, DSA FAL, Kimber 1911. Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, or Rock River AR-15. Etc, etc, etc.  Can you figure out where I am going with this?
3. Buy American! (when you can)

Great thing about the Good Old USA, it is a free Country, so buy what “Floats your Boat”! Or maybe in this case what you can afford!

Who says you can’t have fun and learn something at the same time!

Good Luck,
Capt Richardson

Quoted: I don’t care who you are, that there is funny! Not that this will tell anyone which ACOG Clone is the best, but it is related: Sources have identified that a number of the “Clones” that are being marketed to the US via the Airsoft Retailers, are actually “Law Enforcement / Military Grade Clones”. Obviously these are the “Higher End Clones”, for example the $150-$200 ACOG Clone that actually has the 4x magnification, not the $50 ACOG Clone that has no magnification. Research has also dug up: A number of companies are making a “Clone”, and then tailoring it to multiple markets. Example – A company makes 3 versions of an “ACOG Clone”, a 1x version that is marketed to Airsoft, a 4x version with “mid level optics” that is marketed as Airsoft, but also knowingly going to the Civilian Firearms Market, and a 4x version with “higher level optics” that is going to the Military / Law Enforcement Markets outside of North America. Clone manufacturers are “downgrading” their products and identifying them as “Airsoft Only, Not for use on Real Firearms” as a way of getting around import restrictions in Countries that have strict requirements on “Real Firearm Components”.  real firearm components are different than optics, I would think... It also probably goes without saying, but many Clone Manufactures have been slightly altering or labeled their products as “Airsoft Only” in an attempt to avoid litigation.  If they are trying to avoid litigation, it's over copyright infringements and not liability related.  None of the scope manufacturers have any liability regarding use of their optics.  They do however have to honor each others patents.  Hell, we even observe European patents and vice versa.  It's these fucking Chinese and Asian countries that will do anything for a goddamned US dollar!     Actually make some sense? I see what you are trying to say but you are trying to create a reality that isn't there... Why would a person or agency, especially outside of North America, pay “Retail Prices”, when they can purchase a “Clone” that performs almost identically for half the price or less? Why would a Company producing “Clones” not market and sell a product to every possible market, by making simple modification to the product, to maximize profits?  These aren't clones that can be used in EVERY market.  They can/should only be used in one- toys.   One of the first sayings, that I had beat into to my head working in “The Industry” was R&D stands for Rip Off & Duplicate, not Research & Development. Having said that: 1. If you are dumb enough at this point to try scenario #1 as posted by MikeL, then I guess selection of the fittest will come into play! 2. Taurus Model 92, DSA FAL, Kimber 1911. Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, or Rock River AR-15. Etc, etc, etc.  Can you figure out where I am going with this?  I would never buy a Taurus PT92 over a 92FS.  Kimber makes a quality firearm because they did more than just copy.  Norinco just copies and they are sorta poop.  Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly and RRA all make the same EXACT AR15 that your beloved Colt does because there is no PATENT on the AR15 anymore.  There are military specificationst that any free American company can use to build their own.  YOU AND I CAN EVEN BUILD OUR OWN FROM AN 80% FORGING!!!  Trijicon and Aimpoint have patents that are being blatantly IGNORED by your CHINESE companies.   3. Buy American! (when you can)  and which of these can you NOT buy American? Great thing about the Good Old USA, it is a free Country, so buy what “Floats your Boat”! Or maybe in this case what you can afford!  Or what SINKS your boat.   Who says you can’t have fun and learn something at the same time!  you might be having fun but I'd hardly say you are learning anything.   Good Luck, Capt Richardson

I'm looking for a cheapie to put on a 22LR upper for my 10-year old to plink with...and no, I'm not going to strap-on a $400+ anything.
Any final suggestions...that haven't been discussed already?

Quoted: Personally, I would think a fixed or low power variable Simmons ProDiamond, a Burris Short Mag or even some of the Meuller scopes would be alot more scope than some Chinese knockoff.  At least these companies are in the business of making scopes, not copies.  Most here think cheap optics are cool, for whatever reason.  History shows, in the long run, you'll probably end up regretting the cheap Chinese optic. YMMV.

I am going the Simmons Pro Diamond route to see if I like low power optics,  everything to now has been open sights or high power scopes.
If I do, I think I will move up to the Leupold MRT when cash flow allows.
I am sure of a way better optic judging by my other Leupold products, but not and option right now.


And as far as the buy American thing I am finding it damn hard to find anything in lower priced optics or affordable MADE IN THE USA. Still looking though.

yep,  I've had a wal-mart red dot for 4 yrs. I've beat the shit out of it and it still won't quit.  I've used it on three rifles.  I kinda wish it would crap out so I could get a permission slip to tell my wife I need another.

I don't know if this is relevant, but looking at the mentioned price ($333) for the IOR M2 at CS, I'm tempted to buy in.

One question though: Is the rubber eye-cup type device over the eyepeice removable? I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm just hoping for a quick response.

Quoted: I don't know if this is relevant, but looking at the mentioned price ($333) for the IOR M2 at CS, I'm tempted to buy in. One question though: Is the rubber eye-cup type device over the eyepeice removable? I'm sure this has been covered before, but I'm just hoping for a quick response.

Yes it comes off. I don't use the one on my M1 -- glasses and the eye cup don't mix.