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Posted: 10/24/2005 11:22:14 PM EDT
[#1]
even though it's 1-3x
your feelings on the leup CQT ? |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:47:42 AM EDT
[#2]
I have owned and used the CQ/T. I feel it is lacking compared to the optics reviewed. The main issue with it is the reticle. Ok for speed, but not very good for precision. C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 5:40:47 AM EDT
[#3]
While we are on the subject...
How do you like the 1-4x24 NXS? |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 5:53:52 AM EDT
[#4]
I only saw the new one at the 05 SS. I look forward to it being released. C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 11:30:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Thanks for the offer C4, but unfortunately I'm no longer in VA (I have to update user info) I see you worked at NAVSECGRU. Still in the Navy? I do however have a few questions for you about the S&B: 1) I noticed that some short dots have locking dials while others dont. Are these different models or are the dials/cams removable interchangeable? 2) If they are, which dials/cams come with the scope? 3) What is the total range of adjustment in windage and elevation? Thanks again for the offer. regards Calvin |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 2:01:51 PM EDT
[#6]
I agree  
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:02:00 PM EDT
[#7]
I was a Spook and worked at NSGA Kamiseya and NSGA Northwest. I am no longer in the Navy, but do work as a DOD Contractor. There are two diff. models of the S&B short dot (GEN I and GEN II). The GEN I comes with multiple CAMS and the GEN II comes with just the M855 CAM. C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:10:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Nice setup! It looks like you have the GEN I model? C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:11:28 PM EDT
[#9]
I think it's funny... I was running a Trijicon Spectrum 1.5-5x on a 16" AR in 1993, before Short Dots or the like were even thought of....and was continually pooh-poohed by some 'experts' I had occasion to encounter.....
Good to see the rest of the world catching up to me, even if it took 12 years for them to do it. 
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:21:44 PM EDT
[#10]
I dont think a 1.5-5X has anything in common with a Short Dot.
Are there any other differences in Gen1 and Gen2 other than the cams? illumiation system reticle, weight, etc? |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 3:23:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Then you think incorrectly, broadly speaking. [/disengages] |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 4:09:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Yes, Gen I. I experimented with it on the MRP for a while and moved it to it's semi-permanent home: 
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Posted: 10/25/2005 4:12:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Not that I am aware of (differences between the two Generations). C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 4:19:06 PM EDT
[#14]
tag :)
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Posted: 10/25/2005 5:07:20 PM EDT
[#15]
What color triangle are you prefering on the accupoint? Red or Amber? I've heard mixed oppinions and reasons.
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Posted: 10/25/2005 5:37:46 PM EDT
[#16]
I like Red. C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 6:17:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Grant,
Any chance you will be able to run the Leupy 1.5X5 in any comparision like this one...i would really be interested to see how it shakes out against some of the others.................... 
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Posted: 10/25/2005 6:19:41 PM EDT
[#18]
I should be able to do that. C4 |
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Posted: 10/25/2005 6:23:40 PM EDT
[#19]
thanks looking forword to it (and I think a few others are prob. two).................
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Posted: 10/26/2005 11:31:23 AM EDT
[#20]
A 1-4 is designed to be "transparent" at minimum powr and a 1.5X does not accomplish this. The 1-4 does not accomplish this at extreme close ranges but usually its just like looking through an Aimpoint of other 1X optic from 10 feet or so on out. A 1.5X compact ACOG or 1.5X variable is not transparent or easy to use like a 1X optic. Its totally different. You have two VERY different views with your two eyes that dont integrate into a single 3 dimensional image. This is sacrificed to give you 5X on the top end instead of 4X due to the manufacturers limitations on adjustability in the 1.5-5X. A Short Dot has fully daytime usable illuminated reticle. No 1.5-5X scope allows this. 1.5X cannot be used as a red dot scope. It designed to be used more like a traditional scope. Its nothing like a Short Dot. I am not thinking incorrectly at all. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 12:42:11 PM EDT
[#21]
How much time do you have using a low power variable as a primary optic? Yer always in these threads but really what experiance do you have with them? and how much. Some of the stuff you say is right on, other stuff is just "off". ETA: DevL i'm not trying to be an ass with the above questions, just wondering where yer opinions ofn the subject come from thats all. A 1.5x is just as easy to use as a true 1. You keep comparing them to parralax free red dots when you talk about them on 1x. yer comparing apples to oranges. it's two different concepts. A 1.5x is easy to use close in. My eyes will integrate what I see into one image, and I can still see whats going on around me. I always shoot mine both eyes open even on 4x and I have no issues with it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 1:14:11 PM EDT
[#22]
I don't want to get in the middle of a sh*t slinging contest here, but for what it's worth, I think both of you are part right and part wrong. I honestly think DevL is a little overly concerned with the difference between 1.5 and 1.1 magnification. BUT he does have a very valid point. That point being that at 1.1x, it essentially "acts" like an Aimpoint, but at 1.5x it does not. I say, so what? I've been using an Aimpoint and 2.5-10x Nightforce for quite a while, so I'm not talking out of my ass here... The NF is an AWSOME scope for 50-500+ yds, and it gets the job done at 0-10 just fine, but it just flat sucks between 10 and 50. How can that be? Well, in my experience, between 0 and 10 yds or so, I shoot about 99% as fast and accurate as I do with an Aimpoint just by leaving both eyes open and kind of doing the BAC thing. I'm close enough for head-shots on the move at under 10yds. But I do NOT have a "sight picture" per se. At 50+ you just have a 2.5-10x scope. At 10-50 or so, what you have is confusion. Too limited field of view for fast use as a conventional scope, and you need more precision than the "point-shooting" half-ass BAC method. I also had a 30mm illum duplex Leupold 1.5-5 for about 6 months and it didn't suffer nearly as much from that problem.... but it was still a problem. In my case, it probably would make the difference between a 10-second run with an Aimpoint, or an 10.5-11 second run with the 1.5x, or a 12 second run with the Nightforce. It's going to slow you down a little bit, no matter how you slice it. Whether that's a price you're willing to pay to be able to crank up the magnification for farther shots is entirely a matter of personal preference. Personally, I'm selling the Nightforce on the EE and scraping up my pennies for a Short Dot. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 2:24:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Welcome to the shitstorm  But seriously even between 1.1x and 1.5x there really is no big night and day diferance, except the 1.1x is a little more "natural" looking as it's CLOSER but not exactlythe same as looking through an aimpoint type optic. But again to even compare it is a little silly becauseit can not and will not function like an aimpoint or other red dots. It's not ment to. Close to but not exactly. So when talking about the use of low power variables it's important to keep that distinction. The 2.5-10 is a great optic and magnification range for hunting and "urban sniping" but it's not all that great for fast situations like CQB environments or classes, things like that. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 2:36:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Pat Rogers and some others who were using Short Dots have said that at 1.1x it works almost exactly like an Aimpoint. Also that this isn't possible with 1.5x. I have some experience with 1.5x scopes, and they are a LOT slower than 1x scopes at short range. I have to close an eye and focus on the reticle.
I would rather lose the extra magnification on the top, for the 1.1x on the bottom. If you cant hit it with a 4x then a 5x wont help. Same can't necessarily be said for 1.1 and 1.5x. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 3:15:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Dang!
Not to unhijack this thread but... Been itching for the SN4 and finally got one in a ARFCOM group buy and here its just beat on in this thread. What's the storey with the windage knob??? what happened and why. I gots to know! |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 3:34:17 PM EDT
[#26]
+1 big time. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:04:07 PM EDT
[#27]
I ran it through a Pat Rogers class!  I was doing a mag dump and it just flew off for no reason (was never dropped and or hit). According to USO it is a known issue. The good thing is that I was still able to finish my class with it.C4 |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:16:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Grant,
Any chance you could post pics of the Accupoint on 1.25x and 4x ........... I have a friend that is VERY interested in one, and I can't find one locally to show him. Thanks, |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:17:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Sucks to be you. I gues I'm lucky I can shoot through my IOR 4-14x scope with both eyes open through the entire magnification range, and it doesn't phase me at all. Same with the 1-4 optics regardless of what the low end magnification really is. Of course part of that could come from shooting a lot of sports action stuff back in the day. I always shoot my camera that way too, with both eyes open, even with a long telephoto lens. I wonder if being able to shoot both eyes open regardless of the power setting is more the exception then the norm...  Anyone got any thoughts on that?
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:35:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Not to change the subject, but that is exactly how I feel about the TA31. Good at 0 to 12 yards. Piss poor at 12 -40 yards and good at 40 - 400 yards. After 18 months with a Ta31 I am back to a TA01 NSN/ Docter. But I'll shut up and listen to what other have to say about the low power variables. |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:41:55 PM EDT
[#31]
I will try and get you some pics tomorrow. C4 |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:42:29 PM EDT
[#32]
I shoot with both eyes open on all power settings. C4 |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:46:49 PM EDT
[#33]
I shoot both eyes open regardless of what I am doing -- I was listening to an Olympic calibre shooter and he was describing the muscle strain and the fatc that one eye shooting opens your pupil and causes you to be less precise. I have heard this from a LE buddy who is a international PPC shooter amongst other things...
However I have used variables and ACOG's and agree (as I stated before) that if you take the time to train with the systems the 1.1 setups will be faster and more accurate (less parallex shift) than eith the BAC ACOG's or a 1.5 setup. I loved my TA31 -- but in many circumstances I found it was not doing what I could do with a EOTECH in close - the only issue I noted with the Short Dot at 1.1 was moving laterally shooting weak side -- it was not as fast to use as a EOTECH. Before anyone flames me - these results have also been noted by the top Tier SF shooters from both USA and Canada |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 4:48:19 PM EDT
[#34]
What happens to the S&B Short Dot at 1x if the battery is dead? |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 5:03:12 PM EDT
[#35]
You CAN see the reticle, it just isn't all that bold (like it is on say the SN-4). If it was me and the batts went out I would most likely shift to 2X and hammer away. Remember that you can still use the diameter of the tube itself for snap shooting at CQB distances (and farther). C4 |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 5:04:58 PM EDT
[#36]
The same thing as an EO or Aimpoint , but if you turn up the magnification the reticle comes into plain view.
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Posted: 10/26/2005 5:09:26 PM EDT
[#37]
great review Grant, nice work!
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Posted: 10/26/2005 5:36:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Thank you Sir. C4 |
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Posted: 10/26/2005 5:44:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Kev thanks for the info on the the eye stuff i never knew that. it's cool. Ok I screwed this post up I missed that you said moving lateraly. So I edited it. I can't shoot well from the weak side with anything. I work on it don't get me wrong, I'm just no good at it. But why shoot from the weak side if moving latteraly, to me that says yer sqaured up to the direction of the threat. Say yer facing north and the BG is north, but yer moving west or east side. Why not just shoot strong side then? Or am I missing what you mean? If I'm moving say north and something pops up to my weak side(west) I can shoot off the strong shoulder like regular while still moving north. If I'm moving north and something pops up strong side(east) then i go "gangasta" and I can still be moving north, but engage a target on the weakside. I had a pic of it to show what I ment, but I did it strong side like a dumbass for some reason. I might be able to find one from DE class. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 6:38:21 AM EDT
[#40]
Trijicon Accupoint TR21 1.25-4x. Range is 93y according to laser. -Justin
4x  1.25x 
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Posted: 10/27/2005 9:59:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Photoman -- if your shooting weak side from cover and then have to move laterally to another building (or whatever) and have to engage while moving. I'm not going to duck back swap hands and then move across
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Posted: 10/27/2005 10:22:59 AM EDT
[#42]
Ok I didn't realise you ment while using/leaveing cover. Makes perfect sence then. I suck at weak hand shooting. And yer right using a 1-4 shooting weak hand is a bitch and a half. I'm still not used to it. Much much easier with a red dot on that side. i'm sure one day I'll be at the point where Ive done it enough that it won't be an issue, but right now I'm not close. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 3:58:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Well I am sure there IS a reason. I am very curious to find out what they say when I call them on it. We have sold a couple and we are running a demo. We have had zero malfunctions and we have not heard of any either. So far the Sn-4 has been an excelent performer for us.  TalonArms.com |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 5:55:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Well the reason I guess is that I was using it!  They said that they have seen this problem before and are redesigning it as we speak. While I LIKED the SN-4 it does not hold a candle to the S&B IMHO.C4 |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 7:09:14 PM EDT
[#45]
I have used a 1.5X ACOG for months as well as a 1.5X variable Leupold. I have tried every major optic out there other than the Short Dot at one point or another and I am saving my pennies for that. As Pat Rogers stated a 1.5X is not as fast as a 1X optic. I dont see how anyone can think differently once you look through it and try it for 5 minutes. Your eyes cannot process a 1.5X image into a 3 dimensional single image. What you are describing defies physics and biology. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 7:21:49 PM EDT
[#46]
I was just looking over the S&B website and saw, 1.1x field of view 96 ft @ 100 yards.  But at 4x field of view is 30 ft @ 100 yards.  Now if they could just match the good old Russian PO 3.5x21P and its 87 ft (if I remember exactly right) @ 100 yards. That's right, 3.5x is 87 ft at 100 yards. That's why it's my favorite scope. The only reason I don't run one on an AR is they only make them with a non-removable built-in AK side mount. They also go for around $300. I really like the S&B and see it as two steps forward. I hope Leupold copies the dot setup for future scopes too. But at $2200 it’s just way too much sugar for two short steps. I need more for so many hard earned bucks. At least that’s what’s keeping me from buying one today. That said, the S&B CQB looks like the best CQ to medium range AR scope on the market today. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 7:55:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Tag
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Posted: 10/27/2005 8:02:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Easy it just doesn't bother them. Ever do sprots photography? It's the same thing at least for me. I did it for eight years. Shoot both eyes open so you can see whats going on, to not is stupid cuz the action ain't always on the ball, but you still got to see it. My prefered lens is a 70-200 f2.8. At 70mm it's just like looking though my leupold 1-4. Only differance is what you can't see because of the camera body blocking the view. And the fact that i'm looking at three squares instead of a duplex retical. I even have the same distaste for shooting a camera left handed as I do shooting a gun left handed. Though I put much more time into getting better shooting guns left handed Now throw in people moving around and having to follow that movment. Instead of pulling a trigger i'm pressing a button. You very much get used to it. I don't think there is anything about it that defies anything. |
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Posted: 10/28/2005 3:15:38 AM EDT
[#49]
You are talking about using the eyes seperately at the same time. I am talking about using both eyes together at the same time. I think thats where the misunderstanding is coming from. I can use both eyes open on higher magnifications as well but it is not a single image I see. Its two seperate images stacked on one another or a single image, one at a time from either eye. It takes a split second for me to process from one image to the other and I cant look at two images at the same time while moving around. If its static and I try to see two images I can but once I start to move my brain takes over and I see one or the other. That is where I lose speed... transitioning views.
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Posted: 10/28/2005 7:15:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Good example of how everybody works differently! I have trouble even using an Aimpoint with 2-eyes open unless I'm moving. With Aimpoint, (or 1.1x or 1.5x or even 2.5x) I kinda get double vision if I'm static and doing the both eyes open thing - I think because neither eye is strongly dominant over the other. If I'm moving, my brain merges the two images together and I see the target with the reticle or dot on it with no problem, as long as the reticle is bold enough. The first Nightforce 2.5-10 I had was with the FC-2 reticle, and it worked pretty well for close-in "dynamic" shooting, but was no good for precise work way out yonder because the dot in the circle covered up too much of the target. NP-R2 is great for way out yonder, but might as well be nonexistent for the dynamic stuff. Short Dot here I come!!! |
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