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Posted: 12/7/2003 11:49:32 PM EDT
...the optics keeping 'zero' in extreme temps,say > 100F?

Example: the aiming pointer rising when heated, and then after cooling also loosing left and right adjustment too.

I am talking the ACOG as used by the US Army for the M16 Family of weapons.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Please email of PM me. Thanks.


Cheers,

1feral1
Sydney, Australia



Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:39:01 AM EDT
Wes -- I saw your After Action Review [privately published so lurkers shouldn't look for it] a week ago and meant to query you regarding just [i][b]which[/b][/i] "ACOG" you were referring to. Every bloody sight made by Trijicon is an "ACOG" to include their reflex, telescope, and mere illuminated iron sights. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:34:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 2:37:33 PM EDT by DevL]
Did you zero in one temp and then in the heat it was at another temp or did it just change after being heated and cooled? There is less resistance for bullets in warm air so that would make them have a higher POI through the scope if that is the case. ALso hot to cold weather can have up to a 100fps effect on particualr rounds which will change POI. If it is losing zero after being heated then cooled and fired at the same temperature I have not heard of that happening before.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 7:57:42 PM EDT
Hi Chuck, ya thought you'd like the PAR from my recent 'tour'. Good to hear from ya. As for DevL, it was truly a wierd experience as the the AGOGs 4X, as issued to the US Army(w/tritium and red aiming arrow type pointer). These were all new, and all AGOGs present were un issued, and behaving in the same manner, which has us all 'sus' that there may be some kind of problem here. The outcome was unexplainable, hence my queries. Temps were 100% humidity, and approaching 40C in the direct sunlight (>115F), so it was a bit hot. Cheers, Wes
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:26:43 PM EDT
Wes, you guys must have gotten a bad lot or something. When I was an ACOG user I always had a rifle riding around the the back of my un-airconditioned Jeep, and the temps and humidity you mention are the norm for my area 8 months of the year. The rifles were shot extensively, and I never experienced any problem. This is with the TA01, TA01NSN, 2 TA31s, TA31F, TA11, TA11A, and TA11F. The only problem I had with an ACOG was that it couldn't support the weight of a truck, and I only found that out by accident. See if you can't get in touch with Trijicon to get them replaced, because something is not right with the optics you received. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 6:06:21 AM EDT
Have a TA11 that has been used on the range in temps of 110F and has been stored in temps that reach 130F. Never noticed the reticle problem you described.
AGOGs 4X, as issued to the US Army(w/tritium and red aiming arrow type pointer)
View Quote
I believe that is the TA31F you are describing though I didn't know the Army was getting them. The Marines purchased 5000 recently and have another order in from what I've heard.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 7:07:31 AM EDT
Don't feel bad, I just bought one and the windage knob didn't work. WHo knows how long the factory will take to get to it. Who knows what other problems it will have when they're through with it...
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 4:27:43 PM EDT
Recently purchased a TA11 new and had a quality problem with it right out of the case. A small area of the donut was dark. As I moved my eye side to side the dark spot moved across the bottom of the donut. Seemed like a piece of debris inside the scope?? Trijicon has it now for repair. I researched and read a lot about the ACOG's were before buying and I really do like it. Not bad mouthing ACOG's or Trijicon. But for that kind of money I'm just not impressed with the quality - based on my own experience. I'm curious what their failure rate is?
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 6:34:27 PM EDT
The only problem I had with an ACOG was that it couldn't support the weight of a truck, and I only found that out by accident.
View Quote
Please tell me you got photos of that...
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 6:38:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 7:04:03 PM EDT
Thats a real good point
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 9:32:59 PM EDT
Troy, I hear what you're saying but we shouldn't accept increased production as an excuse for poor quality. I'm glad to hear they're good at fixing them (quickly I hope). Forgive my low tolerance. Can't help it, I'm a Quality Engineer by profession. I'm still sold on the ACOG and anxious to get mine back.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 10:24:48 PM EDT
I got one back recently, was about 1 1/2 months there. My rep was Carrie.
Originally Posted By Troy: I can tell you that demand for ACOGs has risen more than 600% in the last 18 months.
View Quote
That's all New-Arguy's fault.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 3:20:21 AM EDT
[0:)]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 3:29:38 AM EDT
I hope mine only takes one and a half months... New out of the box, one trip to the range, and I had to send it back in. Striking almost 4 feet left at 100 yds. I work in the automotive industry. We provide OEM parts to car manufacturers. One minor flaw in the paint on a $30 spoiler that you or I wouldn't see - only a computer can see it - is enough to put us on what is called "containment" which is a nice way of saying your customer is going to have their nose buried in your..."business" for 6 months. [rant] Translate that to a $900 piece of precision optics. How did QC let one slip by with a no windage adjustment? Why not sell a car with no steering wheel and say "oh, our demand is increased, send it back in, we have great customer service." [/rant] Still, I do love the ACOG - just want it to aim straight.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:37:13 AM EDT
Artifex, What a coincidence. I also work in an industry that is Tier 1 to Big 3 Automotive + Honda and Toyota. My comments about Quality stem from the exact same type of situations you describe. Working in that environment has made me more "quality critical" as a consumer. My Customer Service Rep at Trijicon was very pleasent but she told me about 6 weeks for the repair :( Their Customer Servive may be good but EXCELLENT Customer Service would get me a new scope immediately and let Trijicon deal with repair. I think a product touted as being the best should be the best, not just good. I'm still exited about the scope. Can't wait to get mine back.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 3:32:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 3:34:01 PM EDT by TNRonin]
When I went to a QC school for a job, we were told that there will always be parts that are out of spec. We just try to reduce that number. It sucks to get a part that is flawed. The instructor told us engineers of a case with TI in which a lady was inspecting boards with a large mounted magnifying glass. The board would stop in front of her for inspection. At one point they sent a board with a piece of paper on the top of it. It passed. Crap happens when you have a high volume, you just try to minimize the crap.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:24:44 PM EDT
I've shot different ACOGs from -40F to +130F for the last 5 years. The only changes in impact came from the POI change due to atmospheric conditions. Once zeroed for that temperature, the ACOG held its zero. I suspect QC has gone down due to increase in demand.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:29:01 PM EDT
100 F is extreme? Hell it hits 115 in the shade here a few times each summer. Never had a problem with the sight - the barrel heats faster and stays hotter longer. On my designated marksmen rifle that means shots end up 2 inches higher at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 6:09:20 PM EDT
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