Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 10/19/2003 8:02:07 PM EDT
Has anyone else had a problem with their ARMS 22M68 moving when it is attached to the rifle? Mine did on my Bushmaster. I tried it on several different uppers two Colts, two Bushmasters, a Rock River, and two Olympics; and it kept moving, not keeping zero. You could make the mount move if you applied pressure to it with your thumb. I thought the mount had to be out of spec.

I called ARMS and the guy I talked to said the mount should move. He said to slide it all the way forward in the slot and lock the lever. However, when I did this, the mount would slide back after firing the rifle. He gave me some bullshit about the mount was made loose so a soldier can attach the mount when it is covered in mud, snow, etc. I quickly sold the mount. Then I went to the Aimpoint QRP and no more problems. I’m not here to trash ARMS. I have their #40 BUIS and like it very much. However this is my experience with the 22M68 and is 100% true.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:04:50 PM EDT
Once again, for the record, I own TWO 22M68's and a 19S, all with ZERO movement. Did you send it back to be looked at?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:23:26 PM EDT
I would have sent it back, but the guy I talked to on the phone acted like nothing was wrong. So I decided I wasn't worth my time, money, effort to ship the mount to ARMS if they weren't going to stand behind their product.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:29:47 PM EDT
I can guarrantee that these mil spec makers are not giving you any BS about space in the notches, it has to be there to alow for mud etc. not to interfere with the cross bars that are not as wide or deep a the notch for that reason. If a buffer pad is missing that is another story and then you should let the maker know, but the info you mention they gave is correct. Going back after shooting doesn't happen, unless by chance a buffer pad is missing, then you should know that something is missing called a buffer pad. Jack
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:31:44 PM EDT
My ARMS 22M68 and 19S are rock solid. Can't move them without moving entire upper receiver.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:33:45 PM EDT
The infamous "I spend more time posting about it on the board than getting it fixed"
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:48:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 10:35:29 PM EDT by scottryan]
Well, then my mount must have been defective. The mount would move back after firing the rifle. I don't need a lecture about physics. I am a mechanical engineer and have studied more physics than 99% of the people on this board. However, this mount was so loose you could applied pressure to it with one of your fingers and it would slide around. The mount could have slid back after adjusting the aimpoint which would make it seem that the mount moved back after firing the rifle.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:01:51 PM EDT
Send it to ARMS after you first look at their web sight and see what the buffer pad looks like and if you mount has one. I can tell anyone for shure and others here will also, that ARMS stand behind their products and don't give out bad info. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:16:34 PM EDT
I couldn't find a picture showing the buffer pad.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:45:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 1:16:28 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
Just out of curiosity, if you don't have it anymore then why do you give a crap about it either way unless you have an axe to grind?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:02:50 AM EDT
I have said it before and will say it again, All ARMS mounts shift fore and aft. It is inherant to the design. Some are tighter than others. If you give your ARMS throw lever attached optic a nice whack it WILL move. Its only held in place by friction. What I have noticed is that all these mounts will loosen up with use. If your throw lever is VERY EASY to throw your mount will have less friction holding it in place. If it is VERY DIFFICULT to throw it likely has more friction holding it in place. More friction means its harder to move but it WILL move if you overcome the friction. That said a fore/aft shift on a 1913 spec rail that is that small should not have an effect on your optics POA. If it moved latterally that would be different and unacceptable. I am going to guess but from the first reading of your post you never metioned how much the POI shifted. Did you even shoot the rifle to see how much it shifted? Did you place something in to act as a shim to hold it in place better to see if it really made your groups worse if it was loose? I am willing to bet you did not. So how do you know your POI was shifting due to the mount? Does anyone know if worn out friction pads can be replaced by ARMS if we send our mounts in?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:20:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 11:36:23 AM EDT by knightsar]
scottryan, We have somthing in common I have had a few posts about the same problem. I have talked to ARMS and I just sent mine back to them for them to take a look at it. I will let every body know how it turns out. I was treated with respect when I talked to them. They never told me that maybe my rifle was out of spec or I didn't know what I was doing. They never said it was normal for movement and wanted it sent back as soon as possible so they could look at it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:34:06 AM EDT
Mine moved too..and I got another one, and it moved..so I sold them both and bought the KAC. Guess what? No movement.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:41:20 AM EDT
Yes, When I told them that my rifle was made by KAC they didn't want to dispute my rifle's specs. I hope they can find out what is wrong with it because I could of got a KAC and a GG&G mount. Just liked the looks of the ARMS better.I also had there products before and never had any problem with them.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:54:09 AM EDT
FWIW I have a 22M68 and a 19S ACOG that move. I have tried them on Colt, Bushmaster, and RRA uppers. I cut some shims out and placed between the upper and "buffer pad?". Now they are tight, but they're not right.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:15:00 PM EDT
yep, I tried everything. You folks that have them that think you don't have problems, grab that Aimpoint and give it a few twists..it'll get loose. This is just a bad product. The #40 is the best BIS on the market, IMHO, but these throw-lever things are an abortion. Get the Knight's mount and be happy. You could pound nails with it and it won't come loose.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:59:42 PM EDT
mine would not zero before i thread locked the screws on mine, they were coming lose when I fired. I havent had any problems with the tri-lock. mine is dead on.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 2:17:03 PM EDT
Nocompromise: good point about the locktite. Is it possible the folks with movement forgot to locktite their screws? I know I did and the damn thing wobbled OFF! Of course after being locktited it's a rock. I forgot all about that first day :)
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:26:11 PM EDT
It was loose at the base where it meets the flat top. I even asked them at ARMS if there was anthing I could do or change. They said no. I did locktite all of the allen screws. That has nothing to do with the problem that I am having.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:52:38 PM EDT
scottryan, Not trying to be jerk, But Im a little concerned about your statement in your first post above "I quickly sold the mount" It appears you sold someone a defective mount then, I certainly hope you disclosed this to the unfortunate fellow who bought it. I personnally have 3 #22M68s One an an Armalite and 2 on Bushys, and they have ZERO movement. cp
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:05:58 PM EDT
The 22M68 I had was loose on my Bushy M4. An Aimpoint QRP sovled the problem. The 22M68 is history...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:09:51 PM EDT
The throw levers are the most repeat on off set up out there, and that is due to the tension pulling down, not across like the rail crushers when attaching. The vertical up down spring action do act like shock absorbers on an auto, and also provide longer life to electro optics since they absorb shock waves from the weapon. They do not allow the rail to be indented by over tightening and that in itself is a big plus, or you can end up with a dented receiver dovetail like many have seen, that really screws up the repeatability next time a device needs to be attached. The throw levers are more than tight for the job they are designed to do, and if it moves because of a purposeful good shove, that has no effect on accuracy, as they do not move to the rear from shooting. ALL mounts attach by spring loaded friction that you can't duplicate in accuracy by hand with a thunb nut or allen wrench. They have been in military service throughout the world in all kinds of combat to include being on helicopter gun ships for support of US forces in the current conflict, desert storm, Samalia, Israeli Armed forces, etc. etc. etc. They were chosen by SF for the SPR sniper weapons. There are tens/hundreds of thousands of them in the field over many years serving on lasers, N.V.,thurmal, pistol grips, flashlights, sniper scopes, ACOGS, Aimpoints, etc. etc. Therefore to say they don't work is ridiculous and does make those who do know better, ask what kind of ax that some of the BS comments really derive from. If you have one that doesn't work from a very high production line, call the company that makes them as they do take care of anything reasonable that is asked of them. Very good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:21:57 PM EDT
Jack,the QRP's torque limiting design applies the same torque to the reciever regardless of it's width (with in reason). That's the strength of a thumbscrew and a weakness of the throw lever design. The 22M68 is a cool mount if it fits the particular reciever it's mated with. You're absolutely right about the optics moving forward when firing. I have no beef with ARMS but the QRP works better for me.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:38:55 PM EDT
The QRP's have a much bigger problem as ID'd by many end users. They get caught on everyting since they stick out over a 1/2 inch more than the levers. They get brocken or bent more often than anything else used. They get filled with sand and sound like a coffe mill and then the repeatabilty is shot. They get water in them and they freeze. Stealth wise it has been noted that they make the men sound like crickets when removing/attaching, not good. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:46:30 PM EDT
Around here, most, those that swear by ARMS, and some that swear at them, will tell you that if the mounts don't fit your rail, the rail's out of spec. not the other way around. That's interesting coming from a group that agrees on very little. KAC and ARMS are both excellent manufacturers w/ almost fanatical QC. All ARMS throw levers will move for and aft, like DEVL said, w/o losing "0" but star. to stearn is a problem. And DEVL, ARMS WILL take care of you. I snapped a throw lever and they sent out a new mt., no problem, just needs the SWAN emblem, and they'll fix you right up.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:58:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: The throw levers are the most repeat on off set up out there, and that is due to the tension pulling down, not across like the rail crushers when attaching. The vertical up down spring action do act like shock absorbers on an auto, and also provide longer life to electro optics since they absorb shock waves from the weapon. They do not allow the rail to be indented by over tightening and that in itself is a big plus, or you can end up with a dented receiver dovetail like many have seen, that really screws up the repeatability next time a device needs to be attached. The throw levers are more than tight for the job they are designed to do, and if it moves because of a purposeful good shove, that has no effect on accuracy, as they do not move to the rear from shooting. ALL mounts attach by spring loaded friction that you can't duplicate in accuracy by hand with a thunb nut or allen wrench. They have been in military service throughout the world in all kinds of combat to include being on helicopter gun ships for support of US forces in the current conflict, desert storm, Samalia, Israeli Armed forces, etc. etc. etc. They were chosen by SF for the SPR sniper weapons. There are tens/hundreds of thousands of them in the field over many years serving on lasers, N.V.,thurmal, pistol grips, flashlights, sniper scopes, ACOGS, Aimpoints, etc. etc. Therefore to say they don't work is ridiculous and does make those who do know better, ask what kind of ax that some of the BS comments really derive from. If you have one that doesn't work from a very high production line, call the company that makes them as they do take care of anything reasonable that is asked of them. Very good shootin, Jack
View Quote
I don't say they never work...I just say they don't work often enough that it's noticeable. As for putting them on a sniper weapon, no thanks. Why not just use Weavers? Same stability, and a quarter of the cost.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:33:38 PM EDT
You must be right, cause the military snipers and the majority shooters with them don't know what you do. LOL
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:08:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: I am going to guess but from the first reading of your post you never metioned how much the POI shifted. Did you even shoot the rifle to see how much it shifted? Did you place something in to act as a shim to hold it in place better to see if it really made your groups worse if it was loose? I am willing to bet you did not. So how do you know your POI was shifting due to the mount? Does anyone know if worn out friction pads can be replaced by ARMS if we send our mounts in?
View Quote
When shooting the POI would shift up. I put a thin piece of metal in the slot with the mount to keep it from moving. This solved the problem but defeated the purpose of having a quick detach mount as you would also have to keep track of the small piece of metal.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:11:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eaglecp: scottryan, Not trying to be jerk, But Im a little concerned about your statement in your first post above "I quickly sold the mount" It appears you sold someone a defective mount then, I certainly hope you disclosed this to the unfortunate fellow who bought it. I personnally have 3 #22M68s One an an Armalite and 2 on Bushys, and they have ZERO movement. cp
View Quote
The person I sold it to never complained.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:24:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 10:41:37 PM EDT by scottryan]
Another thing, A mount will move back after firing if it is loose enough. So for those of you that think a mount only can move forward, you are half correct. Here is the physics behind it. It's called Newton's First Law! When the rifle first recoils, the mount is not moving with respect to the ground. Thus the mount will initially slide forward on the gun. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. While the rifle is recoiling, the mount and gun are moving at the same velocity with respect to the ground. When the rifle stops recoiling, the mount is still moving with respect to the ground. Thus the mount will slide backward. This is the same principle that applies to your head moving forward when you suddenly stop in your car. Object in motion tend to stay in motion. Think about how your head moves in relationship with your car when you start and stop. Scott
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:47:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: You must be right, cause the military snipers and the majority shooters with them don't know what you do. LOL
View Quote
Yeah, you're right...I don't know what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:12:22 AM EDT
Thanks scottryan, it has started people to talking about the ARMS 22M68 mount. To let you know I have never had any problem with any thing from ARMS before and waitiing to see how they take care of my problem AKA customer service. I knew there was going to be a problem as soon as I tried to clamp the sight down with the lever. It went down way to easy with no resistance.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:21:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: You must be right, cause the military snipers and the majority shooters with them don't know what you do. LOL
View Quote
Yeah, you're right...I don't know what I'm talking about.
View Quote
Hey QS, what's it like to pop steel at 900m with one shot, at an originally unknown distance?? Cool huh? [;D]
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:47:13 AM EDT
I think some of you guys are missing my point I think that ARMS is one of the best. This may be a problem with just my mount.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:17:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: You must be right, cause the military snipers and the majority shooters with them don't know what you do. LOL
View Quote
Yeah, you're right...I don't know what I'm talking about.
View Quote
Hey QS, what's it like to pop steel at 900m with one shot, at an originally unknown distance?? Cool huh? [;D]
View Quote
er....lucky? Well, hell....I've been doing this wrong all along. Anyone want to trade me a set of #22Ms for my Mark 4 base and rings?
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:22:46 AM EDT
I've got a #22M68, two sets of #22L rings, two A3 AR uppers (1 Bushy and 1 RRA) and an ARMS rail for my FAL. I haven't had any problems moving the various optics/mounts between rifles. I've even removed optics to let friends try the optics and they've had no problems. I've removed and reattached my Aimpoint MANY times without any problems. Nevertheless, any company can turn out a lemon, but I've got no complaints about ARMS products. And if a company does turn out a lemon, I would expect them to promptly correct the problem. Sounds like ARMS has a good QC and CS reputation.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 1:44:50 PM EDT
Top Top