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Posted: 10/16/2003 8:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 8:11:53 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
As always, thanks for looking

I'm in the process of outfitting a new Colt M4 carbine. Originally I was going to go with an Aimpoint Comp M2 but now I'm not sure what to do. I like the idea of tritium vs batteries, ranging reticle and magnification of the ACOG.

That being said I'm not sure which optic is best for me based on how I'm going to task the carbine.

For the most part this M4 will be used for target practice to 150 meters, local competition, SHTF, and anti-skunk duties in my wife's tomato garden. The rub is that a few times per year my ARs are loaned to my father's police department and used as patrol rifles. This happens gnerally during busy holidays when a normal shift is augmented with extra LEOs (Memorial and Labor Day for example). In the patrol rifle role, which optic is more durable? Even though this M4 is my personal weapon I don't want to outfit it with equipment that is unsuitable for police work. I owe that much to the guys who may one day have to depend on it.

On the ACOG, can the tritium be replaced?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Link Posted: 10/16/2003 8:39:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 8:46:19 PM EDT by JTinIN]
For the few times per year that the rifle rides in the patrol car, one option would be to remove the optics (one of the ARMs QD mounts might be interesting), just to keep everything simple for the officers who most likely have not trained a great amount with your rifle & sights. Most of the "patrol car" AR type uses I have seen friends with are closer to a replacment for the shotgun and thus the iron sights work.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 9:53:51 PM EDT
Im the wrong one to ask, because I always think the ACOG is worth the extra money. Nothing else can do as much as BAC ACOGs do as well as they do it. Either is pleanty durable. If you did go ACOG, I would remove the optic when it got used by the police. ACOGs are not an optic you can pick up and master immediately. They take a little familiarization and practice to get used to. The Aimpoint "crushes" (thats for you Wes) the ACOG as far as simplicity goes. Anyone, can pick up an Aimpoint, at any time, and use it well. They are that simple. But their simplicity is also one of its limitations. The more complex ACOG takes some getting used to and time to understand what it can do. However, once you do understand, there's almost no limit to what you can do with it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 10:42:08 PM EDT
Since the ACOG takes a little while to get used too it probably won't be good to give officers that are going to use it a couple of times per year for the holidays or whatever. The dot sight would be easier for them to work with. Did you consider a Eotech? It cost less and doesn't need a seperate mount. It is also very easy to use. But since you are going to use this rifle yourself go with the ACOG and take it off when you loan it out.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 11:09:10 PM EDT
The Aimpoint depends on batteries, and I wouldnt trust my coworkers to remember to turn the damn thing off ever. I love my TA31, but the BAC took some getting used to (about 2 weeks into it the light came on for me). It would take practice to become proficient in using. For the purposes you stated, a lender, Id stick with irons.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 12:57:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 1:00:28 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
Guys-thank you very, very much for your advice and expertise [:)] If you don't mind I have a few more questions: -How do you feel about the ACOG TA31A? My eyesight isn't what it used to be and I'm thinking that the triangle might be better for me than the donut. -What kind of mount should I use to secure the ACOG to an A3 flattop receiver? -Do those of you with ACOGs use a BUIS like an ARMS#40? -If yes, are there any problems with co-witnessing to the irons? -Is the tritium power source on an ACOG replaceable? These optics are expensive and I'd like it to last as long as possible. -Is the light collector that sits on top of the optic fragile? Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 1:23:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 1:27:44 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
[b]How do you feel about the ACOG TA31A?[/b] I like the donut reticle of the TA31, but thats just me. [b]What kind of mount should I use to secure the ACOG to an A3 flattop receiver?[/b] The ARMS 19 or 19S throw lever mounts are outstanding. [b]Do those of you with ACOGs use a BUIS like an ARMS#40?[/b] Yes, the ARMS 40 is by far the best. [b]If yes, are there any problems with co-witnessing to the irons?[/b] Cowitnessing can be done with the Aimpoint, but not witht he magnified ACOGs. Thats why I like the ARMS 19 throw lever mounts. [b]Is the tritium power source on an ACOG replaceable?[/b] Yes, Trijicon can replace it. [b]Is the light collector that sits on top of the optic fragile?[/b] If the Israelis and the Marines that used them on top of M16A4s in Iraq dont break them, you and I probably wont either. My TA31 on an ARMS 19S with the ARMS 40: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=24926&iGalleryUnq=235&iImageUnq=16041[/img] And my Aimpoint on the ARMS 22M68 w/Cantilever extension: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=24926&iGalleryUnq=235&iImageUnq=12668[/img]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 1:49:38 AM EDT
Thank you Lumpy. The pics were very helpful too.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 5:38:40 AM EDT
Get both [:)] [img]www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/pc3f5c7d150836b5a48c371c0ca2a4770/fb1b7c19.jpg[/img] Different tools for different tasks. I prefer the ACOG, it does take getting used to but it gives you the benefit of being able to identify your target at distances where the Aimpoint's non-magnified optics become a handicap. As new-arguy posted once, in a shoot, no-shoot drill, this is crucial. For me, if I can't see what I'm shooting at, it's always no shoot. Even for the police I fail to see how they can justify shooting a bystander simply because their eyes failed them.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:00:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 6:01:25 AM EDT by Feedingcannibal]
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: For the most part this M4 will be used for target practice to 150 meters, local competition, SHTF, and anti-skunk duties in my wife's tomato garden.
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Just to clarify, the primary difference between the ACOG and the Aimpoint is magnification. The TA31 is a 4x magnification, the Aimpoint is zero. The Aimpoint is an excellent CQB sight and surpases the ACOG in this arena. Given your use of the rifle at 150 meters, I would go with the ACOG. Good CQB use, excellent use at 50+ meters. The second consideration, of course, is price. The TA31 will run you about $835 w/o a mount (add another $100). Aimpoints run about $350 w/o a mount. So, the Aimpoint is about half the price.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 7:25:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: -How do you feel about the ACOG TA31A? My eyesight isn't what it used to be and I'm thinking that the triangle might be better for me than the donut.
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I am also a donut guy; but lots of guys like the triangle. Its kind of a tomato-tomahto thing.
-What kind of mount should I use to secure the ACOG to an A3 flattop receiver?
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I'me very, very pleased with my ARMS #19S, very secure and short so it doesn't take up as much rail as the #19. Excellent return to zero (hasn't failed to return to a perfect zero yet despite many, many removals).
-Do those of you with ACOGs use a BUIS like an ARMS#40?
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Yes, I use the ARMS #40. Its a good sight - the only problem with it is that you either zero using the improved battlesight zero (50yds) with the large A2 aperture and your small aperture is very high at 100 or you zero using the 25m zero and deal with the issues that creates with trajectory.
-If yes, are there any problems with co-witnessing to the irons?
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What lumpy said - you can't cowitness magnified sights because the front sight is outside of the focal plane of the scope and isn't visible through the scope.
-Is the tritium power source on an ACOG replaceable? These optics are expensive and I'd like it to last as long as possible.
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12 year warranty on the tritium in the scope (and 12.5 year half-life for tritium). Tritium replacement for an ACOG currently costs $250.
-Is the light collector that sits on top of the optic fragile?
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The manual warns that DEET (the chemical in most bug repellent) will melt both the plastic protective tube and the fiberoptic light gathering inside of it. It is also common to scuff the plastic tube in use (looks like tiny hairline cracks in the clear plastic protective covering) where it sticks above the protective aluminum wings; but it doesn't affect use or operation of the ACOG.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:25:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 9:12:50 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
CJan_NH, for anything under 300 yards I recommend the Aimpoint. Battery life should never be an issue. I've had mine for almost three years with more than frequent use and I still do not need a replacement. Is the Trijicon worth the money? Sure it is, Trijicon makes a fine product. Do I feel you need the extra expense? No, I think the Aimpoint will cover all your needs perfectly.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 11:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 11:18:32 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
Thanks for your input guys [:)] Lumpy, I wanted to take a closer look at the BUIS and mount on your M4 so I enhanced one of your pics. Feel free to use it if you want: [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/DownloadAttach_copy.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 2:19:59 PM EDT
The advice you've been given is very good. Like it is with most everything, the more you practice and the more you train, the better you can do. The Aimpoint can probably be used easier and more effectively by the casual, semi-untrained user than the ACOG up to 100 yds. Beyond 100 yds, the lack of magnification makes it trickier (not impossible) and the ACOG shines. That said, I think I read a stat that the average police sniper range is 88 yds. FOR A SNIPER! Very doubtful that a patrol officer would use it further than 50 yds unless you are talking about a rural AO with [b]probable[/b] shots across open fields. Since an officer would only need to do that if he was taking fire across that same open field, highly unlikely. Long distance shots with the Aimpoint are possible. You need to sight it with the aiming point as the top of the dot, not the center. I took a skill builder class last weekend with an Aimpoint on a 14.5" M4gery. From "Sniper's Point", we had the opportunity to engage targets from 75yds to 540yds. Ranges were unmarked and we were given the distances afterwards. I was able to get 1st round hits on torso sized steel plates out to 450 yds. Got the 540 yd plate on my 2nd shot.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 9:07:46 PM EDT
For the limited ranges you are talking about, I would definately go for the Aimpoint. I had an ACOG and really liked it, but it was a wee bit slower than the Aimpoint. The magnification is so low powered that I found little if any accuracy improvement versus irons. With a magnified scope like the ACOG, you are always going to have problems with cheek weld and eye relief. The Aimpoint largely dispenses with those problems. I have had my Aimpoint for a year or two, and have yet to replace the batteries.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 9:20:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 9:20:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2003 9:34:58 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
The more I think about it, the more I think I should try both of them. Originally I was going to buy a 1x CompM2, but I could save a few bucks and buy a CompML2 since I don't own any night vision equipment anyway. The IR illuminator on my Sony HandyCam doesn't count [:)] Edit:
In my experience, no. But then again I don't go around dropping my gear or crashing through doors I just kicked down!
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Heh. Me either, but god only knows what the LEOs do when they borrow them [:)] As suggested I'll leave the optics at home when I loan them out. Thanks for your input Wave. And thanks also to B_Roberts, JTinIN, new-arguy, Lumpy, whywork40, Duffy, Feeding Cannibal, Dinger, Dorsai, and imposter for taking the time to walk me through this. These Aimpoints and ACOGs are a helluva lot more complicated than the old Leupold I have mounted on one of the other ARs.
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