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Posted: 9/16/2003 7:10:47 PM EDT
For my Bushy Superlight flat top I am looking at the ARMS40(can you insert a same plane aperature?), KAC300m, and G&G"s A2 and MAD.
Bear with me here a little, I'm pretty new to AR's.
First, the same plane aperature as described to me seems highly desirable. Basically, I won't have to practice two different sets of holdovers. Feel free to talk me out of the importance of same plane aperatures (SPA?).
The KAC only has one aperature right?
The MAD is same plane by definition.
I shot the G&G A2 with a same plane added today.
I am looking for advice on the merits of each sight in addition to the merits of SPA BUIS.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:32:16 PM EDT
Yes, you can replace the aperture in an ARMS #40 (or any other A1 or A2 type sight) with an XS same-plane aperture, available from Brownells. [url]www.brownells.com[/url] To me, anything other than a same-plane aperture is pretty useless on an elevation-adjustable sight, such as the A2 types.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:56:59 PM EDT
Only one reply...was my question too murky? The Zardoz was the only one to reply, and I think he may have misspoke. It would seem like a same plane aperature sight would be highly if not soley desireable on a rear BUIS that has no elevation adjustment. (that's what you meant, I think, Big Z.) OK, here's a new question: Are all of you ARMS #40 devotees switching out your aperatures for same plane aperatures?
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 8:24:15 PM EDT
I know it doesnt help but i switched out mine for a standard A2 arp...Thinking bout trying an A1 in there...Like i said i know it doesnt help but at least you get a free bump and i can track it...............UNDERDOG
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 9:03:23 PM EDT
"Free bump." Some kind of 70's disco dance?
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 9:18:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 9:19:09 PM EDT by underdog75]
No bro. my reply "bumps" your post to the top of the list
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 9:21:06 PM EDT
I have the same plane rear sight in all my ARs now, including my ARMS 40.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 12:13:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 12:15:15 AM EDT by Zardoz]
Actually, I meant exactly what I posted. On an elevation ADJUSTABLE rear sight, what good is a flip-type aperture where the large and small apertures are on different planes?
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 12:53:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 10:20:38 AM EDT by Klinger_04]
Originally Posted By tberg: I am looking at the ARMS40(can you insert a same plane aperature?),
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yes
The KAC only has one aperature right?
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edited: its got two arps
The MAD is same plane by definition.
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i don't know about by definition (since MAD stands for multiple aperture device), but yes only one plane for each arp.
I am looking for advice on the merits of each sight in addition to the merits of SPA BUIS.
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i can't tell you pro/cons of all the sights you listed because I've only used the #40, but I can tell you this: i think that the advantage of a SPA is really only found in rear sights that have no elevation adj. (like the ARMS #40, KAC, GG&G MAD or GG&G A2 flip-up)... Because a regular A2 sight or A3 removable carry handle sight (or any sight for that matter which has a regular 3/6 or 3/8 sight wheel and an A2 arpeture) can be used w/the improved battle zero which allows you to use a regular A2 arpeture, but you can adjust them so that the small and large arpetures are on the same plane... so what I'm trying to say is, if you want a flip-up rear sight (which you previously stated that you do), SPA is the way to go... but if you use an A2 upper or a removable carry handle on your flat-top, then it dosen't really matter as you can adjust either of thoes to do the same using the improved battle zero. hope i helped!! otherwise; my bad...
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 6:58:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 7:05:45 AM EDT by ltmdpd]
I can see the reasoning of a same plane aperture on an adjustable sight, but why would you prefer one on a non-adjustable such as the 40? By having different planes (giving you two different distances) doesn't that give you an advantage/ for close (large aperture) and distance? Also am I off base? On an A2, you have the small (different plane) for 300 - 800 and the large for 0 - 200? While I currently have the SPA Trijicon on two of mine, I actually thought that might be a disadvantage.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 10:04:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 10:17:35 AM EDT by Klinger_04]
Originally Posted By ltmdpd: I can see the reasoning of a same plane aperture on an adjustable sight, but why would you prefer one on a non-adjustable such as the 40? By having different planes (giving you two different distances) doesn't that give you an advantage/ for close (large aperture) and distance? Also am I off base? On an A2, you have the small (different plane) for 300 - 800 and the large for 0 - 200? While I currently have the SPA Trijicon on two of mine, I actually thought that might be a disadvantage.
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well, i gues it can go both ways... the ibz (impoved battle zero) allows you to move the small arp down to the same plane as the large arp, and therefore use your small arp for the 50yrd-200yrd but with more percision. then you switch back to your ghost ring, move the elevation wheel, and use that for 50-200 also... (which is why I like the regular A2 arps [i]if[/i] they're hooked up with a regular elevation wheel) w/a SPA, you sight it in 50-200(or whatever you want) then either arp will be zeroed to the same POI (point of impact), without fiddling with the elevation wheel. which is good if you're like me and you want to use a non-elevation adj. rear sight w/the smaller, more percise arp for close stuff, but wanted to keep the option of fliping to the large ghost ring, and still keep it set to the same POI. also, i wouldn't want to put a SPA on a elevation adj. sight because then the 3/4/5/6/7/8 marks no longer work.. (unless both arps are on the default small arperture's plane. in that case you could use the 3/8 marks, but when you switch to the ghot ring it will now be 300m+ sight thats huge as hell! you could then use the same mod that the IBZ uses to lower your sight plane, which turns both arps into closerange... but doing the whole thing would be walking in a big circle to get to the same place as the A2 dual-arp will get you to.. and the only advantage is that you get a 300m+ ghost ring sight that you'll never use..) but thats just how I see the glass.. i do see the point you make about using a regular dual plane arp on a stationary rear sight. this would allow the normal close-range/night-time ghost ring, and a 300m longrange arp. but the reason that I don't like that is because you have to use your ghost ring all the time for work inside of 300, and i want a more percise arp for that. but, if you don't need it percise (ex: shooting at people) then its not a problem at all. and if your using it as a back-up sight for your optics, then there's probably not a need for a percise-close-range arp. therefore an A2 dual-plane would be in order (one for close, one for far, it makes sense right??). but for me, even on a BUIS, I'm gona want a SPA so i can have that close-range perciseness, and also have a ghost ring thats hits the same POI. (but see I never plan on using a sight like that for 300m+.. i would want something like a regular elevation-adj., dual plane A2 for something like that because I can crank it to 300m, 400m, 500m, etc.. to put it more simpe: advantage of having a SPA on a stationary rear sights is that you can use the smaller arp w/more accuracy. disadvantage of having a SPA on a stationary rear sight is that you're only sighted in to one POI. (if thats really a major disadvantage.. most guns are only sighted to one POI. aren't they??) advantage of having a dual plane A2 on a stationary rear sight is that you get two arps for two ranges. disadvantage of having a dual plane A2 on a stationary rear sight is that you have to use the ghost ring for inside 300m, and it's not very percise. edited to add: i must of missed something... can you tell me what the advantage of having a SPA on a elevation adjustable sight is?? also, an off topic question; are all Trijicon sights SP? they're the ones w/tritium right? if they are the tritium ones, do you notice a difference in size of the arps as compared to the size of regular A2 arps. I heard that the tritium ones were a tad larger that regular stuff, but i was wondering how noticable it actually was.. thanks in advance
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 10:07:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ltmdpd: While I currently have the SPA Trijicon on two of mine, I actually thought that might be a disadvantage.
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Are you saying you have a samp plane rear aperature with Tritium inserts? I did not know this was available. Where did you get it. The KAC rear sight has two aperatures in the same plane. Its just an insert that turns the large aperatre into a small aperature and it is easily lost in the field. Why would you get that BUIS over the 40? The MAD blocks a lot of your field of view. If I had to get something super low profile I would get the KAC over the MAD.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 12:38:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 12:39:38 PM EDT by ltmdpd]
I purchased the tritium sight sets from Bushmaster, but they are made by Trijicon (Model CP-25, green all around. Trijicon recommended the green, and has a longer life than the other colors) E-mails through both companies indicated the rear aperture with the tritium dual dots are same plane aperture.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 12:47:49 PM EDT
btt for future referance
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 7:21:52 PM EDT
Hey you guys are all right. OK, scratch the MAD because it blocks field of view. I thought the KAC was just a small aperature from looking at their web site, it looked simple. Scratch it too. Brings us back to ARMS40 or G&G A2. I like the simplicity of having the same plane on both aperatures without having to thumb the wheel. After K4's spiel, I like the idea of the small aperature for precision work up close. The ghost ring I guess would be handy for night back-up? So with either the ARMS 40 or G&G A2 is it difficult to swap teh aperatures? Is there a vendor here who could sell either one with the aperatures already installed? Is there any major advantage for the ARMS 40 over the G&G A2? C'mon along folks as we disco back to the top.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 7:37:24 PM EDT
The 40 is spring loaded to stay up if it gets hit the GG&G is not.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:09:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: The 40 is spring loaded to stay up if it gets hit the GG&G is not.
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Both the GGG MAD and A2 lock in the up and down postions with a detent button. They corrected the shortcoming of these sights some time ago. I, personally, use an ARMS 40, but considered the GGG sights as they have a lower profile for mounting optics.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:27:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 8:31:42 PM EDT by Klinger_04]
Originally Posted By tberg: I like the simplicity of having the same plane on both aperatures without having to thumb the wheel.
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remember, there are no wheels to do the thumbing to on these type of BUIS's. these are not elevation adj. which is my reasoning behind the SPA
The ghost ring I guess would be handy for night back-up?
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yes, and for when you have to use your gas mask [:D] (if you plan on doing shooting during bio-attacks) edited to add: and for defensive situations (if you ever plan on using your rifle for that type of thing)
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 8:38:12 PM EDT
No elevation wheel, right, that's why I want the same plane aperatures. Do I need to have this aperature set installed or can a mechanical moron such as myself do it?
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 2:36:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tberg: No elevation wheel, right, that's why I want the same plane aperatures. Do I need to have this aperature set installed or can a mechanical moron such as myself do it?
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That's an excellent question, tberg. I hope someone can answer it. I know that I didn't want to tackle it, so I had GG&G install one in their A2 flip-up for me. I'm very pleased with the results! I don't know if ARMS would do it for you, but I would hope so! By the way . . . the improved battlesight zero mentioned above is the way to go!
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 3:18:31 PM EDT
The ARMS 40 is the best BUIS (without the stupid cut aperture). Just replace it with the Ashley. I also have a GGG MAD that I use on an application where I don't have room for the ARMS 40.
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 10:36:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tberg: No elevation wheel, right, that's why I want the same plane aperatures. Do I need to have this aperature set installed or can a mechanical moron such as myself do it?
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Its not a big deal. I don't remember well enough to give you the steps but as i recall i used the TM to get the sight disassembly instructions cause other than the lack of the elev adj wheel its an A2 sight.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:26:33 AM EDT
I use the Ashley on everything, BUIS included.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 10:22:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tberg: Do I need to have this aperature set installed or can a mechanical moron such as myself do it?
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found it! look here for instructions [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=170474[/url]
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 5:20:14 PM EDT
Aww, that's too cool. Thanks K4 and everyone else. TomB
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