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Posted: 9/10/2003 10:50:17 AM EDT
I have a carry handle mounted 4X20 scope on my Oly Plinker and was out re-zeroing it the other day. Something a friend brought up to me while blasting triggered me to post this. He was so dependent on using his optics that it was sad. He even admits it.

I don't know about you guys, but i see more and more of my friends relying on their optics as there PRIMARY source for engaging targets....in my world thats a BIG no-no.

For instance, the 4X20, i shoot better at 100 yds WITHOUT using the damn thing rather than using it....its no good to 100 yds IMO. I know 4X20 is crappy magnification and i know for competition purposes (when nobody is shooting back at you) a high power scope would be the deal BUT I can engage a target quicker with the irons (A1 sights to boot) then with any scope or optic out there.....now I know you Trijicon boys, etc are gonna jump on this, but prove to me why your red dot sights are your first source...if they are. I have fired thousands of rounds using various optics...scopes, red-dot's etc....on multiple tactical rifles, M4A1's(real deal), AR-15's, M-16's etc, etc...and i personally am a better ALL AROUND* shot with the irons.

Any thoughts on this?

Also, not too many guys in my platoon are hell bent on optics....my opinion is in the majority with them also.

So, let me in on your thoughts
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 6:15:20 PM EDT
I agree with you and the last time my vision was checked, the doctor stopped me at 20/15. By the way I have the colt 3x20 scope and damn if I can see any adjustment in it no matter how much I turn the knobs. What's up with that?
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:07:33 AM EDT
You wont get an arguement from me on the benefits of relying primarily on irons. If you cant shoot good with irons to begin with then its doubtfull you will excell with anything else. Both rely on concentration and form. Nothing I can write will ever be able to put in perspective what combat or war is like. Seconds seem like hours. Hours seem like years. The guy next to you is wounded or dead. Loud noises, explosions, yelling, sweating so bad its like your weapon doesnt want to stay in your hands or shouldered, like its covered in CLP, all the distractions of the grave situation surrounding you. Yet you must perform. It's confusion on a scale that is not measurable. Time is at a standstill. Difficult to describe all tactical scenarios because rarely do things happen like clock work. But your survival is whats on your mind currently and nothing else. And this is when instinct/ training allows you to perform when all your senses tell you to run, hide, be safe. Let someone else be the one to react or I'll back him up sometime later when the shooting stops. It dont work that way in real life. When you are put in a situation where your shots mean life or death for you and your comrades, aiming aids can be and were a deciding factor for myself. No doubt in my mind. That doesnt mean you are going to shoot your best. Far from it. But you will have a technological advantange over your opponent. Use that technology to your benefit and in most cases you are faster to shoot. I will always advocate open sights over any device you can mount on a weapon to ensure a reliable weapon. I got a chance to use a variety of weapon sights in Iraq. From my red dot to night vision. Even a PAS-12 thermal weapon sight. My Aimpoint M68 did its job by offering me the security of reassurance. I knew that I didn't need to align the front and rear sight. Just put the dot on target. I was confident that my first shots were going exactly where I wanted them. And there were lots of guy's in my unit very envious of my however small advantage. Reliance on optics to enhance ones ability is something everyone should move into sometime during their shooting career. Its just another avenue to explore with ones skills. But I do agree that if you can keep your basic rifleman skills honed then everything else you toss in will make you that much better of a shooter. Speed is life and I'm not talking aircraft.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 11:00:35 AM EDT
I don't know about you guys, but i see more and more of my friends relying on their optics as there PRIMARY source for engaging targets....in my world thats a BIG no-no.
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What world is that?
I can engage a target quicker with the irons (A1 sights to boot) then with any scope or optic out there.
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Then you are an anomaly; because that just isn't true for most people. Also, you say you've used a wide variety of optics; but that this still holds true for you with Aimpoints, EOtechs, ACOGs, etc? Have you timed yourself and actually done some comparisons or is this just your gut feeling on it?
prove to me why your red dot sights are your first source...if they are.
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How do you prove to somebody else who can shoot better without optics than with that this isn't true for you? Optics help make me a better shooter. Instead of trying to line up three objects (target, front sight, rear aperture) at three distances with eyes that only focus at one distance, I just put the red dot on the target an go. Add in magnification (like the ACOGs) and I can actually identify what I am shooting at past 200 instead of having to be talked onto a low-contrast target that blurs entirely as I focus on the front sight. Not only that; but I still have irons that I can choose to use any time I want - so I give up nothing to use optics as my primary.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 11:04:35 AM EDT
I have gotten rid of the magnified optics on my ARs for pretty much the same reason. I shoot as well with irons. However, I now have cowitnessed Aimponts mounted for two reasons. First, in low light conditions irons suck. Second, at short range I think the Aimpoint is faster. Aimpoint for short range and the dark, irons for medium to long range.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 11:17:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 9:06:44 AM EDT
Bartholomew...good arguments!! Sorry its been so long, I have been busy. Anyway, first and foremost, i have to state that "to each there own"...i mean whatever makes you most effective on the field is what you need to be doing/using IMO. I really can't describe/explain the feeling, but here is a non-related type example. When I'm driving..even if its 100 degrees out, i still feel the need for the windows to be down...I have to "be in touch" with outside...its weird, but I have to hear and "feel" the road and my surroundings....When i use optics, its kind of the same as the windows being closed for me. I know...weird analogy and its not like a paranoid/clausterphobic/tunnel vision type thing. Anyway, to directly answer some of your questions. My world: Combat experienced Marine I have used ALL of the optics u mentioned, and i should say that there DEFINETLY are places/times where i would use/need them...like low light, etc. But my initial rant was using them as PRIMARY (where did my irons go???) sources.. Gut feeling...i have NOT timed myself...u make a good point b/c gut feeling isnt always right (although i think it is FOR ME in this case) and finally, any optic that will allow you to retain the irons, or allow for a back up sight configuration is ABSOLUTELY the way to go...any edge (technology, etc) one can have over the enemy is one that needs to be taken advantage of...i agree completly. SO in that sense.... all the optics you mentioned should be run on the rifles if possible. My concern I guess is just watching people getting too "friendly" with them.
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