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Posted: 7/22/2003 7:42:42 PM EDT
Years ago a custom gunmaker specializing in making light-weight rifle told me of a technique I have used with aluminum or steel "weaver" rings. A dab of "5 minute" epoxy on the top and bottom of the scope would keep the scope from moving under the most brutal of recoil. The epoxy would adhere to the imperfections of the scope and the rings and make for a great recoil prevention seal that you could still break and pick off with your thumb nail when you were done with that set up.

Anyone else ever use it?

Any other techniques used out there?
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 9:01:59 PM EDT
Never heard of such a thing. No scope I have ever used, saw or heard about had imperfections that glue would be needed. Genuine Weaver rings have an alum saddle and spring steel top and grab the ring so well that they don't move and were the prefered ring in olimpic shooting. No ring worth a damn needs glue, just proper tightening. Cheap ass all alum K-mart type rings might need glue, but I think the gue would give way after a few rounds when the alum cheapo rings start to stretch under screw tention. Jack
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:05:14 PM EDT
Sorry 3rdtk and with all due respect, you sound like I was making this up. I spoke to another custom gunsmith on this and maybe your age (this is NOT a shot or insult) is showing on this... he tells me [u]"years"[/u] ago *SOME* competition shooters (where rifle weight was measured) would use the glue technique. The reasoning was keep / concentrate the "beef" in the action and barrel for maximum stiffness then minimize where you could. Therefore some of these competitors used a similar "glue" technique to maximize in their weigh class by going "flimsy" on the rings. My custom made light-weight hunting rifles were made in the mid 1980's. They are very light-weight (even by today's standards and group extremely well in spite of it - my lightest rifle is a .284 600mod Rem with a Kalhes 4x weighed just 5lbs 14oz.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:28:51 PM EDT
Lion, 3rdtk is a very experienced gun savvy member of this communality, he might be opinionated, but he do know his craft and he is very well respected on this board. I know you mean no insult, but I have not heard of this method, and I have been in the shooting business for close to twenty years.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:39:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 3:41:06 PM EDT by KevinB]
I would agree with 3rdtk (shudder) and SMGLee. I have been shooting for the last 19years and have never heard of anyone doing this, and I shoot with some 80+yrs old folk when shooting Palma/TR, and you get to hear things (and they can still do wind better than me damnit). If it were so brittle as to flake off with your thumb the shock and vibration (as 3rdtk mentioned) would have it off in no time. Furthermore properly made rings would not have a palce for the glue to go... It would interefer with the proper fit and function of the scope ring. No offence intended but, some 'custom gunmakers' are not great sources of info. Kevin
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:55:46 PM EDT
OK guys, I'm not f*cking crazy. I never ran with the *big* dogs but I've been a shooter, reloader for over 33 yrs and I've dumped money into weird stuff. Check these two urls out. [url]http://www.stanley36.freeserve.co.uk/lapping.htm[/url] [url]http://www.paintballzone.com/sniper_scope_sidemount.htm[/url] [url]http://www.stanley36.freeserve.co.uk/netscape.htm[/url] [url]http://www.funsupply.com/airguns/airscopes.html[/url] [url]http://www.steyrscout.org/steyrtip.htm[/url] "Mounting Steyr Scope Rings Because of the unusual construction of the Steyr scope rings the factory initially considered a jig for mounting the scope. However, they found it easier to first slide the bases on the mounting rail. Then align with the cross bolts / slots and apply a little bit of glue on both bearing surfaces and bed the scope on the bases in proper alignment and eye relief while the glue is still soft. Wait until the glue has dried, then slide off the assembly. Apply glue on the contact areas on the top of the scope / rings and clip on the rings, align them and tighten the 4 screws carefully from beneath. This tip courtesy Steyr-Mannlicher" It seems it was a more saavy practice in the air/pneumatic gun world. But, there are others somewhere in this 77,000 ARF.com gun community that might actually have some experience or hands on with it.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:44:56 PM EDT
Maybe that is why Steyr has been out of business. doh!! [:)] You got me on that one.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 9:11:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: Genuine Weaver rings have an alum saddle and spring steel top and grab the ring so well that they don't move and were the prefered ring in olimpic shooting.
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So, Weaver rings are decent? I've got an M1A NM w/ Springfield 6-20x56 Scope, 3rd Gen SA mount. I got weaver rings cause that's all i could find locally in 30 mm. I've been hearing that weaver mounts are crummy. This is the first i've heard that they are good. Thoughts?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 9:34:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 9:35:13 PM EDT by JTinIN]
Use to install scopes for a few years in southern Indana did not have any problems with the Weaver style rings. Even seen a few used in the very old days on bench guns. However, the top strap of the actual Weaver ring tends to rotate the scope slight as the strap screws are run in, thus causing installation issues keeping the cross hair's "level".
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:09:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: Genuine Weaver rings have an alum saddle and spring steel top and grab the ring so well that they don't move and were the prefered ring in olimpic shooting.
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So, Weaver rings are decent? I've got an M1A NM w/ Springfield 6-20x56 Scope, 3rd Gen SA mount. I got weaver rings cause that's all i could find locally in 30 mm. I've been hearing that weaver mounts are crummy. This is the first i've heard that they are good. Thoughts?
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NAM- My thread is not saying "Weaver style" rings are crap. "Weaver style" refers to BASE mounting, as opposed to the LEUPOLD / Redfield mounting system. Weaver makes a few different types of rings. The type that have screws securing ONLY one side can be problematic just from the fact you have to guess where to align the scope before torquing down that one side INCREASING the probablity of a poor and frustrating installation. [url]http://www.natchezss.com/cartimages/WE49030.jpg[/url] These rings are NOT the ones I am referring to though. The point of my statement was not GLUING like in to "mate for LIFE", but as a vehicle to increase the "friction" between scope and ring. Weaver rings are GOOD, type selected could be a major pain. Once again, the one sided screw variety which I *THINK* you are refering to are a crap design to work with.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:26:41 AM EDT
i understand what you are saying, and i do have the type shown in your pic. However, we have conflicting reports again. you say bad, he says good. I know aligning the scope can be a major bitch. That aside, do i need to be looking for something better?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:46:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM: i understand what you are saying, and i do have the type shown in your pic. However, we have conflicting reports again. you say bad, he says good. I know aligning the scope can be a major bitch. That aside, do i need to be looking for something better?
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Yes I say those in the pix are "bad". Just to simplify - I just bought a pair of WEAVER SURE-GRIP rings. They have two screws on each side, if you can find them or order them over the internet I think you will be very happy with them. I am not using *glue* with these, when ON THE OCCASION I used *glue* it was back in 1985 and I worked fine. Just broke the seal on that scope and now installing it on my .22LR DPMS A22. Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:51:52 AM EDT
well... I happen to have a set of B-square rings i picked up from CTD. They were only $7 or so..but they have 2 screws on both sides. I'm sorry.... maybe i should start my own thread on this. I don't want to start sometihng here in your thread... As for the glue... i've never heard of it. Sounds like a duck tape and chicken wire way of getting things to work. But you know that they say.... if it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid [;)] We all do tihngs different ways. As long as it gets the job done, who has the right to jsudge the way we do it. [:)]
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:14:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM: well... I happen to have a set of B-square rings i picked up from CTD. They were only $7 or so..but they have 2 screws on both sides. I'm sorry.... maybe i should start my own thread on this. I don't want to start sometihng here in your thread... As for the glue... i've never heard of it. Sounds like a duck tape and chicken wire way of getting things to work. But you know that they say.... if it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid [;)] We all do tihngs different ways. As long as it gets the job done, who has the right to jsudge the way we do it. [:)]
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I sent you mail, hope it helps. Like your BIO statement too "... never get out of the boat..." - was thinking of that just the other day. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 2:24:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 8:16:53 AM EDT
LionDog- I use PURPLE LOC-TITE on some rings. A little dab will do ya- it spreads out a lot, as it's going in to a good fit. I don't see the scope moving around on a AR-15 as a big problem. Places people talk about this a lot are Airgun Silhouette (those spring rifles tear scopes apart worse than anything- they reciprocate in recoil. First forward (!) then back, then forward... Spprrrooooinnnnnnggg.) I shoot big bore handguns (well, just the little pups for me- .454 Casull and .357 Maximum) but folks swear by the rail sets made by JD Jones- who tries to get 3 or even 4 rings around a scope to keep it from shifting. You can spend $200+ on rings. I spend $45 for a nice Redfield set, and 5 cents worth of loctite. You should see what some of us nuts are doing with the Savage MLII muzzleloader. That's the one expressly and exclusively designed for smokeless powder. It's proof tested to over 200,000 psi- so I want to hear no crap from anyone on this. If I blow myself up, I take responsibility. How about 250 grain bullets at 2600fps? Recoil is stout. Scopes do shift! Well... loctite 'em. I was hesitant to do it at first, but my pistolsmith reassured me. He is an ex-AMU armorer, and a High Master shooter. His reasoning is that scopes are meant to be looked through, not at. So if you get a smudge on your scope, UNDER THE RINGS (fer gods sake), and that bothers you... then let your scope slip. The Ulradot is loctited in to my bullseye gun, hasn't budged in years of shooting. Why take it off if it works? The scopes come off with no real hassle, the loctite flakes off. Epoxy will do the same. If you want to use epoxy, I think it will do the same job. TRY IT AND SEE. Now you have advise from expert gunsmiths, and just some dude who it works for. It will cost you 5 cents to try it and see if it works for you. And if it works for you, it works for you. Personally, I won't spend $90 on rings. If it works for you, it works for you. For me, my scope shifting is something I do not have to contend with, once my guns are tweaked in. Pete
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 1:11:20 PM EDT
Lion_Dog, Are you sure it was epoxy? PaulE is on to something. My local smith, who I've learned a lot from over the years, uses rosin when mounting scopes. When you remove the scope, it leaves behind an brownish-redish epoxy looking material that flakes off as you've described. The compression between the rings and the scope causes the rosin powder to melt (not literally) together. It becomes a very thin syrup colored glass. It just sounds too similar to what you've described. -Red-
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 4:56:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2003 4:57:46 PM EDT by G35]
Well choke my chicken..... I read this thread two days ago. Unrelated, I buy a pair of scope rings last night. I am reading the instructions, and what do I see ??!! Choke my chicken [shock] [img]http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL33/1216349/2303971/30346008.jpg[/img] [img]http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL33/1216349/2303971/30346005.jpg[/img] [img]http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL33/1216349/2303971/30345995.jpg[/img] BTW, I am not advocating the use of epoxy. I will not be epoxying my rings.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 8:44:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Redhook: Lion_Dog, Are you sure it was epoxy? PaulE is on to something. My local smith, who I've learned a lot from over the years, uses rosin when mounting scopes. When you remove the scope, it leaves behind an brownish-redish epoxy looking material that flakes off as you've described. The compression between the rings and the scope causes the rosin powder to melt (not literally) together. It becomes a very thin syrup colored glass. It just sounds too similar to what you've described. -Red-
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Yes, I mixed it myself (5 min. epoxy) like 13 yrs. ago. I just pulled the same rings off to mount that very same Leupold 3x9 Compact on my DPMS A22. Only thing left on the scope was a very light shadow of grey. I truly believe all this epoxy really did was to act like a "rosin" and give a better grip. There are no ring marks other than what I just stated.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 1:11:53 AM EDT
Lion_Dog, If you mixed it, then it has to be epoxy. Quite a few years ago, I had my smith mount my first big ticket scope for fear that I'd screw something up. A few months later, I had to remove the scope and noticed this stuff in the rings. My first instinct told me it was epoxy. But when I asked him, he told me it was rosin. I've mounted my own scopes every since and I typically use rosin on bigger caliber rifles. But, the rosin has never damaged the finish on any of my scopes and none of them have ever moved. -Red-
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 1:14:31 AM EDT
Just curious....where does one find rosin? THe only time i've ever heard of it's use is in solder in the core. If this even remotely helps this is something i'd liek to look into.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 5:21:09 AM EDT
I just use a drop of blue loctite on the bottom ring as insurance. Using it anyway on the screws.Easy to remove if and when necessary.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 9:50:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2003 9:52:25 PM EDT by Redhook]
Nam, You can use violin bow rosin. Its a very fine powder that has a light red or brown color. Check out your local music (instrument) or guitar store. -Red-
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